> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # Andrew Jenkins (Traitors) on Surviving Death and Rebuilding Life - URL: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/andrew-jenkins-traitors-on-surviving-death-and-rebuilding-life/ - Published: 2025-11-21T17:15:00.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-24T10:06:16.000Z - Description: Pronounced dead at 21 after a car crash, The Traitors UK finalist Andrew Jenkins on the coma, the comeback, and a 1,200km walk for mental health. - Author: Elliott King - Tags: Andrew Jenkins, episode, Season 2, #ep-12 **Pronounced dead at 21\. A finalist on The Traitors at 45\. What happened in between?** [Andrew Jenkins](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/andrew-jenkins/), The Traitors UK series two finalist, joins host and producer [Aleksandra King](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/aleksandra-king/) on The BEYOND Podcast for a raw conversation about surviving death, rebuilding a life, and why vulnerability is a strength rather than a weakness. ## Episode summary Andrew begins with the crash: pronounced dead at 21, then a coma, brain damage, and the slow defiance of learning to walk again when the doctors' expectations said otherwise. By his own account he let the trauma define him for more than two decades, and the first half of the conversation is about what that actually looked like from the inside: unhappy success, living behind a mask, and the social expectations that keep the mask on. Taking it off, he says plainly, is scary, which is exactly why so many people never do. The turning came through mindset and movement: he walked 1,200 kilometres across four countries for mental health, and eventually quit a secure corporate career to find purpose in the work he does now. He and Aleksandra dig into toxic masculinity, family love languages and the suppression of emotion, and how a generation of men was taught that feeling anything was failure. Then comes The Traitors: the ultimatum that got him on the show, the internal conflict of playing a game built on deception, herd mentality and the psychological pressure of the round table, and the finale itself, where he lost the money but, in his telling, found pride. It closes at the deep end: the value of lived experience, processing the grief of a parent, the perfect-life facade, and a suicide-prevention message he delivers with the weight of someone who has stood at the edge of it. His conclusion is the quiet thesis of the whole hour: vulnerability, the thing he once read as weakness, turned out to be the strength. > “I thought vulnerable was weakness years ago, but it's not.”– *Andrew Jenkins* ## Key takeaways - Pronounced dead at 21, Andrew let the trauma define him for more than two decades before the rebuild began. - He walked 1,200 kilometres across four countries for mental health, and left a secure corporate career to find purpose. - Success can be a mask: unhappy achievement behind a perfect-life facade is its own kind of crisis. - The Traitors taught him about herd mentality and pressure; he lost the money but found pride. - Vulnerability is not weakness: taking the mask off is scary, and it is also the way through. ## Key chapters | Chapter | Timestamp | | ------------------------------------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------ | | Pronounced dead at 21: the car crash that changed everything | [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw) | | Defying doctors, and learning to walk again after brain damage | [04:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=280s) | | The power of mindset, and walking 1,200km for mental health | [10:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=630s) | | Unhappy success: living behind a mask, and social expectations | [17:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=1040s) | | Quitting a secure corporate career to find true purpose | [22:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=1360s) | | Toxic masculinity, family love languages, and suppressing emotion | [27:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=1620s) | | Joining The Traitors: the ultimatum, and internal conflict | [33:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=2000s) | | Herd mentality, and the psychological pressure of the round table | [38:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=2300s) | | The Traitors finale: losing the money but finding pride | [43:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=2620s) | | The value of lived experience, and processing the grief of a parent | [48:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=2920s) | | The “perfect life” facade: suicide prevention, and final advice | [56:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw&t=3390s) | ## The guest Andrew Jenkins is a The Traitors UK series two finalist and mental health advocate, whose story begins with being pronounced dead at 21 after a devastating car crash. His full background is on his guest profile. [Andrew Jenkins's guest profile](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/andrew-jenkins/) ## Where to listen - [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w12E9TOvxrw) - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-with-aleksandra-king/id1786173140) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/0haFQYUTnEn0fpr0LQYlhH) - [YouTube Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=MPSPPL3iQHE-qteJING9jXVVuVUdDa-9qqer7J) - [RSS feed](https://anchor.fm/s/10464b2ac/podcast/rss) ## Related reading Read the companion insights on the site: [From Near-Fatal Crash to The Traitors Finalist: A Story of Resilience](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/from-near-fatal-crash-to-the-traitors-finalist-a-story-of-resilience/). And: [Andrew Jenkins and the Mental Health Advocacy Platform Built on Post-Traitors Fame](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/andrew-jenkins-and-the-mental-health-advocacy-platform-built-on-post-traitors-fame/). ## Transcript #### Read the full episode transcript ### Cold open *The episode opens with a trailer montage of clips lifted from later in the conversation, over music.* 00:00:00 **Andrew Jenkins:** I let my trauma define me for probably 24 years. 00:00:05 **Aleksandra King:** Meet Andrew Jenkins. Some of you will know him from The Traitors UK– Season 2 finalist. But what most people don't know is that he was pronounced dead at 21 after a devastating car crash. 00:00:21 **Andrew Jenkins:** I– I don't want to do it– I'm an honest person, good values– I didn't want to– I didn't want to manipulate people, twist things and that. 00:00:28 **Andrew Jenkins:** Lost my self-worth, my confidence– you know, failure– I thought failure was a bad thing growing up. 00:00:33 **Andrew Jenkins:** If you've got an emotion in your body, especially if it's upset or anger– rather than trying to push it down all the time, which normally happens– by doing that, that makes the emotion stronger and stronger and stronger, and it reconfirms that emotion. 00:00:47 **Aleksandra King:** So doctors told you at some point as well, from what I've understood, that you wouldn't be able to walk again. 00:00:55 **Andrew Jenkins:** Keep working hard, keep believing in yourself, and you will achieve anything in life you want. 00:01:00 **Aleksandra King:** This is the story of his physical and mental comeback, and what it really takes to rebuild a life. ### Interview 00:01:11 **Aleksandra King:** Andrew, it's going to be pretty easy to introduce you, because everyone's going to know you from The Traitors, and The Traitors is one of the most popular programmes on television today– not just in the UK– so that's really kicking off. And people will know you from that, but most people won't necessarily know your backstory, and there is a lot to you. 00:01:36 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah. 00:01:37 **Aleksandra King:** And a lot has happened that has affected you, and has affected how you lead your life today, and what you're doing out there in the world. You've been impacted by certain things, and I want to go through them, and these are things that many will relate to, especially as far as mental health is concerned. But I'm going to let the story unfold as I ask you all these questions, because we want to get into that brain of yours and see what happened. Let's start with a very big moment. You were declared dead at 21. 00:02:20 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah. 00:02:21 **Aleksandra King:** What happened? 00:02:23 **Andrew Jenkins:** I was driving my car, and there were five of us in my vehicle altogether. My previous partner– my son's mother– was in the passenger seat, my best friend and his girlfriend were in the back, and the lady I used to work with in the back. I hit a kerb on the left-hand side– my left-hand wheels, the passenger side– I flipped the car to the right-hand side, and I went through the driver's window, through the door to the side window. So my legs were in the footwell under the steering wheel, and my top arm was outside the car. My head and my arm, as you can see there, were dragging on the floor for a couple of hundred yards. When the car stopped sliding, it landed on top of me. So when the fire brigade, the police and the emergency services turned up, they told the people in the car that I was dead. I had to have two blood transfusions on the side of the road, because I lost six pints of blood– you've only got eight in your body, and I lost six of them. I won't go into too much detail, but I had no hair, no skin, nothing on top of my head at all, because I was dragging on the floor. I had a big hole in my skull, and I had bone embedded in my brain. So when the fire brigade turned up, they had to lift the car up to get underneath the car to work on me. So as you can imagine, it was horrendous. I was in a coma for four weeks in intensive care. 00:03:33 **Aleksandra King:** My gosh. 00:03:35 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah, it was tough. 00:03:36 **Aleksandra King:** Did you know when this was– I mean, did you know what was happening to you at any point? Did you– did you– you must have– 00:03:45 **Andrew Jenkins:** I felt the kerb, yeah. 00:03:47 **Aleksandra King:** So at that point you were still with it. 00:03:50 **Andrew Jenkins:** And then– and then the lights just went out. I can't remember much about the day, to be honest with you– I can't remember it. So psychologically, the people in the car had it worse than what I did, because they saw horrendous things. My previous partner, for example– when the car stopped sliding, she was hanging above me by her seatbelt, looking down. I was underneath the car– I was half under the car– there's blood everywhere. So she's calling my name, but I wasn't answering. The girl sat behind me– directly behind me– said, when you were sliding on the tarmac it was like a horror film– it was all like blood sprayed in my face– it was horrendous. So psychologically they probably went through a lot worse than what I did– my family, my friends went through worse. I just had to get better in a coma, so I had the easy bit, to be honest. 00:04:32 **Aleksandra King:** I don't know about that. I mean, what an awful, awful thing to have lived through. And I suppose– it doesn't really– something like that won't ever leave you. 00:04:46 **Andrew Jenkins:** No, it doesn't, and I've only come to terms with it really the last couple of years. I let my trauma define me for probably 24 years– my life was literally a car crash. So yeah, the last two years I'm really getting strong again and using my trauma for good, to help inspire other people. 00:05:04 **Aleksandra King:** So doctors told you at some point as well, from what I've understood, that you wouldn't be able to walk again. 00:05:13 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah. When I was in my coma, my family were called into the hospital on three occasions to say, he's not going to make it through the night– come and say goodbye. I've got three brothers– two older brothers, one younger brother– and my mum and dad. When I started recovering, then, they got told that from the scans they'd done on me there's lots of shadows on my brain, which means dead tissue– so I've got severe brain damage. There's a chance I'll never wake up, but if I do wake up, I'm not going to recognise anyone, \[unclear: walk on my legs?\] ever again– so prepare for the worst. So I woke up after four weeks, and my mother and father were standing over my bed. I didn't know where I was or what happened. It was quite scary– lots of beeping everywhere, tubes everywhere, in the hospital in intensive care. And then four days later the doctors came round and said to me, you will never ever going to walk again– and my first response was, I guarantee I'll walk in this hospital. My mother said– they're literally saying to you, you are not going to walk again, and you're going, yes I will. My mother said, it's embarrassing– the doctor is trying to tell you you're not going to walk again, and you're arguing. You're in bed with a tracheotomy in your throat, tubes coming up everywhere, and you're arguing with this man, telling him you are going to walk again. And I did– I proved the doctors wrong. 00:06:24 **Aleksandra King:** Well, the thing about you that I know is that you've got a rugby background. You're a tough cookie. You know– like rugby players– the fact that you would even do rugby and put yourself through that– there's something in the mentality of all rugby players. Was it that, maybe, that you were calling in on– like, I can suffer through, I can do it? 00:06:47 **Andrew Jenkins:** It was a lot of it– my upbringing, obviously– having two older brothers, having three brothers in total. As you can imagine, the competitiveness in my household was ridiculous, and the testosterone. And I know now– a lot of studying over the last couple of years– I grew up in a toxic masculinity environment. So even though I had no emotional support, I suppose, growing up– my parents are very old school. My dad is 82 years of age; my mum would have been 80, but she passed away a couple of weeks ago. 00:07:10 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I'm sorry about that. I know– I saw that on your socials, and I'm so sorry. 00:07:15 **Andrew Jenkins:** It's okay, thank you for that. But no– so upbringing, we call it– it's now known as emotional trauma. I don't like to say that, because it makes it sound like something bad happened– nothing bad happened. I'm compassionate towards my parents now, because they don't know how to show their feelings and emotions– their generation didn't do that sort of thing. So my parents have never told me they love me, to this day. But when it comes to the physical side of it, I think that's what helped me with my accident– being strong and resilient and determined. So it's good and bad, really. And obviously being from a rugby background, very competitive– that helped too. 00:07:45 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. I've got to say, you said toxic masculinity– I feel like you're right, but in that moment it was– that's the sort of strength you need. It was just really going to the core and the grit of that and just bringing it out. You need to be tough in a moment like that– you really do. And that competition is a good thing in a moment like that. 00:08:06 **Andrew Jenkins:** It was, yeah. So physically it helped me massively. Like, when somebody tells me I can't do something in life, I'll do it– I'll do it ten times better. So when the doctor said I couldn't walk again– no disrespect, I know people are in wheelchairs from different things, but at 21 years of age, being super fit and healthy and sporty, I didn't want to be in a wheelchair at 21 years of age. So I was determined. The first time I got out of bed– scary. I was two months lying on my back, and they finally made me stand up. They literally– I couldn't find my legs, really– like jelly– I couldn't feel anything. And I do a lot of bodybuilding training– I do a lot of fitness– so mind-muscle, I understand that. And the physiotherapist– they'd pick my feet up, put one in front of the other, for a few days, to remember to walk– but literally, I couldn't remember how to walk. 00:08:51 **Aleksandra King:** That's crazy. How do you even not remember to walk? How do you– from someone who's physically as strong as you were– you know, a rugby player, strong– like, really– to not be able to even feel your feet. 00:09:04 **Andrew Jenkins:** It's a strange feeling, it really is. I was scared– a little bit scared– but I knew I was determined, because I think in life, when you want something bad enough, it's in your head and your heart– go out there and get it. And there were a lot of people in hospital who died around me– injuries weren't that bad– they just gave up on life. But I didn't want to give up on life. I was only 21– I had too much to do in life. 00:09:24 **Aleksandra King:** Gosh. Okay, so you couldn't feel your feet, but you started to practise, step by step, and you started to walk again. When you started walking again– those steps– what was going through your mind? How did it feel? 00:09:46 **Andrew Jenkins:** Wow. God, there's lots of things going through my mind. Obviously I was nervous, anxious that I'd never be able to run, or never be able to do sport again, or walk properly. It was very shaky, as you can imagine– the first couple of days, the first couple of weeks, it was very shaky. I'd stand on bars– like the wooden bars, like gymnastic people have, the parallel bars– I was on them, and then I finally let go of the bars after a week. I stumbled a little bit, and yeah– I was determined. I've got something I can't explain– I've got something deep inside me that drives me. I've got fire in my belly. I want to be a success– I want to do well in life. And when they told me I couldn't walk again, I never really doubted myself, to be honest. Not being big-headed or anything, but I knew I was going to walk again– I knew deep down in my heart I was going to walk again. 00:10:28 **Aleksandra King:** That's incredible. You've got a sense of– a strength of character that's very admirable. It's impressive. 00:10:37 **Andrew Jenkins:** You know, I think everybody's got strength inside them. Every single person has got strength in their body they don't know they've got, so they need to use it. I think every single person in the world has got something inside to be brilliant in life. 00:10:46 **Aleksandra King:** But I think anyone watching can take from this also the power of the mind– that just because you've had a diagnosis, and because everything looks gloomy, doesn't necessarily have to be the case. You could have allowed that to be your life and not even tried. 00:11:03 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah– I could have rolled over, felt sorry for myself, and lain there listening to the doctors, and given up. But I didn't. But I think– a lot of people– mindset is huge in all the aspects of the world, of life. I think in your career, in your life– mental strength and resilience and mindset is so important. 00:11:19 **Aleksandra King:** That's why I'm saying there's so much more to you than appearing on Traitors– I mean, it's fantastic that you did, and we'll talk about that, but this is another– this is such another level of strength, and it's inspirational– \[unclear: it ticks many?\] boxes. 00:11:36 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah, yeah. 00:11:37 **Aleksandra King:** There will be people watching this going through things– having some very bad health diagnosis, or loved ones with a terrible health diagnosis– and feeling lost, and feeling like there's no hope. And what you're saying is, if you can tap into that mind as much as possible, it's going to definitely put you on a different path– even the positivity of it all, the mental attitude towards the situation, right? 00:12:05 **Andrew Jenkins:** 100%. That's– I said– I want to be the real person out there. There's too much unicorns and rainbows and fluff out there at the moment, and people– they book me for my talks, my workshops, they watch my social media, because I'm real, I'm authentic. And yeah, life is tough– you are going to face challenges in life. But as long as you're having more better days than you are bad, and take one small step every day– you might go forward two steps, three steps, you might fall back one– as long as you keep going, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, believe in yourself and keep going. That's the same in your career, in relationships and everything in life– just keep moving forward, like 1% a day, trying to get better every day. I had a big goal– I wanted to walk again– but every day I wanted to do five steps, a couple of steps more, every single day, and that mounted up to a huge goal of walking again. 00:12:51 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. It's crazy to think, but it is that little one-step-at-a-time thing, and you've got to have the patience with yourself. And it's okay to fall, and it's okay to take one step today and think, oh, why couldn't I take more, why can't I walk further– but it's okay that it was one step, I guess. 00:13:10 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah, 100%. I used to be too hard on myself– I'm so competitive, I used to be so hard on myself. And I do lots of talks– I say, people, be kind to yourself. You might make, you know, throwaway comments and call yourself names– silly, and things like that– but after a while you start to believe it. Be kind to yourself, and, like– you know, don't be hard on yourself– be compassionate towards yourself. Really, you're doing the best you can in life with the tools you've got available to you. So take small steps. And having good people around you is really good as well– a good support around you to help pick you up if you're feeling a bit down. 00:13:41 **Aleksandra King:** So you took these steps until it was a 1,200 km trek. Where did you go, what did you do, and why? And what message were you sending with this very, very long walk? 00:13:55 **Andrew Jenkins:** I walked 1,200 kilometres across four countries. I walked the length of Scotland– I started in Ardross Castle, where we filmed The Traitors, right at the top of Scotland, up in the top of the Highlands– the length of Scotland, part of England, went on a ferry then from Liverpool to Northern Ireland, walked the length of Ireland, back over to North Wales, and walked the full length of Wales, and ended up in Cardiff Castle on the 10th of November. And I did that for everybody out there who is battling demons, thinks they're not good enough, being told they can't do something in life, lost their confidence, self-worth. Being in a coma– I say I ticked so many boxes. I worked in a corporate world for years– in corporate banking for 18 years, in \[unclear: insurance?\]– then I've been in a coma, never walk again– so I lost my confidence and my self-belief. I did it for the people out there struggling, to quote to these people: keep working hard, keep believing in yourself, and you can achieve anything in life you want. 00:14:48 **Aleksandra King:** I'm– I'm for that, I suppose. Take us with you on that walk– onto a moment, whatever moment you remember vividly. What was going through your mind in that moment? Where were you, what were you doing, what was going through your mind? 00:15:08 **Andrew Jenkins:** There was one time I hurt my knee really badly, and it was my fault– I didn't do any stretching, I wasn't doing any exercise at the end of the day. I was probably walking about 40 km a day, every day– a marathon a day. 00:15:19 **Aleksandra King:** That's a lot of walking. 00:15:21 **Andrew Jenkins:** That's a lot. And when I got back to my accommodation, I just wanted to relax, to be honest– I should have been stretching, foam rolling. So I'd walked– I think it was 800 kilometres– and I hurt my knee really badly, and the team of people who were doing my walk with me, called Challenge the Wild– the owner wanted to pull me from the challenge, and he said, we have to stop– you've got to think of your long-term health, because this could have implications on you. But again, showing my resilience– that's my stubborn side– I said, no, I'm not quitting. I'll crawl– I'll crawl on my hands and knees at the end, over the finish line. I'll never give up– I'll never give up on anything in life, and if I believe in something bad enough in life, whatever that is, I'll go after it– I'll get it eventually. And again, not being big-headed– anything in life that I really wanted, I really believed in, I've achieved it, I've got it. And my walk– I knew I was going to finish my walk. I could have hopped it– I don't know how I would have done it, but I wasn't going to stop. But yeah, it was a tough, tough day– it was a really tough day. 00:16:13 **Aleksandra King:** You had a low moment, but again you stuck through it. 00:16:15 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah. 00:16:16 **Aleksandra King:** It's a little bit like that David Goggins guy– you know, I don't know if you know him. Do you know him? 00:16:20 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah. 00:16:21 **Aleksandra King:** He was putting photos up of his blistered feet, and you think, really? But you know what I mean– as you say, if you want it badly enough– if it's for a good cause– you're definitely doing the right thing. Because the thing is, that's the message to people as well– you want them to stick it out when it's really bad. It's almost like an earthquake that's happening, you know– it's shaking up your life– just hang in there. 00:16:44 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yes– having the right purpose, isn't it, I suppose. And I thought of all them people out there who are struggling in silence, battling with their mental health, who aren't fortunate enough– you know, who can't walk, in wheelchairs. I'm grateful of the fact that I can walk again, and when I work with people with a brain injury, it makes me so grateful– I was so close to being like that– not being able to feed myself, not being able to walk. So what I do when I walk– a bit of pain, a couple of hours of pain, a couple of days of pain– is worth it for all these people out there. I'm raising money for all them people out there who aren't as fortunate as me, I suppose. So that's what kept me going– kept me driving on. 00:17:17 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. Now we're going to go back a little bit more into your past. You said that you used to live by people's expectations. What did you mean by that? 00:17:30 **Andrew Jenkins:** I think we all do– I think most people do in this country. When you're born, you're the truest, most authentic version of yourself. As a child you've got no inhibitions, you've got no self-esteem issues with your confidence– we're just plain, innocent children with blank canvases. And then you get programmed to fit into society, to be socially accepted. First of all your parents do it– no– they'll punish you sometimes just for being yourself. You are running around laughing– they'll send you to your bedroom, they'll take your toy off you– and you're thinking, I'm just being myself. And then– you'll do a job– this job like your dad, this job like your mum, why can't you be like your brother– they compare you to your siblings. So then we go to school, and we get judged some more by the teachers. Our self-worth starts getting valued by the grades we get in schools. People who always get an A grade just think they're amazing; you get an E grade, you're written off. So people, you know, attach their self-worth and value as a human being to their achievements in life and the material things in life. That's what I talk about in schools now– I say it's important to try hard and get good things– I'm not saying that– but don't beat yourselves up and think you're a bad person if you can't achieve it. And then we end up then finding a job with the biggest salary possible– so relatively from a young age, more money means more happiness. And then one day you wake up– you're in a house, you've got a good salary coming in– six-figure salary– you've got a good body, a nice house, good car, pretty partner– me, still– I was really miserable. I was that person. I'd look in the mirror now and again and think, I've got everything in life that I was told would make me happy, but I was still miserable. 00:18:57 **Aleksandra King:** So– so you had the car, you had the house, you had the partner– you know, the pretty partner, as you put it. You're not happy. No? Why? 00:19:07 **Andrew Jenkins:** Every now and again I'd look in the mirror and I'd think– I'm just not happy. And I used to get frustrated with myself, thinking, I've got everything in life that I was told would make me happy. What I was doing– I was living to everybody else's expectations– my social circle, my parents– not doing what I want to do. And, you know, people call it a midlife crisis– I don't think it is a midlife crisis, I think it's an awakening, really– you realise who the true version is of you. I say to people in schools now, or to parents, I say– let your children live their life and do something they enjoy. I know you only want what's best for your children– I know you want what's best for them– but don't force them into a job. Because I ended up in a job for 20, 30 years– I used to drag myself to a job every day– it didn't fulfil me at all. It was good money, but I hated it– but I was earning good money. So it's hard– once you get up to a certain level, it's hard to take a step back– it's hard to take a drop back then to find something you want to do. Like, years ago– I don't think I've ever gone back in salary. I've always gone up and up. I've never actually looked at a job specification or job description and thought to myself, well, that's really good– it's 5, 10 grand less, but it's a much better job. I've never done that. You think that's a failing– that's failure, going backwards– but it's not. I wish I'd done a job now– a really fulfilling job that I wanted to do– not to keep my mother and father happy. My parents used to say to people, my son's a bank manager, my son's a bank manager– and I used to say, yeah– nobody cares. Nobody cares. \[unclear: easier about marriage?\]– it doesn't matter. 00:20:24 **Aleksandra King:** Well, I mean, there are a lot of kids that attend the school with my children that want to be doctors– but they don't really want to be doctors– it's the parents that have put these expectations on, so they're all going to go study medicine. But you can kind of tell that their interests are more in other areas– you just take five minutes speaking to them and you know that that's not really– you know. But they all think that's the right thing to do. And yes, it's a people-pleasing thing that's going on– a society-pleasing thing. Whereas actually, if you stay true to your own talents, you're more likely to be successful, because that's what you're talented in anyway, and you're motivated to do that thing. So yeah, there's something quite not right in the setup of our societal– whatever you want to call it. There's something– something's off. 00:21:15 **Andrew Jenkins:** I know. You've got to– you've got to live to your values. If you've got your values– if you're not living to your values, you will feel uneasy all the time. You're not living to your true values of being your true authentic self. Being authentic is really powerful– you take your mask off and be the true version of yourself. And it's scary, taking your mask off, to be honest, and I can see why people don't want to take their mask off, because it's scary– you feel vulnerable, you feel afraid, you feel out of control, you feel all these different things. But once you do it, you feel much more– I don't know– you feel fulfilled, and it's like empowering, actually– the true version of you, not some fake persona \[unclear: portrayed?\] to all these people– so the people around you get the real version of you. I've leaned into my vulnerable side the last couple of years. I thought vulnerable was weakness years ago, but it's not– it's actually brave and courageous, being vulnerable, and strength. 00:22:01 **Aleksandra King:** Do you feel now that you're able to live without that mask? 00:22:06 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yes, 100%. And the people around me who care about me, love me– they'll stay with me. You mean– growth is uncomfortable, to be honest. When you grow, you lose people by the wayside. People get jealous because you're growing– you're reaching out, your company's growing– and I think it just highlights– it highlights \[unclear: a failing?\] in them– there's a weakness in them. So I've lost people, but I don't really bother with my old friends any more– I still see them, don't get me wrong, but I'm different– I've changed now. It can be quite lonely and isolated sometimes, but I love it– I'm growing more now in the last couple of years than I have done in 45 years, probably. 00:22:39 **Aleksandra King:** It's the rugby competitive mentality in you, I'm telling you. You can stop playing rugby, but you won't change that mentality. Okay– so before Traitors– you touched on this– but you had this career in banking and insurance. So what was the decision you made to stop that? Like– to step away from that security– you know, because it is financial security– and then you're going, I'm going to take a risk. What happened? 00:23:07 **Andrew Jenkins:** I still ask myself that question. Yeah– to be honest, I went on The Traitors and I thought I was going to carry on working in insurance and do some talks on the side, a bit of podcast, whatever. But I was so busy after the show– people were contacting me– constantly contacting me– saying, come and talk here, could we come and do this, come and do that. My story– even though it doesn't have to be a car accident– the consequences and things afterwards are quite relatable to millions in this country. Lost my self-worth, my confidence– you know– failure– I thought failure was a bad thing growing up, but I wouldn't do anything unless I knew I was going to win or be successful at it. I do workshops on failure– failure is not a bad thing. So after the show I had all these offers coming to me, so I was trying to work seven days a week– I was working silly hours around my day job– but I was also lying to my boss at work all the time. So I'd say to my boss at work, I'm off to see a customer now– insurance policy's due for renewal– and I'd go off and do my podcast or my keynote tour. My life was all over social media– on LinkedIn or Instagram, within about two hours or three hours of leaving my office– all over LinkedIn– say, welcome Andrew from The Traitors to his podcast. And I'd go back to my office then later. The next– yeah– he said, the thing is, the big bosses in London– the company– they're watching you like a hawk, and they're challenging him, saying, what's he doing? He's so busy doing his talks, his webinars– what income is he bringing in? And to be honest, I wasn't doing anything– I was keeping on top of my renewals– doing lots of my renewals, keeping my existing customers happy– but I wasn't really doing any new business at all. And I'm a good person– good morals and values– and I said to my boss, I've got to leave– I'm robbing a salary off you at the moment. I said, it doesn't sit right with me. And he's a good guy– he's a brilliant guy– and he said, yeah, we understand– so you're going to have to work your three months' notice– because I had three months' notice in my contract, I was a senior. So I left on that day, then– I left. It's a massive gamble– I left with nothing. I had nothing set up– nothing– nothing, really– and I'm still trying to set it up now. I'm still doing things now I should have been doing a year ago, but I let everybody else run my life in the last 16 months rather than trying to do it myself– being organised and structured. So I've been very reactive \[unclear: rather than?\] proactive. 00:25:17 **Aleksandra King:** Well, you started to really work for yourself– that's what you started– that's how you did it. You started to invest the time– instead of making the money for that client, for that company, you've invested it in yourself– into your social media presence, into your own brand. And you have to start somewhere, and it is a lot of work– it is time, and all of that goes into it. So you just– yeah, you outgrew that. 00:25:44 **Andrew Jenkins:** It's scary, don't get me wrong. I've always worked all my life– I worked in banking for 18 years, insurance– so all my life I've gone into work, used their systems, used their marketing, used their CRM– didn't have to think about anything, just my customers. Now it's all on me, and it's not– \[unclear: it doesn't light me up?\] inside– I don't enjoy it. I enjoy talking to people, building relationships, deepening relationships, meeting people. When it comes to all the back-office stuff– I'd rather– I sit in the house sometimes for an hour or two and I think, I can't do this– I'm bored now– I've got to have a coffee and a meeting with somebody. So I've got to start leaning into uncomfortable, or pay somebody to do it– I haven't got lots of money to be able to pay someone– these things cost money. I left my job into nothing– I had no time to save any money, because I wasn't planning to leave my job, so I didn't have six months to plan things– I just left the same day. So I had no chance to really save any money. And \[unclear: besides?\]– I didn't win The Traitors either– so people think, you've been on the telly– yeah, got loads of money. I didn't win the TV show– I was on it– so I lost in the final. So it's been– it's been a massive challenge, but now it's going really well the last couple of months. 00:26:48 **Aleksandra King:** It is a challenge. It's definitely a brave move– I'll give you that. 00:26:53 **Andrew Jenkins:** Crazy– crazy, I don't know– crazy or brave, I don't know. 00:26:56 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– both, probably. So let's talk a little bit– if it's okay with you– about your family. So you said your parents never told you they loved you– you know, that's quite a bold statement to make. What was your relationship like with your dad? 00:27:18 **Andrew Jenkins:** It was good. My parents– the way they showed their love to me and my three brothers was putting a roof over my head, clothes on my back and food on the table– it's the generation they come from. Yeah– very compassionate of my parents– because, you know, my dad's 82, for example, my mother would have been 80– so they're really old school. My parents have never driven a car, they've never sat in an aeroplane, they have the same meals every night at the same times, they watch the same things on television– they're creatures of habit with a fixed mindset. So I'm compassionate towards my parents, because they don't know how to show their feelings and emotions. Like my mother and father– I read a lot about love languages. My father's love language is time– so he'd give up his time to watch \[unclear: me playing?\] rugby– wouldn't miss any of my matches– \[unclear: wouldn't miss my break?\] on the touchline– stand on the side of the field in the rain, snow, the wind– he wouldn't miss a game. That was his way of showing– I love that. 00:28:07 **Aleksandra King:** I love that. 00:28:08 **Andrew Jenkins:** My mother's– acts of service. So when I left home at 22 years of age, I'd never used the washing machine, I'd never used a cooker, never used an iron– my mother did everything for us. When she was– she was really intelligent– she left grammar school and she had a job in National Westminster Bank, and she was one of the only women in the country to work back then– it was a real male-dominated industry. She had a good job in National Westminster Bank, but as soon as my oldest brother Simon was born, she gave up her career to be what was classed as an old-fashioned housewife then. And my mother did everything– her life was her sons and my dad. My three brothers were the same when we left home– like, when I was there, she did everything for us. When my mother passed away a few weeks ago, my dad really struggles, because he's never had to do anything all his life– now he's got to try and do it all, and he gets really frustrated at the moment. Because– \[unclear: did we realise?\] exactly what she did for us? Does anyone leave home and realise and appreciate what she did for us? 00:29:03 **Aleksandra King:** That's incredible. It's so nice that you see that– you know, that you appreciate that. I think that's– a relationship– a good upbringing. 00:29:10 **Andrew Jenkins:** I knew– I knew we were loved. You can tell– it's a nice warm home and everything. But yeah, it was just– it was just the emotional side of it. And I grew up exactly the same– not being able to show any feelings and emotions. I thought if you show feelings and emotions, that made you weak. I thought men don't show feelings and emotions– because I was a rugby boy, gym person, doorman, security, close protection– I've done all these toxic masculinity jobs– thinking you can't show feelings and emotions. After my accident, I didn't speak to anybody. They offered me counselling, but I refused it. I thought I was going to see somebody in a white coat who was going to judge me, psychoanalyse me, and I refused– I said, I'm not going to see that– how do they know what I'm feeling? They've studied a textbook for five years– how do they know what I'm feeling like? I refused to \[unclear: go to?\] therapy– I didn't speak to anybody for years. 00:29:53 **Aleksandra King:** You know what– I went to a school in South Africa, in Grahamstown, and it was quite a British school– it had like a British-system upbringing. And something bad happened with one of my friends, and we were all sad, and we started crying– and, you know, it was very emotional and all that. And then the lady who was in charge– she came up to us and she was like, listen– come here, come here. And then she took us to the side, to her, like, headquarters– whatever you want to call it– and closed the door behind us, and said, look– you can be emotional here. Deal with it, and when you've finished, then you can come out. And I just thought– wow. Wow. I'd never seen anything like– you know. I'm still not sure how I feel about it till this day, because in a way I understand that you don't want to inflict your drama onto others or whatever– but then again, what's wrong with emotion? Same thing– I tried to hug my mum– you know, when she arrived– I hadn't seen her for a long time. She walked into the school and I dived onto her and I squeezed the living daylights out of her, because I was just so happy to see her. And again, the warden– oh, we don't do that. And my mum sort of looked, and she was– oh, sorry, sorry, sorry– she didn't know– that it was my mum. And I thought– yeah– it's a bit– what do you say to that? 00:31:19 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah– it's crazy. And I suppose that happened years ago, and I suppose with men especially in this country, it's all– from a very young age– just suppress your feelings and emotions. As a young boy, you know– don't cry– babies cry, girls cry– man up. From a young age– where most men are told, suppress your feelings and emotions. So you've got all these emotions inside you, bottled up for 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years– sometimes men never lean into their emotions or their vulnerable side. So they've got all this pent-up emotion inside them, and it comes out in other ways then– it could be, you know, drugs– it could be different ways– it comes out other ways– hence sex, drugs or something. It comes out in violence, anger, frustration, because they're building up these emotions. And I've learned over the last couple of years– if you've got an emotion in your body, especially if it's upset or anger– rather than trying to push it down all the time, which normally happens– by doing that, that makes the emotion stronger and stronger and stronger, and it reconfirms that emotion then. So you have to lean into it rather than suppressing it– try and lean into it and deal with it, otherwise it'll keep coming back up every now and again. So when you're upset, for example– try and think– I always think to myself now, what's causing that? Is it something from my childhood– what's causing that? Rather than me trying to ignore it and push it down, push it down– I'll try and lean into it now. It's uncomfortable sometimes– you've got to find out– you've got to look at yourself– secrets and everything– but you're much calmer once you start leaning into your uncomfortable emotions. 00:32:43 **Aleksandra King:** I like it– lean into it. 00:32:45 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah– rather than trying to push it away. 00:32:47 **Aleksandra King:** I like it. Look at it– as if, you know– just accept it. Don't brush it under the carpet, is what you're saying, really. 00:32:54 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah. Most of the time it's normally something that's happened from your childhood– your inner child– and normally it's something that happened from when you were five, six, seven years of age. Someone has said something to you, done something, said something– a trauma, like \[unclear: we've all got in us?\]– it used to come out on a regular basis. The last couple of years I really have learned to work on and help heal my inner child, I suppose. 00:33:17 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. Then the opportunity comes along for you to be on Traitors. Why did you do it? 00:33:25 **Andrew Jenkins:** I ask myself that question– why did I do that? No– I actually had a message on my Instagram page– I didn't apply for it initially. I would never apply for things like that– I don't really watch reality TV. So I had a message on my Instagram from a casting director saying, do you want to apply for the show? Your story looks incredible– you seem like a nice person– do you want to apply for the show? At first I didn't think it was serious, and then I thought to myself– I can get a great profile and a platform– the connections I've got now– to do what I want to do now. So I wanted to start talking about wellbeing and mental health before the TV show, but I only had a couple of hundred followers– I didn't have any connections. So that's genuinely the only reason I did that show– being recognised in the street– I'm a humble man– I'll never change the person I am, regardless of how successful I become. The only reason I done that show is to get a platform to do what I do now. All I want to do is lie on my deathbed, close my eyes, \[unclear: knowing I made a?\] difference to this planet. All I want to do is help people– I don't suffer in silence– I did for many, many years. I want to help give back to people– I will show people you can overcome lots of things in life and have a good life. 00:34:30 **Aleksandra King:** This definitely comes across from you. I can feel– I know we're filming this remotely, but I can feel how much you want this– I can feel it, that you want to help people. You know, the weird thing– what they've done with you– and I don't know, it's quite clever, but really– you are very authentic. They've put you on Traitors, and they've put you in as a Faithful initially– which is understandable, because of the authentic and completely transparent, honest person you are. But then there's a twist– and then you become a Traitor. How was that for you? 00:35:12 **Andrew Jenkins:** If you'd seen the show, you obviously know I– I wasn't very comfortable with that– I didn't enjoy it at all. 00:35:17 **Aleksandra King:** But– but you had to do it. 00:35:18 **Andrew Jenkins:** So yeah– because Paul and Harry were the Traitors at the time. They said, if you didn't join us, we were going to murder you the next day– you were such a strong Faithful, nobody voted for you at the round table, so you were a threat to us. So they said, the only way we're going to do it is– either join us, or we're going to murder you. So if I didn't join them that day, the next day I would have gone– another chop– I'd have been gone. So yeah– I didn't want to do it, but at the end of the day– I kept telling– I'm not a stupid guy– I kept my feet on the ground, and I thought, it's just a game. The people outside of this game who know me– my family, my close friends– know what person I really am– know I'm not really a liar or a horrible person. You know, people around the country watching might have an opinion– they don't know me. The people who really care about me, who know me, who I care about– they know the real person. And, like– I'm a very competitive sportsman– it would have been like quitting at half-time and not finishing the game to the final whistle. My brothers would have gone mad– giving up a game before the final whistle– you're always told to play the end game, to the final whistle. So I thought– I'll change to a Traitor and carry on playing. But it was awkward the first day or two– then I got used to it. 00:36:21 **Aleksandra King:** Through your answer– it's very interesting the way you've answered that, because it shows me that you had an internal struggle, and you had to justify becoming a Traitor and doing these things– and making it okay in order to be able to do it. So there was an internal struggle there, mentally. 00:36:47 **Andrew Jenkins:** Massive, yeah. I was on the– it took me a couple of minutes to make the decision– probably about 10 or 15 minutes, actually. It didn't seem that long on the television, but I was sat in that room for probably about 15, 20 minutes, thinking to myself– I don't want to do it. I'm an honest person– good values and morals– I didn't want to– I didn't want to manipulate people, twist things and that. But yeah, I made the decision at the end. It was– the first day, it was quite obvious on the telly that I was a Traitor, because I hated it– because I was paranoid that everybody was talking about me. But after a couple of days I just got used to it. 00:37:16 **Aleksandra King:** In the moments when you were a Faithful– that was pretty easy, wasn't it? You were able to be completely true to yourself, and that's all fine. In the moments where you had to be a Traitor, and you weren't being true to the others– deliberately– what effect was this having on you– you know, in terms of being an authentic person, which is very important to you? 00:37:44 **Andrew Jenkins:** To be honest, if you watch the show, I didn't really have to do much manipulation or lying, to be honest– I just went along with Harry. So I just– I didn't want– Harry– yeah– I lied– I made one lie, to Ross. I felt really bad inside– my insides were twisting and turning– but I'm telling Ross to his face in the round table he's lying, but I know deep down he's telling the truth– internally it didn't \[unclear: sit right?\] with me at all. And Ross went mad– when I said the word "elusive" at the round table, and Ross said, you said "elusive"– I didn't say that word– I don't even know what it means. And I knew– I knew exactly what it meant. And it didn't feel good– it didn't sit good with me at all. But that was the only real time I actually had to lie to anyone. 00:38:23 **Aleksandra King:** What did you learn about human nature from that experience that possibly surprised you? 00:38:30 **Andrew Jenkins:** I couldn't believe the– the sheep– how much– like, when you watch all the series, it's like a herd mentality– it's like a pack mentality. You know, some people just jump on the bandwagon, and– you know, people– just, like, listen to– see the celebrity versions on the telly now– people just jump on the bandwagon– they follow the herd. They're too scared to, you know, stand up, being authentic, and go against everyone else– so they all just follow each other, to be honest. Like sheep. 00:38:54 **Aleksandra King:** Like sheep. 00:38:54 **Andrew Jenkins:** I suppose so. And every season of The Traitors is exactly the same, and that's why the Traitors are always winning– the first few weeks they're winning by a landslide– by about \[unclear: 7 to 1?\] normally they win it. If nobody is brave enough to put their head above the parapet and just be honest and authentic and call a Traitor out– but I get it, it's an awkward game. If you start calling Traitors out early in the game, you're going to get murdered. It's a really difficult game to play. Do you be honest and true to yourself, and be honest and calling out the Traitors? On the other hand, then– no– if you start calling the Traitors out, you're going to get murdered. So it depends really how you want to play that game– if you want to get in the game– stay in the game as long as you wanted to, like I wanted to try and win it– or you try to be brave and honest– be true to yourself from the very start. 00:39:36 **Aleksandra King:** I mean, there's parallels to The Apprentice, which I was on– which is– you did really well in the beginning keeping a low profile, because you definitely don't want to be project manager in week one of The Apprentice either. There are ways to deal with these games. But what people don't realise about reality TV is that it is pressure– it's not easy. I mean, I didn't find it easy. Did you? 00:40:00 **Andrew Jenkins:** It's not easy. I was quite lucky, because I kept my game plan– when I went in there, it was to, you know, get on– get on with it. I'm a nice person, so I got on with all the other contestants– I was quite friendly. I didn't say too much, because if you say too much, you get murdered. I didn't want to say nothing at all– if you're too quiet, you get suspicious. So I just said enough to tick over. My game– I was going \[unclear: under?\] the radar right to the very end, and then I was going to make my move at the very end. But Ross \[unclear: named?\] me– round table. So I was lucky– I never got really put under any pressure at the round table. Only once I got accused at the round table, but I answered that– it was fine. But some people at the round table actually crumble under the pressure– they got accused and they're arguing– and it is a massive pressure situation. When you're being accused of something you haven't done– in normal life, before– yeah– but at the round table you've got six or seven people against you– it's even worse. They're all firing questions at you, and you're sat there– I've seen people just break and crumble in front of my eyes– I felt so sorry for them. 00:40:57 **Aleksandra King:** And you know, when you talk about that sheep mentality– it's also a little bit about who can be the sacrificial lamb here– so who's weak. It's sniffing out the weak party, pinning a label on them– and this is exactly the same with The Apprentice, by the way. You almost sense blood– you know, the sharks are circling around. So yes, it's sheep, but it's also sharks at the same time. They sniff the blood– you're weak– and then they attack, and they bring that sacrificial lamb down, and then it's like, we're safe– bye-bye to you. 00:41:28 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah– that's very true, actually. That's good, yeah. 00:41:30 **Aleksandra King:** It's a jungle out there. 00:41:31 **Andrew Jenkins:** It is a jungle out there– yeah, it is. There are lots of nice people out there; there's also very sly and sneaky people out there as well. They'll stab you in the back– a lot of snakes. I found that out a lot the last 14, 15 months, in this world I'm living in now– because I've been thrust into this limelight. I enjoy it– I love it, you know what I mean– but there's lots of people out there who've used me so much over the last– because of my name. I'll come here and do this– they promise things– to return things– in my– you know, I'll do it for free, or– but in return I'll give you this, in return I'll give you that– you never hear of them again. So, you know, I'm a nice person– I've got a big heart– I want to help people. But at the end of the day, I need money– I've got to pay bills, I've got a roof over my head, exactly the same as everyone else. So there's a lot of snakes out there, to be honest with you, and I'm getting better \[unclear: at sussing?\] these people out, to be honest– that's not right. 00:42:13 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. You know, I had an intelligence officer on here the other day, and we were speaking about, you know, different types of personalities– and he's been in lots of different situations– and we were speaking about how, actually, if you look at humans and all the different personalities– it's almost like you can categorise people into types of animals that they could potentially be. So you get the snakes, you know, you get the parasitic people, you get the viruses– that you can't even– you can't see the danger, but oh boy, is it there. You get the lions, you get the sheep, you get the wolves. 00:42:49 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah, I love that– yeah, I love that analogy. Yeah, it's good. 00:42:52 **Aleksandra King:** You can keep going– there are– it is, for sure. 00:42:55 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah– it's a zoo. 00:42:58 **Aleksandra King:** It's a zoo. And what you really want is– is what's the best in nature, which is a symbiotic relationship, where it's good for everyone– you know, let's go together. 00:43:08 **Andrew Jenkins:** 100%. And one of those is more collaboration. If people work together, there's so much– I know it's competitive– people want money– but I think there's enough business out there for everyone, whatever their business, whatever their trade– work together. I mean, people come together, work together– especially in wellbeing and mental health– it's not a competition. We're not talking about KPIs or money– we're talking about people's lives. So we've got to help each other– work together. There's so much bitchiness, in-fighting and things that goes on– it's unbelievable, honestly. 00:43:35 **Aleksandra King:** There is, isn't there– there really is. So what did The Traitors teach you about vulnerability? 00:43:43 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah– and I actually learned a lot about vulnerability, but the biggest thing I learned in The Traitors was what's important in life. I had pictures of my family around my room, where I was staying, and I'd go back– I'd go back to my room at the end of every day– I'd talk to my pictures. I thought I was going mad. Every morning before I left to go to the castle, I'd talk to my pictures again. I'd see the psychologist– she'd come to our room every few days– Victoria– she was amazing– and I'd say, am I going mad? I'm talking to my pictures. She– no, it's great– you're getting it off your chest– you're grounded– you're obviously very intelligent– you're talking to them, getting it off your chest– you're not bottling things up. And I looked around the room– and I knew, about a week before the end, I wasn't going to win– I knew I wasn't going to \[unclear: win the play?\]– because he had so much influence, Harry, over the rest of the people. But I looked around the room and I thought to myself– this is what matters. These people– they love me exactly the same whether I'm first, second, tenth– all these people think exactly the same. Yeah, I'm disappointed– I'm competitive– £95,000 would be nice– not being bitter about it at all– but who needs £95,000? But that– that's what's important to me. It made me realise– it gave me lots of time on my own to think about life in general– what's important, what's not important in life. So I had lots of thinking time to think about what really is important to me. 00:44:56 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. And your exit from The Traitors– you appeared very emotional. What emotions were going through your mind? How did you feel? And– and maybe, for those that didn't know– what happened? 00:45:15 **Andrew Jenkins:** When I left, I was actually quite calm on the telly– I was quite– I smiled and I walked off, because I knew it was coming. But– me, Mollie, Jaz and Harry were in the final– four of us at the round table. I got voted off– so Harry, Jaz and Mollie voted me off– so I left– I was fourth. But like I said, I knew a week before the end– or not a week– a few days before the end– that Mollie and \[unclear: Jaz?\] were going to vote for me, so I'd come to terms with it, to be honest. I'd had all day to think about it on my own– pretty much all day, because we were split up on the last day, because the final went on much later than what we expected. But– yeah– so I'd had all day to sit and think about things, and calm myself down, and try to think about what I'm going to do– my next move– do I go against Harry, do I try and win it– and it was– it was quite stressful– a little bit stressful. But I was quite comfortable with how far– I was quite proud of myself, actually, for the first time in all my life, I suppose– of 25, 30 years– I was actually proud of myself. I'm proud of where I got to– whereas years ago I'd be disappointed I didn't win it, but now I'm proud of where I came. And I got upset because that's the first time in a long time that I actually felt proud of myself, and actually proud of my achievements. 00:46:24 **Aleksandra King:** I'm going to ask you this– I mean, do you think– and I'm just putting it out there– that it might be a good thing not to win the Traitors award? I mean, I'm just putting it out there– I don't know. I mean, obviously it's a game– but yeah, I wouldn't beat myself up about that at all, and to come fourth is incredible. And you had to play both– you had the most difficult role, because you also had formed relationships– you had been in that a long time– and then you had to turn and do that. So they– they put you in a very difficult– you probably had it the worst, really. 00:47:02 **Andrew Jenkins:** I was the only player in there, actually, to do everything. They said to me I had the complete experience– I was a Faithful, I was a Traitor, I got locked in a dungeon, I did every mission, I did the end game, I did the end mission, I did the fire pit at the end. I was the only player– Harry didn't do half as I did, and he won it. I did everything– so I had the full experience, if you like. So yeah– it was tough, but it was good. 00:47:22 **Aleksandra King:** You did– you have the full suite of– of torture. So now you've become a voice for mental health– for men. Do you have men approaching you that you know are in difficulties? Do you find that you have that responsibility now, to try and help these people? 00:47:42 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah– I speak to hundreds of thousands of people over the last 18 months, probably. And yeah– it's not– I speak to lots of women as well– women suffer the same with emotions from a trauma– trauma is a trauma, no matter what sex you are. And I get lots of women reaching out to me who've got young boys– perhaps the dad isn't around, for whatever reason– so they reach out to me– their young children– they want advice and support about their rugby, about their sport, about their schooling. So I get lots of women reaching out to me as well, speaking about their children. Yeah– I get lots– it is a lot of pressure. I speak to people all the time, but– I say to people straight away, I'm not a qualified \[unclear: counsellor?\] or a therapist– and they say to me, I don't care– I just want to speak to somebody who's been through something, come out the other side. They want to know how you've overcome that. I don't want to speak to an academic or a counsellor– I want to speak to somebody normal, who's relatable, who's got a lived experience. When I say lived experience– it's really powerful these days– \[unclear: not just my car crash?\]– if you've had cancer, if you've had a stroke– whatever your lived experience is, people listen, because it gives you credibility– people listen to you. Like myself, after the accident– I refused– and not just– they say– my life, for example– an academic– I didn't want to speak to an academic– how do they know how I'm feeling? They've read a textbook for five years– they haven't been through it– they don't know how I'm feeling. I would have spoken to somebody who's been through something– a car crash or something– because they would have understood where I was coming from, and they would listen to me and empathise with me. And that's what people say to me, I guess– so many people say, I want to speak to somebody who's been through something, come out the other side. There is a lot of passion– I do– I do speak to people– too much, to be honest– I speak all the time, talking to people. 00:49:18 **Aleksandra King:** So what are the common themes– you know, what are people typically going through that come to you? Just also in case someone's listening– you know, what are the sort of things that people are suffering with that you've found the most common? 00:49:32 **Andrew Jenkins:** A lot of it's the lack of confidence or self-belief– a lot of it is– or if they've got a trauma. You know, everybody loses their confidence sometime in their life– it hasn't got to be a car accident that's done it– whether they've lost their job or been through a divorce– you do lose a bit of confidence sometimes. And people reach out to me a lot about, you know, belief, or self-belief, or confidence– and self-worth, a lot. They say they feel lost in life at the moment– they don't believe in themselves any more, they've lost their confidence. I speak to a lot of people around that area– the biggest one, probably– or trauma– some form of trauma. 00:50:04 **Aleksandra King:** And you know, you spoke earlier about your mum– I mean, that's– that's dark– no one wants to lose their mum. It's a horrible, horrible thing. And– tell us a little bit about how you process that– you know, because people are losing people they love– and how do you– how do you process that grief? 00:50:26 **Andrew Jenkins:** Um– listen– \[unclear: I loved my mother to bits?\]. So my mother was the matriarch of the family– she was the boss of the family. She was only about 4 foot 10– all of her boys were towering over her. When she spoke, we all listened. She was the boss of the household– she was the main person in the house– and the strength– that's where I get my strength from, my mother. But I've done a lot of work over the last two years on mindset– reframing– mindset, reframing things– and this sounds, ooh, whatever, now– but there's a lot of reading about spiritual things– about frequencies, vibrations and all this sort of thing– and I believe my mother's still with me in some capacity. Her spirit is– she might have left her physical body– a vessel– but her spirit is still with me, and I feel it sometimes. I did a talk– it was in Leeds– a big talk, a big conference– and I did it \[unclear: just?\] after my mother passed. I'd sent my slides over a few weeks before that, and one of the slides was me, my mother and my son– the whole point of that slide is to spend time with people– don't take people for granted. So I was standing up in front of the big audience, and I clicked with the clicker– the picture come on the screen behind me– my voice went funny. The voice went a bit funny– I felt a bit– all of a sudden I felt really warm– I felt really warm, as if somebody put their arm around me– as if I felt somebody– and I went– I felt really calm– but I felt a bit– I felt my voice was a bit funny. All of a sudden it was like my mother had her arm around me and said, come on, boy– you've got this– you're good. It's really emotional. I went– I just felt really calm, and I carried on talking then, in front of the audience. And I did tell the audience that– I said, my mum passed away three days ago– and they said, well, you're doing this talk– it was only three days ago. You know– we was booked in a long time– the main speaker– so I couldn't cancel it. And– I know grief is absolutely different for every single person. I was diagnosed with grieving after my accident– because I refused to get a professional– but then, 15 years after my accident, I actually went to see a counsellor for the first time ever, and she said to me after the first session– I know what's wrong with you. And I said– \[unclear: what's up?\]– she– you know, you're grieving. I didn't know much about it back then– I do workshops on it now. I said, what do you mean, grieving? That's when you die. And she– \[unclear: you don't have to die to grieve– it's the loss?\]. I– I used to play rugby, I used to do this– I used to– I was grieving the old Andrew. She said to me, people grieve all the time– every single person grieves– they don't realise they're doing it. When you lose a big project in work, for example– they \[unclear: tender?\] for a big project in work, it doesn't come off– that's grieving. And you change department in work– to a different department– that's grieving. Retiring from work is grieving. You lose your sporting career. He said– people, when they have children, grieve, because they can't go out as much– they haven't got as much money, as much freedom. You grieve in your own life. So when I do my talks, I talk about grief– I can see people in the audience thinking, God, I must have been grieving– I lost my job, or I got divorced, or I separated from my partner. So all grief is, is the emotional reaction to the loss of any kind. So I was grieving after my accident. So in regards to my mother– I try to reframe it. So obviously I miss my mother– of course I do– but I try and think about the 47 good years I spent with my mother, rather than focus on the negatives. Some people, when they grieve, they focus on the fact they're never going to see that person again– never listen to that person again– I know it's different for everyone– not knocking anything at all– but with me, I try and think, right– think of the good– think of the good 47 years that I spent with my mother– happy memories– when she'd put me in bed, reading the story every night– and that puts a smile on my face. So I try and focus on the positives rather than focus on the negatives. It's easy to focus on the negatives and spiral into a dark place for days and days, or weeks and months. And my dad is, at the moment– they've been together 62 years– married 58 years– so \[unclear: he's never known any different?\], to be honest– they were like joined together. 00:54:10 **Aleksandra King:** Yes– joined together. 00:54:11 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah. So he's really struggling– he's quite angry and bitter at the moment– but he's– he's struggling with life– general day-to-day life he's struggling with. Whereas, you know, my three brothers, I think, all seem okay. I'm trying to keep myself positive and happy. I think– I know my mother's still watching me, wherever she is– she's watching– and I hope she's proud of me while I'm doing the work I'm doing. 00:54:30 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. And keeping an eye on people around you that are grieving, because maybe they don't have the strength. Because the thing is– so the good thing about this, what you've just said, is that all the things that your mum taught you– the strength that you've got from her– it stays with you. That's going to live on– you're here– she's with you via the strength– and you said the warm feeling and everything– you've got that, you've got all those memories, and you've got her behaviour– that's literally living on within you. But there are also people that don't know how to cope with that grief, and it gets overwhelming, and they might not have the mechanisms in place– and it's just also keeping an eye on the people around you, and making sure that they don't slip down that really dark– 00:55:17 **Andrew Jenkins:** Yeah– same with anything with mental health– anything really with wellbeing and mental health– you're always going to need to check in on people. And if you're serious about wellbeing and mental health, you've got to check in on people. We all spend 10, 20, 30 minutes a day scrolling on your mobile phone, or Instagram, or whatever you look at– but we haven't got five minutes, ten minutes to ring your best mate. And most of– sometimes, you know– somebody's going through something– whether it could be a terminal illness, loss of a job, separation– just check in on that person. It takes two minutes to pick up the phone, or even a text, I mean, to say– how are you feeling? Is everything okay? And that simple text could be the difference between them taking their own life or not. And I know that might sound a bit harsh, but it's true– it's true. That person could be sat in their house, isolated, being lonely– nobody around them for days sometimes– and that text is the first time anybody's spoken to them for days, or weeks sometimes. That could be the difference between them taking their own life or not– and it's as simple as that. Just check in on people– people you care about, loved ones, work colleagues– just checking in on them– a simple text– just, you know, checking they're okay. 00:56:18 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. Yeah– I mean, I wasn't going to– I wasn't planning to say this, but I had a personal trainer that I worked with for a few years, actually, and he had some– you know, he was suffering from some mental health issues or whatever– but he was actually also a tough rugby guy– sporting background, you know. And then he had an injury– and it's like you were saying– you were talking about the grief of your identity– that that bit's now gone, and you can't do all the sport– not on the level that you wanted to do– and suddenly you're stripped of this identity– and he found that really hard, you know. And during COVID– you know, when everyone was sort of cut off– and he wasn't able to see his– I mean, he was seeing a counsellor– like a therapy person– you know, someone that he could talk to regularly in person, that could help him– and that was all cut off. And he did reach out with a message saying, you know– I'm finding it quite tough, you know, this whole COVID thing. And it's like– oh yeah, yeah, it's tough, you know– hopefully we'll get back to things soon. He never got back to things soon, unfortunately. And that haunts me. I sort of think, you know– it's like you're saying– that message– when someone's– it's a cry for help, isn't it, a lot of the time. 00:57:36 **Andrew Jenkins:** When someone tries to take their own life, most of the time they don't mean to take their own life– it's just a cry for help, a lot of the time. And it's like– people– like you said earlier on– they lose their identity. And people in the forces, for example– they've been institutionalised for 20, 30 years– they come out of the forces and they can't deal with life. And sports people– anybody who's been in a career a long time– a policeman, \[unclear: a fireman?\]– they all of a sudden lose their identity, and they really struggle with that. And also– I know people say, you don't know– you know– what's going on behind closed doors. Sometimes the people with the biggest smiles on their faces, the nicest houses or the nicest cars, are struggling the most. Lots of CEOs, for example– it's a high-pressure job– again, it can be quite lonely. Who do they talk to? They work long hours– stress– they've got, you know, 100, 200, 300 people to look after– and it's a high-pressure job. And you've got these nice salaries, nice jobs– you get used to a certain standard of living, I mean– so you can't really take a step back. And sometimes then– there's so much pressure on them– the only way out, they think, is to take their life. Unfortunately– I know lots of people– the last year– a few people– who were earning great salaries in London, for example– earning six figures– married, children, good job, good car– the wife isn't working, or whatever– so they're under so much pressure– they're so scared to tell their wives, or whatever, the truth. They can't move back, or they can't– you know– they have a certain lifestyle– dinners all the time, holidays– they're scared to tell people the truth. I know people in their 40s taking their own life– over the last two years, two people– well, for the last year– on the outside it looks like a perfect life, but it's that high-pressure job at the top in London, earning money, and they can't really– they can't see a way out– that's the only way out, \[unclear: they think– to take their life?\]– which is sad, really. 00:59:17 **Aleksandra King:** The pressures are real– and so– \[unclear: basically?\]– I would actually say that almost everyone, virtually, listening to this podcast is going to be dealing with something– feeling a bit stuck, maybe feeling a bit broken, or worrying about someone really close to them feeling stuck or broken. So based on– I mean, we've spoken a lot about all of this, and I thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your story with us– what would you tell these people? How would you advise them– what to do next– you know, for anyone who's feeling a bit lost? 00:59:58 **Andrew Jenkins:** Oh, it's a big question. Yeah– I know it sounds easy– me going to sit here– it is easy– because it took me 15 years to talk to someone– but the one thing I say to people: please talk, and open up to someone. It hasn't got to be professional– it could be a work colleague, a friend, family. I bottled my feelings up for many, many years and made myself ill. I thought as a man I couldn't open up and talk. Women as well, you know– women– high-pressure jobs, successful women– they probably find it hard to talk as well. But the people around you will think exactly the same as you– they won't judge you or treat you very differently. Like– if I found out my best mate was struggling, or took his own life, for example, and he couldn't come and talk– I'd feel terrible that he couldn't come and talk to me. When we want to talk, we think people will judge us differently– they won't. I said– just be brave, be courageous– take that first step and talk to somebody. Don't bottle things up, because when you bottle things up, it spirals. I'm a huge– a huge believer in prevention is better than cure. In this country we're very reactive \[unclear: rather than?\] proactive– when somebody tries to take their own life, we'll help them; and somebody's obese, give them an injection. It's mad. I say, no– give people the tools or the education months or years before it \[unclear: gets?\] that far. Like– why in schools– why do\[n't\] we teach our children what APR is– so when they leave school, they know if they borrow money it's going to cost them X amount of pounds? Why do\[n't\] we teach them about calories in, calories out– so if they eat more calories than they need, they're going to put weight on? Why do\[n't\] we teach them about how to regulate their feelings and emotions– not saying teach them to be counsellors or therapists– but a basic understanding of emotions? For the moment, this country is spending millions of pounds, or billions of pounds, on obesity; suicides are going up; and debt is costing the country billions of pounds. So why do\[n't\] we teach the people them three things– life skills– rather than teaching about Pythagoras' theorem, or King Harold in 1066? Why don't we teach more life skills they can actually use when they leave school– not in school– the curriculum's \[unclear: hundreds of years old?\], for example– it needs updating to the real life, to be honest with you. I say– please speak to someone, and talk to someone if you're struggling with anything at all, no matter how big or small it is– please talk to somebody. That's the big tip I can give you. 01:02:07 **Aleksandra King:** I love that. And I feel like it brings us right back to the first question, which I had about your walking– or not being able to walk– and you having taken that first step. And that's really the lesson to anyone suffering and going through anything: take that step– have that conversation– one step at a time. Andrew, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much. 01:02:30 **Andrew Jenkins:** I've really enjoyed it– thank you so much. 01:02:33 **Aleksandra King:** Thank you. ## Follow Aleksandra - [Instagram](https://instagram.com/king.aleksandra) - [X](https://x.com/aleksandrabking) - [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/aleksandraking) - [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@AleksandraKing) - [Aleksandra's Inner Circle](https://laylo.com/aleksandraking) Business and collaborations: [aleksandraking.com](https://aleksandraking.com) | [aleksandra@aleksandraking.com](mailto:aleksandra@aleksandraking.com) *The views expressed by guests are their own and do not reflect those of Aleksandra, the podcast, or its producers. This podcast is for entertainment only.*