> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # From Failed Apprenticeship to Building a £200M Travel Empire | Robin Deller - URL: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/from-failed-apprenticeship-to-travel-empire/ - Published: 2025-11-14T17:15:00.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-24T10:06:20.000Z - Description: Global CEO Robin Deller on the Marmite leadership style that secured deals with Virgin and Emirates, and why common sense is a superpower. - Author: Elliott King - Tags: episode, Season 2, Business, Entrepreneurship, #ep-11 **The apprenticeship failed. The empire that followed is worth £200 million.** Global CEO [Robin Deller](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/robin-deller/) joins host and producer [Aleksandra King](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/aleksandra-king/) on The BEYOND Podcast to reveal the truth about entrepreneurship: the Marmite leadership style that secured deals with Virgin and Emirates, and why common sense is a superpower. ![Robin Deller in a patterned shirt during his BEYOND interview, seated on a yellow sofa beside a boom-mounted microphone](https://storage.ghost.io/c/5e/74/5e74ba0c-c249-4586-8ce5-03deb56fdf93/content/images/2026/08/Robin-Deller-Alexandra-King.png) ## Episode summary Robin starts with the definition of success and where hidden talent actually comes from, then rewinds to the beginning: a failed apprenticeship, the graft of raising capital without credentials, the pressure of debt, and the mentorship that steered him through it. His traffic light system for the business, and the discipline of knowing when to cash out, turned survival into strategy. The commercial spine of the conversation is honesty. He describes himself, characteristically, as Marmite, and argues that non-negotiable honesty is precisely what closed the deals that built the company, selling to Virgin, then to Emirates, while avoiding seller's remorse. Pricing strategy, delivering value and tracking every penny of marketing spend get the same unsentimental treatment. His people philosophy is just as contrarian: he ignores CVs, recruits through what he calls the anti-sell, and builds internal culture around the entrepreneur mindset rather than the org chart. Common sense, he insists, does most of what consultants charge for. It closes with the operating system behind it all: daily routines, AI innovation inside the business, managing stress at scale, what reality TV taught him about leadership, and the lifelong habit of simplifying complexity rather than being impressed by it. > “In my business, in the industry, I kind of call myself characteristically as Marmite.”– *Robin Deller on his leadership style* ## Key takeaways - A failed apprenticeship was the start, not the end: raising capital, surviving debt and finding mentors built the foundations. - Non-negotiable honesty closed the biggest deals, including Virgin and Emirates, and he wears the Marmite label with pride. - Common sense is a superpower: most business complexity dissolves under it. - He ignores CVs and recruits by anti-sell, building culture around the entrepreneur mindset. - Track every penny: marketing analytics, pricing discipline and the traffic light system keep the empire honest. ## Key chapters | Chapter | Timestamp | | ---------------------------------------------------- | -------------------------------------------------------------- | | The definition of success, and finding hidden talent | [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc) | | From failed apprenticeship to raising capital | [08:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=535s) | | The pressure of debt, and the power of mentorship | [16:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=990s) | | The “traffic light system”, and cashing out | [22:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=1350s) | | Non-negotiable honesty, and selling to Virgin | [29:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=1780s) | | Selling to Emirates, and avoiding seller's remorse | [38:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=2300s) | | Pricing strategy, and delivering value | [44:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=2640s) | | Marketing analytics: tracking every penny | [50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=3000s) | | Ignoring CVs, and the “anti-sell” recruitment method | [59:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=3540s) | | Daily routines, AI innovation, and managing stress | [1:06:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=3990s) | | Leadership, reality TV, and simplifying complexity | [1:14:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=4490s) | | The entrepreneur mindset, and internal culture | [1:23:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc&t=4980s) | ## The guest Robin Deller is the global CEO of Imagine Cruising, who built a £200 million travel business from a failed apprenticeship, closing deals with Virgin and Emirates along the way. His full background is on his guest profile. [Robin Deller's guest profile](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/robin-deller/) ## Where to listen - [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM5u4EZkqc) - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-with-aleksandra-king/id1786173140) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/0haFQYUTnEn0fpr0LQYlhH) - [YouTube Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=MPSPPL3iQHE-qteJING9jXVVuVUdDa-9qqer7J) - [RSS feed](https://anchor.fm/s/10464b2ac/podcast/rss) ## Related reading Read the companion insights on the site: [From Failed Apprentice to £200M CEO: The Power of Marmite Honesty](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/robin-deller-from-failed-apprentice-to-200m-ceo-the-power-of-marmite-honesty/). And: [Imagine Cruising: Building an International Empire on Honesty and Analytical Rigour](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/features-robin-dellers-imagine-cruising-building-an-international-empire-on-honesty-and-analytical-rigor/). ## Transcript #### Read the full episode transcript ### Cold open The episode opens with a trailer montage of clips lifted from later in the conversation, so these lines legitimately appear twice. 00:00:00 **Robin Deller:** In the 25 years I've been in business, the number one thing I am non-negotiable on is honesty. 00:00:07 **Aleksandra King:** Started from nothing, and you've grown your business to over 200 million. 00:00:12 **Robin Deller:** So there'll be some of my day which is just– I've seen this thing, I've got this idea, I've played with it, can we do it, and now we can evolve it. 00:00:18 **Aleksandra King:** These both businesses so successful, Virgin and the Emirates Group both wanted a piece of the action. Now a global multi-million pound CEO in business with giants like P&O Cruises. This week on BEYOND the Boardroom, Robin Deller reveals what it really takes to make it big in business. 00:00:44 **Robin Deller:** Today we've got offices in the UK. We've got offices in Cape Town, we've got offices in Brisbane and Perth in Australia, and we're opening in the US in a couple of weeks. Common sense to me seems to be like a superpower. Okay, I can clearly see that, you know, something from a common sense perspective is obviously positive, and even if somebody's saying that it's not– and the same is true of the reverse. And what I realised is that when you build an organisation from the ground up, you've got so many skills– that if you come into a business part of the way through and you end up in a department doing something, there's so much to business that you just will never understand, because you won't have gone through it. ### Interview 00:01:30 **Aleksandra King:** You have an incredible background. You've achieved immense success in business. You've started from nothing and you've grown your business to over 200 million. And you've sold it– well, you part sold to the Emirates Group, didn't you? 00:01:45 **Robin Deller:** That's right, yeah. 00:01:46 **Aleksandra King:** I mean, that's a mega success. Do you feel that you're successful? 00:01:51 **Robin Deller:** I guess it's– what's the definition of success? I think for me, I'm trying to achieve personal goals every day, both in terms of an evolution of who I am and what I give back to the world, and also the team I work with. So, you know, the business is not about Robin doing something that grew and became something. It's about Robin going on a journey where he met different people, saw different opportunities, and over a period of time we've kind of landed where we are, but we could have gone off in a hundred different directions, and the people I could be working with could be very different to the ones I am, but all of the decisions I've made have been very purposeful. The people I've employed, I've worked with, I've mentored, and I still mentor today. So, yeah, I'm really proud of where we are, but we kind of– I don't think about it in that way. It's just about going in every day and trying to achieve within that moment something, and ideally try and do things differently in terms of a constant evolution. There isn't an end game, there's no point in time, and I think to some degree some of the errors people make in the early stages is wanting to build something quite specific, and in reality that's probably going to be disappointing when you get there. So it's more about the journey, and I know people say it all the time, but it's very true. If you can't enjoy the journey, I wouldn't suggest it's worth doing, because it's the journey that should be enjoyable. The outcome is unpredictable. It's not always going to be within your control. So, yeah, enjoy the process of building, learning, mentoring and creating, because that's where the fun should be. 00:03:32 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, I can tell that you're enjoying it, but do you think you're successful? 00:03:37 **Robin Deller:** I think– I mean, I'm not the kind of person that would go and talk about me in those– using that kind of language. I think I've done what I've done– more than I hoped to achieve. I think I'm more proud of the people I brought with me, and the team we've built, and the journey we've been on, and I think, as a definition, people would look at us as having been successful. 00:04:03 **Aleksandra King:** People definitely look at it. \[laughter\] You've been really modest. No, no, people definitely do, but I appreciate, you know, for you business is so much more than, like you say, that number or that thing. It's about the creativity, and getting really excited that you're building something, and you're bringing all these amazing people. I mean, finding really good people is a success within itself. Once you've got them, you hang on. 00:04:23 **Robin Deller:** Yes. You don't want to ever– \[laughter\] Yeah. And that part of it is random. Well, for me it's random. So, if I go back– I've built a number of businesses over the past 25 years, and the previous business I built was called Fast Track, and actually one of my first employees there, a lady called Natalie, who now is one of my business partners in Imagine– I'd happened to go out for lunch at TGI Fridays– 00:04:48 **Aleksandra King:** Mhm. 00:04:49 **Robin Deller:** and she served me lunch, and she was upselling. I can't remember what I ordered, but she was upselling every opportunity. Do you want this? Do you want that? Her personality just came alive, and for me, I felt she was wasting an opportunity by working at TGI Fridays. Like, her capability was beyond the need of that role. So, I just said to her, you know, "Here's my card. I know it's a bit random. Here's my card. I think that, you know, there's a journey you could go on that could be really exciting. You've obviously got lots of capabilities. You know, give me a call if you're interested." And she phoned the next day, and– by Fast Track– that story now, actually she's a business partner at Imagine. I love– but lots of examples like that, where my core team that have been with me over a long period, none of them have been onboarded for a standard recruitment process of– I need someone, get a recruitment company, go out and then interview. It's never happened like that. 00:05:50 **Aleksandra King:** It's coming. I'm going to ask you about how you recruit– like, what your recruitment process actually is, and what's important. We'll get to that. We'll get to that. For now, we're determining– you know, you don't see success by the number. You actually don't. You are a living, breathing example of a– you're a born entrepreneur who loves the process, loves the journey, the highs, the lows, you name it. We spoke earlier, and you said something about the unpredictability of it. You don't really know. 00:06:17 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, yeah. 00:06:18 **Aleksandra King:** And you like being in that environment. You like not knowing every single thing, and being told, you know, this is the direction that– That's you. That's your personality, and fits perfectly with what you're doing. There's something else you said to me that I loved in our pre-podcast call. I'm going to bring it up now. 00:06:31 **Robin Deller:** Okay. 00:06:31 **Aleksandra King:** Competition are smaller than my ambition. I mean, that just– that gives me goosebumps. That is the best thing I've ever heard. I love it so much. 00:06:42 **Robin Deller:** What I mean by that is, when you start, everybody wants you to explain, what is it you're trying to achieve? And I've never looked at the competition in terms of trying to be them– 00:06:55 **Aleksandra King:** Mhm. 00:06:56 **Robin Deller:** or do what they do, because my concern's always been that I'm just slicing a cake– you know, whatever they're achieving, I'm going to be at best part of that experience, and that capability, and that profitability. So, I definitely look for ideas, but my desire to achieve– whatever that is– and that changes constantly, even today. You know, what I'm looking to achieve over the next 12 months, three years, five years is different from perhaps what I perceived it would be 12 months ago. But my ambition is bigger than what I see out in the world. In terms of our industry, and the people that do the kind of things we do, I want to just have no ceiling to that, and therefore I believe that we can be as big and as successful as time will allow and our capabilities will allow, but it's not in some kind of square box and predetermined. Again, it goes back to the journey. We're just reaching for the sky, and what we know is that we're going to be doing things that we aren't even considering doing at the moment, and therefore I can't look for it, because it doesn't exist. The evolution and what we become will be self-evident at the point that we decide to do it, but today it may not even make sense, because we're not at the right point in our journey to look at those options as being relevant to where we are today. 00:08:20 **Aleksandra King:** We're going to talk about– because this is, like– this is the crux of business, and getting into business. It's like, you have an idea– 00:08:27 **Robin Deller:** Yes. 00:08:27 **Aleksandra King:** You think, oh yes, you know, that would be great. They're doing it. They're making money from it. 00:08:32 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:08:32 **Aleksandra King:** And then there's ways of going, well, here's the reality. How are we going to finance it? And different business people look at different business styles. You know, Elon Musk would say, well, you need to, you know– don't– you don't get the money first and then do it. Like, do it without the money, by presenting something. But then you still have to have something to present. So, what do you present? There's all that kind of thing, which we're going to get to. 00:08:51 **Robin Deller:** Yes. 00:08:52 **Aleksandra King:** But first we're going to talk about how you started, and you started at failure. You started at a failed apprenticeship. How did that not chew your confidence? 00:09:01 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, I think– when I was at school, and immediately after leaving school, I was living life probably more for my parents than for myself. So, I wanted– and I still have that desire today– I want them to be proud of me. So, at school, what that meant is– I don't know, like any parent, you hope your child gets certain qualifications, etc., but I wasn't actually gifted in that way. So, I kind of got through school, and then an apprenticeship felt more grown-up, and a bigger box to tick at a young age, than maybe just going and getting a standard job. So, I just kind of fell into the whole apprenticeship world. I started off as a draftsman. I didn't have any skills in that environment, and actually that first job started me in a direction that at that point I had no idea– but because I didn't enjoy the role– 00:09:57 **Aleksandra King:** Mhm. 00:09:57 **Robin Deller:** As part of that organisation, they had a sales arm, and I would spend my lunchtime with the salespeople. They were younger– similar to my age, you know, slightly older– but they were younger and seemed to be having fun, whereas drawing was quite serious, quite monotonous, quite boring, and I wasn't that good at it. 00:10:16 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:10:17 **Robin Deller:** So, I liked the characteristic and the environment of sales, and that led me to question as to how I'd bridge from where I was going over to there. But I was not successful at all at a young age, and I think part of that was because I didn't really have any desire to do anything. I didn't really even understand the question– you know, when people say, certainly when you're, you know, at kind of leaving age at school, "So, what do you want to do?" I think most of us have no concept. Yeah. We understand the question, but– 00:10:44 **Aleksandra King:** The question. Someone says, you're– 00:10:46 **Robin Deller:** So, yeah, so– I was waiting to find something in life. That's kind of how that period of time– 00:10:57 **Aleksandra King:** So, you knew that you weren't good at this apprenticeship thing that you were doing, and you were just drawn to that sales side, because you thought, "Oh, that looks like fun." Some people would dread it, but– 00:11:06 **Robin Deller:** It interested me. 00:11:07 **Aleksandra King:** You knew that interested you. So, in a way, that helped point you. 00:11:11 **Robin Deller:** That gave me the direction– that I now need to let go of what I'm doing, and perhaps any expectations other people have on me, and move across to that. 00:11:18 **Aleksandra King:** So, just so our audience knows– so you started with a failed apprenticeship, then you went into telemarketing– Teletext, is that right? 00:11:27 **Robin Deller:** So, my bridging to sales– I had some small jobs, like I worked with people like the Auto Trader, cold calling, and I would say– the calling thing– for anybody, that sales is going to be a part of your life if you're building a business, cold calling is probably the best apprenticeship you can have. 00:11:41 **Aleksandra King:** It's brutal. It's brutal. 00:11:43 **Robin Deller:** And you've got to enjoy it, because it is the hardest form of selling you're ever going to do. Anything that comes after that is going to be easier. So– if you've got an opportunity to go out there, even for a short period of time, and participate in it– it's an amazing apprenticeship. 00:11:59 **Aleksandra King:** I've done it. Yeah, it's brutal. It humbles you. It humbles you. 00:12:03 **Robin Deller:** It does humble you. So, I think– it humbles you. From that period of time, I then– by pure luck, in hindsight– I'd lost my job in construction, and I was just looking for something to tide me over, and I found an advert in the newspaper for telesales– and I said I'd done this kind of cold calling, like, before, but a telesales job for travel. I loved holidays. In my 20s, I travelled the world a couple of times. Always loved travelling. And I just thought I'd just go and see what it's about, and you can kind of tell the quality of the job when you go in– you have your interview, and you get offered the job within three minutes. So, you know the skill set they're looking for broadly is not, like, great, and they kind of give everybody a chance. But to my surprise– even though I'd done some cold calling, but not to any great degree– I went into that business. That business was called Gemstone Travel, and they basically sold flights and package holidays to places like Greece and Spain on TV. And so it was all inbound calls, which– to me, I'm used to phoning people who don't want to speak to me. So, they're saying to me, people will call me. This sounded amazing. And they're going to want to go on holiday– well, holidays are amazing in their own right, so this call should be nice, and the objective is to try and find a holiday that they're after within their budget. And I stayed there for a year, and in that year I was the number one salesperson pretty much from the off. I then got promoted to management, and that gave me an opportunity to understand business, because I was given responsibility for a hub of the business in a single location, where I was responsible for opening, closing, the profitability, spending the money on marketing, the salespeople– and without knowing it, you suddenly are starting to see the seeds of business, and how different elements of business affect other elements. So, in that period I'd met some people in the company, and– just, for whatever reason, I don't know– there came a day, after a year of being there, where I just turned to three of my friends and said, "Why don't we give it a go?" I mean, I've no expectation or desire to ever run a business, but we're good at this, and between the four of us, we've got different skills that collectively seem to equate to the business we're running– but we're running this for someone else. Why don't we try doing it for ourselves? So, literally from that conversation– to enter into the industry, into the travel industry, back then, there was a requirement to have 65,000 pound of cash flow. So, we challenged each other to go and find a quarter of that over a weekend. 00:14:42 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:14:42 **Robin Deller:** So, we all went away. We all came back on Sunday evening, and– one way, shape or form, we'd managed to borrow– we didn't– none of us had the money– borrow a collective sum of 65,000 that would then allow us to go and start. 00:14:57 **Aleksandra King:** Just put this into perspective. So, you weren't that academic, right, at school? 00:15:02 **Robin Deller:** Not at all. 00:15:02 **Aleksandra King:** You went and did an apprenticeship basically to please your parents, as a lot of us do when we finish school, and we try and do what our parents want us to do. You realised you didn't like that boring stuff. So, you then also saw that you might like sales. 00:15:16 **Robin Deller:** Yes. 00:15:16 **Aleksandra King:** And then you naturally went into these cold calling jobs, that evolved into cold calling in travel centres, right? And then– you found out through that that actually there's an opportunity in business, as you got into a management position, that you could actually take this on yourself. So, you started really from the ground up. 00:15:33 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:15:34 **Aleksandra King:** And you figured out your talent, and then you found the right people– who at the time you thought they were the right people. 00:15:40 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:15:40 **Aleksandra King:** And you had to, from the idea, find a way to finance– 00:15:43 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. Yeah. 00:15:45 **Aleksandra King:** That's the key moment. Now, just to step into that, why did you need the finance? What were you going to pay? What were you going to do with that money? What was it in your head that you needed? 00:15:57 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, so back then, the money was required as a deposit to give comfort to ABTA, who are the governing body. 00:16:07 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, okay. 00:16:07 **Robin Deller:** It wasn't needed. Our industry is cash generative. People pay deposits for holidays. So, fairly quickly you gain cash in the business. I've never borrowed any money other than at that point in time– over the past 25 years, we've never had to go and borrow money– but you have to satisfy ABTA by having a cash flow to– 00:16:27 **Aleksandra King:** You had to have that money in there. Okay. 00:16:29 **Robin Deller:** But of all of that 65,000, we probably only spent 10 or 15,000, in terms of some marketing money and some small recruitment fees, and then we structured the business– and it was fairly typical, and still is today, in travel, that people are paid commission on the phone. So, you're only paying for success, and success generates income. 00:16:48 **Aleksandra King:** But how did you convince people to give you the money? 00:16:51 **Robin Deller:** I think we all spoke to our family, and– I think we were fortunate that, you know, the sum of money was not– I mean, it was of a decent sum. It was like 15,000 pound each. It wasn't crazy. 00:17:08 **Aleksandra King:** Crazy. It's still a lot of money. 00:17:09 **Robin Deller:** It's still a lot of money, but we were going to replicate something we were doing. We didn't have a business idea that was unproven. We'd got a business idea that was proven. It's just that we were paid a salary previously, because we were doing that for somebody else. 00:17:21 **Aleksandra King:** Okay, yeah, yeah, I understand that. A safety net there. 00:17:24 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:17:24 **Aleksandra King:** You saw that it was working. Although it kind of contradicts what you said before about the whole ceiling, and don't copy the competition– but there is a place for copying the competition, at least initially. 00:17:34 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, the basics. What is the base plan that allows you to exist and play in the game? 00:17:40 **Aleksandra King:** Mhm. 00:17:40 **Robin Deller:** But yeah, you're right, you know, and I think back then things were more expensive in general. I think in today's world there's other ways of doing it, actually– in the travel industry, certainly, where you wouldn't need to find that sum of money. You can go through consortia. There's different consortia in the industry, and you can participate in that. But yeah, the good thing about borrowing the money, though, for all of us, was– the concept of failure was– 00:18:06 **Aleksandra King:** Yes. 00:18:07 **Robin Deller:** non-negotiable. 00:18:07 **Aleksandra King:** It's quite a lot of pressure. 00:18:09 **Robin Deller:** And because we borrowed it off family, like, there was no way we were going to let them down. So– and we wanted to pay them back as quickly as possible. And as it turned out, we paid that money back in six months. All that money had gone back to those individuals within a six-month period. But yeah, that kind of pressure, that commitment, I think, was quite healthy in the early stage, where we'd never run a business. I think had we been given the money, and somebody said, you know, whatever happens happens, I don't know if we'd have been that successful, or as driven, or as committed. Like, this couldn't fail for us. 00:18:41 **Aleksandra King:** It depends on your personality type, because there are the sort of business people– I mean, I heard another businessman, that you will know, who was saying that he knows people that– you know, people come to him all the time and say, "Oh, I just need– we need more investment, more investment, more, more, more." And then he thinks, "Well, you've only just asked for that." 00:18:57 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:18:59 **Aleksandra King:** And then more, and then they get addicted to banks giving them loans, and it's always the next– 00:19:03 **Robin Deller:** For what? Yeah, for what purpose? 00:19:04 **Aleksandra King:** For what purpose? And you're not understanding the value of money. 00:19:07 **Robin Deller:** I know in some of the later businesses I've had, where I've had the benefit of having access to money, I've squandered money, because I had it, and I didn't perhaps value what I was using that money for, and understand the benefit of that money, and the need for that to be successful– because if I lost it, I lost it. It kind of wasn't a big deal. 00:19:29 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:19:29 **Robin Deller:** But yeah, in those early stages, we were– we had, you know– there were four of us. We had the capability, with the commitment, to want to pay that money back, and I think we were well set then. If this can work, we have the right people. 00:19:45 **Aleksandra King:** How old were you at this stage? 00:19:46 **Robin Deller:** I was the oldest of the four. I would have been 29. 00:19:51 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:19:52 **Robin Deller:** And they would have been around mid-20s. 00:19:55 **Aleksandra King:** Pretty young. Did you have any mentors, anyone that you went to for questions? Who? 00:19:59 **Robin Deller:** So– there was– when I worked in Gemstone, which was the travel business where I started upselling, there was a gentleman there that came in, called John Kent. He went on to build some very successful businesses, and sell them for significant sums of money. He was in that business for half of the year I was there, and he came in to evolve the business and to broaden the product range, and he mentored me and a number of others. And I'd say through that short period of time– and he was tough– through that short period of time, there have been probably half a dozen successful businesses come out of his mentorship. 00:20:43 **Aleksandra King:** Awesome. 00:20:44 **Robin Deller:** So yeah, it's amazing. 00:20:46 **Aleksandra King:** A person to know. \[laughter\] But it's tough love. I mean, that's what it was. It was tough love. Yeah, because I think about this, you know, with myself, my growth– like, do I need a mentor? Do I want a mentor? How would that work? Everyone has such different styles, but then it's nice to also be accountable to someone, to, you know– 00:21:03 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:21:03 **Aleksandra King:** have that fresh pressure, you know. 00:21:05 **Robin Deller:** I– you know, I think of mentorship in general– I don't know that I would work well with having a mentor over a long period to achieve what I'm trying to achieve. I think mentorship is anybody that gives you an answer to a question you didn't realise the answer to. 00:21:21 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:21:21 **Robin Deller:** So, you know, I live my world with asking a thousand questions, and– where it's different to school, perhaps, where teachers are restricted with time, they're focusing on a large group of people, and they have to move on– I realised in adulthood those rules are gone in the bin, and I could ask as many questions as I want. I could clarify– as long as I was happy to put myself out there, that I didn't understand– I could ask them to perhaps restructure the explanation, or the answer, so that I could understand it, and I could do that again and again and again. And over a period of time, you realise that there are different ways of learning. And I found in adulthood, and certainly in business, and still today, that's the process I use. I know– think of me like a six-year-old. Talk to me– 00:22:08 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:22:09 **Robin Deller:** like I have no idea. 00:22:11 **Aleksandra King:** \[laughter\] 00:22:11 **Robin Deller:** So, I ask the questions– really lock it in, because I know, with that knowledge, I'll be able to take that knowledge and use it to my advantage. 00:22:17 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. I think you've got enough energy. There's a really good energy off you. I can just give you something– I can see you just running with it, and doing it really well. But you need that energy. You need to be fired up, and do what you've done. Because, as I say, to put into perspective– you started really from this failed apprenticeship. 00:22:32 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:22:32 **Aleksandra King:** Then you realised you had these talents. You came up with this idea. You raised the financing. You then went on to start Fast Track, which you then sold to Virgin Holidays, and then went on to start Imagine Cruising, which you then part sold to the Emirates Group. And you made a lot of money doing it, and you've had a really fun time. So, the success is immense, and what you've done is admirable. I mean, it's inspiring. It's absolutely brilliant. But like you're saying, it's not by chance. It's very well– 00:23:03 **Robin Deller:** Thought through, yeah. Very carefully. Yeah. Everything is a process of evolution. The process changes. Going back to, you know– you're as good as the knowledge you have, and the people around you have. That's your collective capability. 00:23:17 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:23:17 **Robin Deller:** And your aspiration sometimes is initially restricted within that mindset of, this is what we can do. You then, over time, realise you don't necessarily have to have all the knowledge as an individual, or even as a team. You can pull knowledge in. And you can use that knowledge to give you capabilities that either you then go to understand, and you own, and you build from– or you can bring them in temporarily, to give you a capability to kind of elevate you to a position temporarily, and then that knowledge can disappear again, because it's only of the moment. 00:23:50 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. It's exactly right. It's very accurate, especially in marketing, in my industry. It's absolutely correct– and you bring in those capabilities, and then they change all the time. 00:23:58 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. And that is it– you've just got to be broad enough to know that the limitation that sits within your business today is almost certainly you, and the way you're thinking about– 00:24:15 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, that is– that is mind-blowing. That's mind-blowing. Crazy to hear it like that. And I think– especially if you're the one that's running the business– when you run a business, people are reluctant to come up to you and say, you're thinking wrong, you're doing things wrong. You know, they're not comfortable doing that. 00:24:33 **Robin Deller:** And I think it's through an evolution of trying things, putting yourself out there, proving them, isolating them, tracking them, testing them, succeeding from them, that you start to see the way business works. That it's not one leap of faith to go from a point you are at today to a point in the future. It's made up of a thousand steps. 00:24:51 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:24:52 **Robin Deller:** And every step, when you break it down, becomes much more palatable. And then, with each step, you can almost certainly break that down into other steps, that allow you to quantify which of those steps is going to add benefit to you as a business, and which ones are going to deteriorate from your capability. Because all you want to do is– as soon as you see things that are not working, you want to push those to one side. We operate a traffic light system in the business. I've always done that. 00:25:17 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. Okay. Green shoots. 00:25:19 **Robin Deller:** So, green is a colour proven. We love it. We're going to build upon it. Take it forward. How do we evolve that green to become bigger? Amber– not sure. We're not unhappy. We're not happy. It's unproven. We need to keep working on it, but over a period of defined time, it needs to become green or red. And then red– how quickly can we see that colour appear? And then you just need to get rid of it. So, you're trying to– in the early stages, you've probably got lots of red flags going, some ambers you're not quite sure, and some greens. And you want that colour scheme to change in your favour, where you've got a bank of green. That's kind of your security for growth. You've got amber, which means you're evolving– we don't know, these things may work, may not. And red is inevitable. You're going to fail. And what's the definition? Well, the definition is trying something that you didn't know would or wouldn't add value. You don't understand it truly. It's of no use to you going forward. 00:26:14 **Aleksandra King:** Push it to one side. 00:26:15 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. Got to be brutally honest with yourself to do that. 00:26:19 **Aleksandra King:** What– I mean, you touched on it, but what is your relationship with money? How has it changed over time? In terms of– like, how do you see money? Is it your friend? Is it your foe? Are you good with money? I mean, on the most elementary level. Because you have a lot of business people– 00:26:33 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:26:33 **Aleksandra King:** that might be really good at what they do, but they're horrible with money. They don't invest well. 00:26:39 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:26:39 **Aleksandra King:** They just don't like the numbers. They give it to someone else, the finance guy. And actually, if it wasn't for the finance guy, they'd probably be in trouble, and they would have gone bankrupt six times. 00:26:47 **Robin Deller:** I'm probably– probably slightly in that camp. \[laughter\] 00:26:49 **Aleksandra King:** I see. 00:26:50 **Robin Deller:** I'm quite– well, I'm quite frivolous. So, I'm not stupid with money, but equally, I'm not living for some future point where, you know, if I save and save and save and save, when I turn 70, I'm okay. I believe everybody should make the most of their life. I think you've got to make sure that you are not spending beyond your means, but equally– enjoy today. Enjoy the moment. I love giving more than receiving, so I love sharing my financial achievements with others, whether that's charities, whether that's friends, whether that's relatives. So, I enjoy that more than the– 00:27:34 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:27:34 **Robin Deller:** personal achievement. 00:27:36 **Aleksandra King:** Let me rephrase this. So, there's also people, lots of business people out there, that– let's say there's an obsession with money, okay? The other side of it, where they will do everything. They will sell everything they have. They will put the whole business on their house. They will do all of that. And every penny that they make will go straight back into that Russian roulette. Right? And sometimes they lose it all. But there are those, too. So, what do you say about that? 00:28:04 **Robin Deller:** Ah, well, I guess I had advice– or, we've got an auditor that I've used for 20 years, one way, shape, or form. His advice was always that sensible business people cash out to some degree, within a framework where they stop going to the casino, if you like. 00:28:24 **Aleksandra King:** That is so well said. 00:28:25 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. So, his advice was always, you know– if you're doing well as a business, typically– it's, you know, a very broad statement, but to get three successive years of growth is pretty damn good in most industries. So, if you're able to grow the business to an extent where the value is there, and the success has been driven, don't think that it's going to continue forever on that trajectory. 00:28:50 **Aleksandra King:** Forever, yeah. 00:28:50 **Robin Deller:** And you don't need to go and sell the company. And the way I've always done it is some kind of liquidation. So, as I say, with Imagine, over three iterations I've diluted my shareholding– 00:29:01 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:29:02 **Robin Deller:** to cash out, so that I've got a comfortable amount of money to go and live the life I want to live, and I've left a big chunk of money within the business, because I believe in the business, I believe in its growth. So, I'm in that kind of– yeah, I guess, comfortable situation now, where the money that I've got within Imagine– if it all went, it wouldn't matter. But having it there does give you– as much as I'm saying money doesn't matter– it gives you that extra drive to– I don't think about the success of the business and the growth of the business being a financial outcome, but it is. 00:29:38 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:29:39 **Robin Deller:** But that's not its purpose. 00:29:40 **Aleksandra King:** Yes. 00:29:41 **Robin Deller:** That's how I kind of see money. 00:29:42 **Aleksandra King:** I understand. So, on that– it leads me very nicely into values. What are your values, you know, in business? What's important to you? What's a total no-no, or– 00:29:54 **Robin Deller:** So– the businesses for me– success of businesses will be based on partnerships. And they could be partnerships internally, within your organisations, with staff. They could be externally, with, you know, our suppliers, distributors. And the common denominator– in the 25 years I've been in business, the number one thing I am non-negotiable is honesty. 00:30:16 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:30:16 **Robin Deller:** And I think that having stood by that core principle over that period of time has allowed me to create a group of people that are successful, because whether honesty is good news, bad news– it's reality. It puts you in a position of making decisions based on facts rather than fiction. It allows you to delegate. It allows you to know that if you're asking somebody to support you– and as you grow, you're going to have to be doing more delegation– you know that the honesty of that relationship will allow you to delegate productively, will allow you to invest productively, and will allow you to create long-term partnerships with all of those people, rather than short-term wins. And that's certainly what I found over time. Most of the organisations that work with us today are organisations where the people we work with, we absolutely trust each other. We– 00:31:26 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:31:27 **Robin Deller:** give and take throughout the period of time. 00:31:29 **Aleksandra King:** It's so important. 00:31:29 **Robin Deller:** So, there could be a hundred words I could use, but I'd say everything stems from that. If you haven't got that, I would suggest nothing else really is an accurate statement. It's a perception based on what somebody said, but you don't know whether that statement, in its first instance, was honest. But once we're honest– now, also, everybody has then this desire to help each other. So, it starts to create a really lovely environment, where people are nurtured, and the ability to help, support, grow, and deliver to each other– it just happens. You don't have to force it. You don't have to write down a set of rules. You just create an environment that's ripe for– everything that's good that can come from that will naturally happen. 00:32:18 **Aleksandra King:** Trust– and then your clients know they can trust you, and they know that when you say something, you're really going to do it. You mean it. You do everything for them. 00:32:25 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. Everybody. You've got to live by it. And sometimes that means that honesty means that you're going to be having conversations that you'd rather not have, and you could divert from. You could be slightly dishonest– but actually, the consistency of a message– and I always say, in, you know, my business industry, I kind of call myself, characteristically, as Marmite. You know, some people don't like the reality of the honesty. 00:32:51 **Aleksandra King:** The truth. 00:32:53 **Robin Deller:** Others would rather maybe take the softer approach, where everything's quite cuddly and nice. It's not reality, but it's not confrontational, and some people prefer that journey. I personally don't. I think that if somebody has something to say to me, about anything, I'd rather– just tell me what it is, let me understand it, and let's work with it, and let's do whatever we need to do. 00:33:18 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:33:18 **Robin Deller:** And I think once you start telling half-truths, you then end up in a journey of, what did I say– that, you know, last time we spoke, what did I say? Whereas if I just know I just said what was– what is– I don't have to try and think about our conversation and how this is going to go. I'm just going to continue it from where we left off. And if I've said something before, I'd stand by it today, and if I say something today, I'll stand by it in the future. And actually, what you realise is, people fall into two camps. Some people just naturally cling to that kind of way of being– that honest persona– and they like you for it. Others struggle with it initially, but there will come points in time during the journey, in the relationship you have, where they see the value. And they see that perhaps some of the things you've said, or the conversations you've had where honesty has been quite negative– they see that actually there's benefits they've gained further down the line from that reality. 00:34:15 **Aleksandra King:** I just think life's too short to not tell the truth. Just say how you feel, you know– even in silly things, you know, people cheating and things like that. I think, "Well, why didn't you just tell them you're not interested anymore?" 00:34:24 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, you don't need to do that. 00:34:25 **Aleksandra King:** You know, actually, you can simplify it, take a lot of the stress away. 00:34:29 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, it saves you time. It's just inefficient. 00:34:31 **Aleksandra King:** Exactly. One thing that I find is– you know, I don't like inefficiency. 00:34:35 **Robin Deller:** Yes. 00:34:36 **Aleksandra King:** I don't like time-wasting. That's annoying to me. So, you similar? 00:34:39 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, I'm very similar, and I think when we look at KPIs– in every business, if you haven't got them, you'll end up with them as you grow, and they're helpful. So, the KPIs we set within our business, we define through doing it ourselves. So– I don't know– we're going to, for example, in our business, we're going to send tickets to customers for their holiday. I would get one of my senior team to spend hours sending tickets, to understand– somebody who's got the right mindset, has a capability of doing that role– what's achievable, without going to, like, an extreme scenario. What is underperformance, and therefore what should we be looking to achieve, and therefore who are we looking to employ? So– and that exists pretty much within all the KPIs. We've probably got a hundred KPIs in the business. But rather than guess what the outcome should be, and what the KPI should look like– why don't we just do the job? You know, if we've got to take the rubbish out– yeah, how many black bin liners can you fill up and send out to a bin a hundred yards away over a period of an hour? I don't know– let's try it. We'll all grab them, do it. 00:35:52 **Aleksandra King:** A way of doing it. 00:35:52 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. And then we know, when we then ask the staff to deliver on that KPI, we know that KPI has been proven. 00:35:59 **Aleksandra King:** Mhm. 00:35:59 **Robin Deller:** We know it's sensible, and then it's fair to expect that that will be the delivery, and that will go into the expectations of the business– that that's what we're looking to achieve. 00:36:09 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So, you decide to sell your business, Fast Track, to Virgin. 00:36:13 **Robin Deller:** Yes. 00:36:14 **Aleksandra King:** Did you meet Richard Branson? 00:36:17 **Robin Deller:** I've not met Richard. I've had letters from Richard, when we sold. 00:36:20 **Aleksandra King:** A letter from him. 00:36:21 **Robin Deller:** Richard has people that do those things for me. 00:36:24 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So, you get into this room with these people. Were you intimidated? Were you afraid? 00:36:30 **Robin Deller:** I honestly thought \[laughter\] I would– 00:36:32 **Aleksandra King:** Did you sweat? What did you feel? 00:36:36 **Robin Deller:** I think my character– well, I said, I know what I got. Yeah– so I became– I ended up on the board at Virgin Holidays. 00:36:41 **Aleksandra King:** Oh. 00:36:41 **Robin Deller:** And I think I was– I predicted that I would be intimidated, if that makes sense, because I assumed my worth was less than theirs. Like, who am I? They are working for this amazing brand. I've loved the Virgin brand. 00:36:59 **Aleksandra King:** I love the Virgin brand. I love them. They're so good. 00:37:02 **Robin Deller:** Brand. All of a sudden, I've gone from running an independent company, to being propositioned by the brand, to then selling to the brand, to then being on the board of Virgin Holidays as a brand. And then, after maybe two or three board meetings, I realised that any preconceptions I had about what those people would look like, how they'd behave, and how I would struggle– they went away. And actually, I kind of felt empowered. And what I realised is that when you build an organisation from the ground up, you've got so many skills– that if you come into a business part of the way through, and you end up in a department doing something, there's so much to business that you just will never understand, because you won't have gone through it. Quite right– you wouldn't have need to go through it. So, I felt that I was able to give those board meetings a new take, a new view, of whatever the subject matter might have been in those board meetings. Obviously, over a period of years, that changed– 00:38:06 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:38:06 **Robin Deller:** regularly. But no, I believe I added genuine value to that board meeting, and I got to the point where I was excited to go to them. I felt valued in them, and the feedback I got from them was positive as well. 00:38:18 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So, you were scared at first, and you grew into the role. And now let's take it further. So, then– you go to the Emirates Group, or they come to you? How does that work? 00:38:28 **Robin Deller:** So, again, same– so– 00:38:30 **Aleksandra King:** You– yeah, they proposition you. Dare I say, it's even a little– it's a step up there. And then you– can I say– give away 50%? More than 50%? Was it 51%? 00:38:45 **Robin Deller:** 51%. 51%, yeah. 00:38:46 **Aleksandra King:** Because then they are the majority stakeholders in the business. 00:38:49 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:38:50 **Aleksandra King:** And how does that feel, first of all? Because it's your baby, and you've made that decision– and I'll ask you why you made that decision. 00:38:58 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:38:58 **Aleksandra King:** But then also, there's seller's remorse. You didn't fully sell. You're still in the business, but then someone else has majority power– 00:39:07 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 00:39:07 **Aleksandra King:** over you– who know all of this, and have this history. So– how does that work with your mind? Like, how are you able to process that? 00:39:15 **Robin Deller:** I think– so, when we sold to Virgin, I would say seller's remorse kicked in quite quickly. And in hindsight– 00:39:24 **Aleksandra King:** When you say quite quickly– six months? 00:39:26 **Robin Deller:** Weeks. 00:39:27 **Aleksandra King:** Oh. 00:39:27 **Robin Deller:** Within weeks, I was questioning– 00:39:31 **Aleksandra King:** You were questioning– 00:39:32 **Robin Deller:** Why did I do it? So– financially, it was a good decision, but I kind of– I didn't realise that what you're left with is nothing. You know, you've got money, but now you are almost alone, because all the staff stay, obviously. Your staff– your staff that you've nurtured becomes someone else's staff. 00:39:53 **Aleksandra King:** It's hard. It's hard. 00:39:54 **Robin Deller:** So, they all stay there. All my friends now are at work in the company I used to own. So, it was helpful to me– understanding what that feeling's like, and the value of the money. And the celebration– there was no celebration. I didn't feel like celebrating. 00:40:10 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:40:10 **Robin Deller:** So, that crescendo didn't occur. 00:40:14 **Aleksandra King:** That this is a very real thing– a lot of business people have serious seller's remorse. 00:40:19 **Robin Deller:** So, I think that then allowed me, with Imagine, to have a different approach– 00:40:24 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:40:25 **Robin Deller:** and understanding as to– well, if you're looking for some day where this happens, and, you know, fireworks and blue– that's not going to happen. So, what are you doing, and why are you doing it? And I think for me, when we started Imagine– my desire– whereas Fast Track was a UK business, sold to Virgin Holidays, operated again the UK business– I just wanted to challenge myself, understand my capabilities, and therefore Imagine was always going to be an international business. So, today we've got offices in the UK. We've got an office in Cape Town, we've got an office in Brisbane, in Perth, in Australia, and we're opening in the US in a couple of weeks. So, that was the journey there. But the difference between the Emirates Group and Virgin is– Virgin decided upon a business, they wanted to change it. And they made multiple changes, and they made them relatively quickly. Which always seemed odd to me– why you would pay so much money, and then you'd want to change it the moment you got it. 00:41:21 **Aleksandra King:** It hurts as well. It's like– \[laughter\] 00:41:23 **Robin Deller:** The Dubai mentality– 00:41:24 **Aleksandra King:** It personally– you think, why? 00:41:26 **Robin Deller:** The Dubai mentality– and I think people are much more– you know, we sold 50% in 2015\. You know, we're 10 years on now. The word Dubai now is much more familiar with people, I think. 00:41:37 **Aleksandra King:** Yes. 00:41:38 **Robin Deller:** Certainly from a business perspective. The mentality of the group in Dubai is completely different to the mentality that I saw come from the Virgin Group, and probably most UK businesses. They are not looking to change the business. I've grown the business since that purchase, back in 2015\. The decisions, and the way we've grown the business, have been my decisions. Every time I've needed support to go and evolve, or perhaps do an acquisition– we did an acquisition in Australia five or six years ago– they have supported me in a way that I would never have assumed. They have been the best business partner you could ever hope for. Yes, they've got expectations, obviously, and we've got budgets to meet, etc. But in terms of their belief in me, their belief in the business, and what they want from the business– they want me to enjoy the process of making this company the best it can be. And they're willing to back that concept, whatever that might be. 00:42:48 **Aleksandra King:** Backers, yeah. They're more backers of you. 00:42:50 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. They give you the confidence, and obviously they've got infrastructure, support mechanisms, to assist in some way through that process. But sometimes the biggest hurdle you have when you run a business is somebody giving you the confidence that you can. Because especially when you're a CEO– if you're starting your own company, probably everybody questions why you start your own company anyway. So those feedbacks can be quite– 00:43:15 **Aleksandra King:** Instead– get a job instead, yeah. Why are you doing this, you know? Don't take these risks. 00:43:19 **Robin Deller:** So, I think now we're in a really fortunate position, where we've got shareholders that are hugely supportive– are more than happy for us to go and say, we're the launch in America in a few weeks– that'll be the biggest ambition we've ever had. It's the biggest market in the cruise industry, 10 times bigger than the UK. But we'll start it as if it's a startup. It'll be the same process. You know, we'll start small, we'll learn, we'll grow. As soon as we see green, we'll bank it. Amber, we'll reflect. Red, we'll push to one side. The only benefit we have now is we can do things at speed. Because we know the process and scale. 00:43:57 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So, now you're on a different level when it comes to pricing– what you charge, you know, all the pricing models. But going back just to the original days, when you had to charge someone for something, and you had to ask for money, and anything like that– did you ever have this little feeling that's similar to the one in the boardroom, where you went in for the first time with Virgin, thinking, well– but I feel a little bit intimidated? Did you ever think, oh, I feel guilty charging, almost? Or did you always know– that's my value, I'm okay to charge– because I'm very sort of, business is business. I mean, you understand the psychological question behind it. 00:44:35 **Robin Deller:** I understand. And I think– actually, the way Imagine works, that hurdle has been what's helped us grow. So, we've created a business that curates cruise holidays, and the message to the consumer is value. So, the value proposition is drawn from a ton of negotiations by individual suppliers. So, we are trying to buy well. And we're trying to offer the consumer an opportunity to experience something at amazing value. So, that kind of methodology of the way our business works– and we're known for value. Our biggest message is, we're a value proposition. We're not cheap– our average holidays are over 5,000 pound a person– but they're great value. But that business kind of became through an understanding that actually, people will pay. So, when you say, you know, do you have concerns about charging– actually, I don't. My concern would more be about– if they pay, have I given them value, for whatever that might be? So, am I abusing the relationship? Because there will be many opportunities in business for you to have a quick win. Somebody perhaps hasn't seen something, or misread something, or you can be discreet and maybe gain. All I know from my journey is that there's no longevity. You can't build a budget that says that's going to happen, and when it's going to happen, or what the outcome will be. So, what you're looking for is consistency, and therefore, knowing your value– whether that's you as a person doing something, whether that's your company offering a service– people will pay. And actually, the hardest thing, as a consumer, is finding a company to trust that can give you that thing, that service, whatever it might be that you're after. That's really– that's the gap you're trying to fill. Not questioning– but, am I worthy? You know, now I've built this thing, is it right to charge for this thing? Am I charging too much? The customer will determine the value. So, if you are charging too much, sales will slow down. If you're not charging enough, sales will be too rapid. It will find its place– where you've landed on the consumer acknowledging, through the purchasing mechanism, that they are happy and content with the value; you being happy, through your return on investment, that the money you've invested is now driving profit. And you just want to– once you've understood that environment– protect that. And then the business going forward should be based on– that's the foundation. Now everything we do is based on the core principles of– we're an undefined team, between us, the consumer, the supplier, the retailer, whoever it might be. Fairness is what we're looking for. Value– we all want to see value in each other, whether it's monetary value or personal value. And everybody will have a different opinion as to what the definition of that is. And the way to deal with that is to ask– you know, what do you want out of this? And then to commit. Okay, so if we move forward now, I know what you want, and you understand what I need. My commitment to you is that this is what we're going to do. This is how we're going to do it. This is the period of time. 00:48:02 **Aleksandra King:** However, if I may– clients do change their mind, and then they want something, and it changes. You have that too. It's not always that linear. 00:48:12 **Robin Deller:** I think in certain industries, probably more than that, and I understand what you're saying. I can think of certain areas I've worked in where– when you start talking about marketing, or IT, or data– those things kind of wobble a bit in terms of the definition of. But I think you've just got to lock it in. So, my attitude would be like– my success is making real the commitment I've made, for– you know, either on my own behalf, or on the behalf of the business– to give you something that you desire, in a predetermined fashion, over a predetermined period. So, I would then take that commit– I mean, I would take that commitment hugely seriously. We live off of these commitments, because what they do is they create a CV. That's how I explain it internally. I just want a better CV next year than this year, you know? I want more people saying, we work with Imagine, we work with Robin, we did these things, and it was great. Okay– and I just want that to grow. The power of that is effectively what's going to open the doors going forward. And you'll see, as you grow, and as you deliver, and as you either deliver on your promises– or, if you're not, the moment you realise you're not, be very open, and take that story to the individual. 00:49:30 **Aleksandra King:** I know from my industry and what I do– because marketing is sometimes considered a fluffy thing, a little extra. You know, people of businesses know you need it. Investments vary– 4%, 10%, 12%– depending on whether you're in– whatever you want to– however you want to look at it, whether it's digital, AI, you know, you can carry on and on and on. But, you know, the way that I look at this is– I go back to, like, my consulting roots, and the value, almost down to an hourly level. But I really look at the sales. You know– since I've joined, my team have joined, and you've done this initiative and that initiative– what exact monetary benefit have you had from us? And I get really worried about that. You know, it's like my thing. I have to know that– otherwise, I feel immensely guilty, and I want to know. And if it's not positive, I'll make sure it is positive. And that's how I look at it. I believe, maybe– there's, you know, in a way– sales is so important, ultimately. Even marketing people– you know, you're taking something to market, but at the end of the day, you want to sell your products. You want to present them in the right way for that brand. Make it look amazing. But your job, as a marketing agency, as a marketing hire, is to move the dial on those sales, full stop. And I think some industries– estate agents– like, in my personal life, estate agents– well, I don't know, you know, they've got a reputation. Probably not as bad today, actually, but historically, a bad reputation about just being open. And I was going to see an estate agent today for the podcast, but– \[laughter\] 00:51:07 **Robin Deller:** Marketing, for me– my history of marketing is not– it's not naturally pleasant. I find that– 00:51:16 **Aleksandra King:** How can you say that? 00:51:18 **Robin Deller:** It depends on the subject matter, and that changes over time. So, I would say, historically, words like SEO strategies– everybody's promising you the earth. And in reality– and the more you do it, and the more you understand it– is, people are telling you what you want to hear. I like marketing that, as you were saying, is more definable. I think your marketing budget should be split, depending on your business, into– that's your mechanism of investing in something, to create income, to drive profit. So, having a relationship between the money you invest and the outcome is critical. 00:51:56 **Aleksandra King:** Absolutely critical. Absolutely. 00:51:58 **Robin Deller:** I have analysts. I have a whole analytical team that sit around a table every day, and they analyse every pound we spend. We spend millions, but every pound we spend has a predetermined expectation. It then has an actual outcome, and a variance, and everything's tracked, every day, and the business is updated on those. And again, going back to the green, amber, red– if you have a marketing agency that is able to demonstrate to a business that, if they hand you their money, you can invest it for them and create profit– 00:52:34 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:52:35 **Robin Deller:** well, then, in the world I live, I would just keep giving money. 00:52:38 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. And it's funny you say that– analyst– because I come from an analytical background. So, I started in billing systems analysis, and I used to implement billing systems around the world, and that's what I did, and I lived in the data. And it wasn't really for me, because it wasn't enough people, and I love the whole lot of media– why am I doing a podcast? You know, I'm just more of a salesy person, and that was my strength– the ability to communicate with developers and translate these difficult concepts to these big telco bosses, and go, "Actually, you know, you need this, but you need it in this way. Otherwise, that makes no sense. And by the way, you're losing money here, and, you know, on the switch–" and, you know, it got quite technical. But you would take these things, and you'd break them up, and you'd market them in a way– it's like marketing, because you're presenting it in the way that you know they'll get it. 00:53:25 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. And I think that's it. Yeah– when you're speaking in the world of marketing, you know, it goes back to, you know, my desire to ask a million questions. I've decided that understanding the analytics that sit behind the money we spend, and the marketing, and the way marketing works in different– it's become a critical source of growth. So, I've taken it upon myself to go and understand that industry. But I think this is where small businesses go wrong. I think that it's very easy to waste money in marketing. And it's actually not that difficult to track the success of marketing. 00:53:59 **Aleksandra King:** No, it's not difficult. It's not that difficult. 00:54:02 **Robin Deller:** But I think small businesses don't focus on that area of the business from day one. So, what they'll find is, they're spending money on something defined as marketing. They probably can't tell you how well that's done, and therefore they don't know what to do next. Whereas I would argue that the moment you invest money in marketing, as any business, you need to map out what you're doing– why have you invested that money? What's the metric you're going to use to quantify whether or not it worked? Let's just say, then, before you even spend the money– assume it works. If it works, what would you do next? Is it something that you can build upon, or is there a ceiling limit? Because I'd argue, if there's a ceiling limit, it probably isn't something, again, that's helpful in the early stages, where you're looking for growth. You're looking for a way of investing money in marketing, a tracking mechanism– that you can either go and research the best way to track it– mainly it'll be common sense– or maybe ask the person that's selling you the marketing, "How will we know if this works?" 00:55:13 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:55:14 **Robin Deller:** But if you can get that element of your business right– how do I spend money on generating a communication piece to a consumer, to trigger an output that creates a mechanism of income– your business is going to be amazing. 00:55:28 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:55:28 **Robin Deller:** I mean, literally, if you can just crack that part, everything else will change. What you sell, how you sell it, who you sell it to, the age demographics of those people, where they live, which country you sell it in– whether it's in the UK, or America, or Australia. The baseline of understanding the money you're spending, what you expect, and how that will help you grow– sit down and understand that model, and if it says you can't prove that you can make money, I would question why. If it feels like, to make money, you've got to fly to the moon, it's probably not going to work. But if it feels fair and reasonable that this investment could create a profit margin that you can use to grow– focus in that area, and acknowledge, at the end of the spend– and whether that's a day, a week or a month– did, or it didn't. And what does that mean? And now– it did– what do I do with it? And if it didn't– regardless of what the marketing company say, turn it red– in the bin. Don't get drawn into how to turn red into green, because red is unlikely to turn green. 00:56:31 **Aleksandra King:** But, you know, marketing people– marketing, especially in big companies– you know, the marketing departments, when they're gigantic departments– you sort of come in there, and then they can be so rigid, too, and set in their ways, and they like to just go to their event thing twice a year. 00:56:48 **Robin Deller:** I think that's more corporate. 00:56:49 **Aleksandra King:** It's very, yeah. That's a whole another word. But there isn't this elasticity, and– not even risk-taking, just a little bit of creativity, to go, like– let's just– 00:57:01 **Robin Deller:** I agree. It becomes really taxing. I almost think that having marketing budgets– well, by definition, a marketing budget should not be– you can predetermine what you think it will be, but it should be the one element of your business that is willing to move as much as it needs to, based on what it sees. 00:57:20 **Aleksandra King:** Yes, based on what it sees. Yeah. 00:57:22 **Robin Deller:** And I think that the difference between perhaps being part of a corporate business– the desire to understand the intricacies of how you've spent that money, and how that's played out, is less so than in an SME, where, you know, we can't fail at this. We're probably not spending it on our brand. We're probably spending it on creating income, and failure would effectively mean disaster. 00:57:46 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. Because that's where the risk is, mainly. 00:57:48 **Robin Deller:** And again, you know, you can do it in big business. We are now– we've got a marketing department of– going to say, around 30 people. 00:57:55 **Aleksandra King:** Really? 00:57:56 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, it's a big part of the business, and we run that department like an SME. 00:58:02 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:58:02 **Robin Deller:** So, everything is– every penny we spend is like how I spent it 10 years ago. The fact that we've grown– what I know about the mechanism we've created is, you can upscale it. I mean, I could do it if we were 10 times bigger. The mechanism of tracking through data– so that if you sit in a room with a group of people to discuss success or failure of a campaign, say– it's not an opinion, because we don't do opinions. It did, or it didn't. It's either green, or it's amber, or it's red. It's red– we got burnt. That's fine. That's part of our evolution. 00:58:40 **Aleksandra King:** Be honest. Be honest. 00:58:41 **Robin Deller:** If it's green, can we grow it? Because that would be fantastic. And if it's amber, can we adjust it, send it out again, and see if we can turn it green? But we really do– we still work in that environment as a small business, because that's been a big benefit of ours– to get us to where we are is being wise, and sensible, and not getting drawn into this world of fluff. Because it can get like that, where you just don't know where the money's gone, what it's done, and you've got no concept whether or not you should do it again. 00:59:17 **Aleksandra King:** You've got to be able to track the income back to the money that you've invested. You've got to be able to do that. And your marketing people need to be talking to your sales people, or looking at those sales numbers, just constantly. It's just– that's what it is. 00:59:30 **Robin Deller:** That's there. Yeah. That is– and some marketing individuals, some marketing businesses, don't like that. I think it's a really healthy relationship, where– 00:59:38 **Aleksandra King:** Why wouldn't they like it? 00:59:40 **Robin Deller:** I think that– I think marketing can be perceived as a skill that sits independently of the rest of the business, rather than a component of the business that, equally, is variable in the way it speaks. So, I can say this in this way, or I can say this in this way. Those two ways– those A/B versions of the same thing– have different outcomes, and therefore, inevitably, will create a different return on investment. So, they are incorporated. But I think– I think, again, in corporate business, people tend to stay in their lane more. And, as I say, the SME kind of mentality is– but we're a team. No, we want to know everything about everything– and it's great, because knowledge is really powerful. 01:00:23 **Aleksandra King:** And that is so true. Yeah, I've worked across– I've had a taste of all the different ones, and also in the big agencies work– big marketing agencies– I see how things work there, and I see, you know, the small agency, and how corporate– so, it is totally different. Totally different atmosphere. Let's talk about another important purchase– is the employees, the resources, the people that you work with. How do you know, instinctively, who to go for, who not to go for? Like, what is that thing? 01:00:52 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. So, I think that will change as growth occurs. I think if you're trying to establish a new business, or you're maybe one or two years into trading of your business– in the early days, it's gut feeling. Gut feeling is the most powerful tool you have. And I always say to people– where I lacked capabilities at school, what it seemed to leave me with was an abundance of common sense. Common sense to me seems to be like a superpower. I can clearly see that, you know, something from a common sense perspective is obviously positive, and even if somebody's saying that it's not– and the same is true of the reverse. So– so, it's that kind of common sense, applied with gut feeling. I always say– generally, if I've interviewed– again, going back over time– not really interested in CVs. I'll get someone– 01:01:52 **Aleksandra King:** I was going to ask you– what does a good CV look like to you? So– you don't look at CVs? 01:01:56 **Robin Deller:** No. So– because I find that they position the conversation too specifically, because you've already got a predetermined conversation, because they've said, my name is– I love these hobbies– I do these things. 01:02:07 **Aleksandra King:** So, you don't sit there, like on The Apprentice, and, like, they rip– and what– \[laughter\] 01:02:10 **Robin Deller:** No. So, I'll have– there'll be a process before me, where somebody is ensuring that there is a capability of the individual that gives them a place at the table for me to speak to. So, I'm then going to assume, by the time I speak to them, that they could do this job. Doesn't mean much– so, it doesn't mean that they're right for us, or we're right for them. So, once I speak to them– literally, it's just like this. It would just be– forget whatever you wrote on your CV, because you had to. You know– they're quite regimented, aren't they, CVs? Who are you? What is it you want out of life? And I will look to sell them the worst version of our business as possible. I will try and put them off. So, my objective is– I need to get rid of as many of these individuals as possible through the process of recruitment, to save the cost, the time, the effort, to me and that person, once we've triggered the actual employment process. So, I will be very raw about who we are, what we do, what we expect. There are many positives, but there are expectations. Even something, you know, just– using the word we spoke about earlier– being honest. Like, I am non-moving. If you show any dishonest attributes, we would just cut ties. 01:03:38 **Aleksandra King:** You'd say that in the first meeting. 01:03:39 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. Because I think it is so important– but not everybody is honest in life, or in business. So, I need to make sure I've said it, because it's going to mean a lot to me, and therefore, if it turns out that, for an employment process, you're not honest, you'll understand why there's no conversation to be had from my perspective. Like, you've literally broken the trust. There's nothing to build on. There's no foundation. But other than that, it would be general conversation. I think you get a feel for people. So– could I work with this person? Personality– dependent upon role, because that probably will shift considerably, dependent upon the role they're looking for. What do they want out of life? How ambitious are they? And where in their life cycle are they, as well? So, I think timing is important as well. I think there's a right and a wrong time to move into certain parts of your career. And if you get that wrong, it might be the right business, but the wrong time. So, it's trying to understand that. But generally, it's about the person. Who am I? Who are you? And can I see you as being part of our team? Would I enjoy spending time with you? Would my team enjoy spending time with you? Because I think if you are open to being part of a team, to learning– I think that's kind of what we're after. We want to mentor everybody we employ, so that we get all the skills they've got. We want to suck that in. That's the reason we're taking them on board. But we want to give back all the things we know that quite possibly they wouldn't know. And those collective things will give them their career. 01:05:18 **Aleksandra King:** That makes sense. It makes it easier for anyone listening– just, you know– yeah, get outside the CV, and get the conversation going. Work on your interpersonal skills. You know, a lot of people spend time on technology, especially the younger ones, and you've got to practise the conversation. 01:05:34 **Robin Deller:** Because that's what the reality will be– if, you know, if you go and employ them, that format of an interview will never happen again. You're not going to be sat– you're going to be working in a much more kind of normal environment. Again, I try and do that. It's quite difficult sometimes, but– you know, there's no such thing as wrong or right in anything you say. And it's difficult, because this is artificial, this interview. Try your best to be you. Yeah– because you're going to be you pretty quickly if you come into the business. Within a couple of months, you'll kind of take off the shackles of expectations, and your personality will appear– and try and give me that today. Because my concern would be that you are right, but you don't know how to present that. And the formal environment of a typical interview kind of, I think, hides that personality– 01:06:25 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:06:26 **Robin Deller:** the human being that sits behind– you know, that hides behind, I don't know, qualifications, or things like that. 01:06:32 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. Okay, we'll talk about something slightly different now. Diary of a CEO style. Your day. I mean, what does your day look like, for productivity? Do you do, like, mind exercises? Do you journal? Like, do you play golf? Like, what do you do? 01:06:46 **Robin Deller:** So, typically– I love learning. So, on my journey into work– it's not that long, actually. I could probably do it being longer. It's about 20 minutes in a car. But– podcast. 01:06:57 **Aleksandra King:** Podcast– what do you listen to? 01:07:01 **Robin Deller:** Lots of different– so, I would say Steven Bartlett would be an example, but it depends on the subject matter. I'm listening a lot to AI at the moment, but I'm– I'm not really learning from it. I feel like I don't know any more than I knew when I started the process, maybe six months ago, and everybody seems to have their own version of what that is. So, I don't know. I like listening to people. My favourite is kind of similar to this– you know, someone talking about their journey of life. What they've done, how they did it, what they found, learnings that have come from it. And there'll be snippets, and quite often, what I'll do– I'll hear something, and I will screenshot it. I'll then go into the office, and I'll pull people in the room, and I'll say– you just need to listen to this. Like, this is us. We just are not very eloquent at the way we say it, but when we talk about what we do, and how we do it, and why it's special– this person just said it in a way that's amazing. And I think we need to start kind of using this. So– maybe, of a two-hour podcast, there may be nothing that particularly lands as something I'll hold on to, or there may be something that is, I don't know, 60 seconds long, but it's massively inspiring. Even today, for me. 01:08:20 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:08:20 **Robin Deller:** And I'm like– that's just– that's super cool. And I want to share it to everybody that I think– you're not going to have heard that. It's inspirational. You need to hear it. Or– even sometimes, I've even bought books and given them staff, where maybe somebody on a podcast has written a book. I've heard them in conversation on a podcast. I bought my book– and while I'm doing that, I'm thinking, I could buy another dozen, give them round to some of the staff, because it's just– yeah, you know, inspirational. So, that's my journey in. Then, as soon as I get into the office, I do a kind of snapshot of– what does today look like, as a preplanned expectation? And that will be a combination of things, dependent upon the day of the week, the week of the month, but it'll be spending time with the senior team, and also with the strategic team. I've kind of siphoned off a separate part of the organisation that is allowed to go and look at the future, without having a tie to the budget that we have today. So, America would be one of those now. There's a team that have no responsibilities in the business other than– prepare for our entrance into a new source market, understand the products we're going to sell, why those are going to be the products. So, over time– but on a day-to-day basis, there's nothing else you have to do. Or it might be something like– do it with the marketing team. We've got our kind of BAU marketers, then I've got a strategic team, where I'll come in and just say– I saw this thing on TV yesterday, and I think it's amazing. I think we should do it. But there's one we're doing now, actually– there's an app I found– 01:09:55 **Aleksandra King:** Mhm. 01:09:58 **Robin Deller:** which creates songs, and I am addicted to it. I'm going to use it for customer service. 01:10:03 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 01:10:03 **Robin Deller:** So, you put in some kind of storylines– not that complicated, maybe six or seven prompts. The quality that it outputs is unbelievable. So, I fell upon this about a month ago. But it's a good example of how I spend my time in a way that I didn't think I would be. So, we're now going to be– at the end of the holidays– we have– the holidays we sell, typically, are groups of 50 or 100 customers. Our average age demographic is around 68 years old. And we're going to get them together at the end of the holiday, and ask them to effectively give us the prompts. So– what was this holiday for you, as a group of people? What were the highlights? What did you see? Are there any people that you met? Anything that feels very memorable? What emotions have you felt? Run all that down. Put it into this app, and then, when they arrive home, there'll be a song for them. 01:10:59 **Aleksandra King:** Oh. 01:11:00 **Robin Deller:** The song will be their song, that would only make sense to them, on their holiday, with the people they went with. To anybody else, it would make no sense, because the memories are specific, and the emotions will be specific as well. So, there'll be some of my day which is just– I've seen this thing. I've got this idea. I've played with it. Can we do it? And now we can evolve it. Strategy. 01:11:20 **Aleksandra King:** Strategy. Is structured– you know, you know what you're going to do that day. You go in, you're learning, you're picking up on– 01:11:25 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 01:11:26 **Aleksandra King:** Set, like– you're looking– 01:11:27 **Robin Deller:** It's open to be completely empty, if need be. So– I have an understanding of how I should spend my day, based on what I know. But if I discover something along the way– and in the travel industry, that does happen– sometimes positive, quite often negative– you know, there are events around the world. For example, most recent would have been the war in Ukraine, where cruise ships then redeploy. We've got booking– a whole heap of things. So– I react to reality, rather than a predetermined expectation of how I spend my day. I try and think of myself as a teacher, and I want to spend as much of the day as possible mentoring– whoever, within that day, relative to what I'm trying to achieve– for a process of teaching and learning, rather than ticking a box called a meeting, or a presentation. It's a proper– how do I get this message across? How do I make it memorable? How do I get it to lock into them? So, again, going back to what I said earlier– we have an opportunity in this hour to give you something that forever will benefit you. How do I make that happen in this hour, rather than we just come in, do something, go out– then the next, then the next, then the next. So, I take that really seriously, because I love it. I enjoy that. 01:12:46 **Aleksandra King:** And how do you relax? 01:12:49 **Robin Deller:** Family. So– spend a lot of time with the family. We travel a lot together. Love holidays. 01:12:57 **Aleksandra King:** With business, it's not all golden things. You're going to have moments where it's hard, and you get stressed. 01:13:02 **Robin Deller:** I think– so, a couple of things. 01:13:05 **Aleksandra King:** To unstress? \[laughter\] Destress. 01:13:09 **Robin Deller:** I think it's changed over the years. I think in the first– I don't know– decade, even, I didn't find a way of– I just felt stress was inevitable, and, you know, I suck it up. And then I think, as time's gone on, I've realised that it's not healthy to have stress and to hold that in. And even– it's not healthy to just find something to do, to escape from it, because the stress isn't going to disappear. The thing that's happened is happened. 01:13:40 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. It's happened. 01:13:41 **Robin Deller:** It's almost like– okay, let's unpack it. Let's– who do I need to bring in the room? So, what's the subject? Who are the people? Bring them in. Let's unpack– again, going back to the honesty. What has happened? Why is it happened? And then how do we work together, as a team, to– 01:13:58 **Aleksandra King:** You're regaining control. 01:14:00 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. Regain control of it. Yeah. 01:14:01 **Aleksandra King:** Control. Yeah, own it. Don't let it just– don't hide from it. 01:14:06 **Robin Deller:** Don't let it control you. Don't let it control you. It almost certainly is repairable. It's not going to be the end– almost certainly– of you, the business, the week, the month, or even the day, or perhaps even the hour. You probably are– you've allowed it to scare you. Whereas I think when you own it, and you unpack it, and you realise it, you'll be able to realise, in most cases, that you just need a process of dealing with it. And you need a group of people that are best to execute that. And once that's been executed, or once that decision's been made, and that delegation's happened– move on. 01:14:45 **Aleksandra King:** Because it's going to keep happening. Yeah. And it's the same in your family life. 01:14:48 **Robin Deller:** But no– I love golf. I love travel. 01:14:59 **Aleksandra King:** Do you watch Traitors? 01:15:00 **Robin Deller:** I watch Traitors. I watch so much– 01:15:02 **Aleksandra King:** Paul Gordon coming in here– yeah, at 2:00– and I did the pre-podcast call with him, and I could just see his eyes. You know, he's– 01:15:11 **Robin Deller:** It's just such a genius programme. 01:15:14 **Aleksandra King:** Programme. 01:15:14 **Robin Deller:** And there are a number that come along, and they're so rare. Perhaps one every– I'd say three to five years– you'll get something that comes along that almost sounds a bit bland when it's presented to you. 01:15:24 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, you think that won't be good, but it works. 01:15:25 **Robin Deller:** It's amazing. So– 01:15:27 **Aleksandra King:** So psychological. 01:15:27 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, very psychological. Love that. 01:15:30 **Aleksandra King:** In business, an entrepreneur– you're going to appreciate it. And it's interesting, because obviously, as the viewer, you know more than the participants– which is the same, I guess, with The Apprentice as well. 01:15:40 **Robin Deller:** Yes. But you also see, though, the common downfalls of people. You know, for example, if you come in and you draw too much attention to yourself, and you– you know, you've got to play things a bit more, you know– 01:15:49 **Aleksandra King:** There's phased approaches, aren't there? Like, for the first couple of episodes, just lay low. It's the same as The Apprentice. Don't volunteer to be– 01:15:56 **Robin Deller:** I never did. 01:15:57 **Aleksandra King:** No, but yeah– it's an interesting thing, reality TV. You know, from this, I take a lot from you– the knowledge that you've imparted here– and thank you for your time. 01:16:06 **Robin Deller:** That's been really, really enjoyable. 01:16:07 **Aleksandra King:** You're a fantastic communicator. You're a very good salesperson. I think a lot of the success, from what I can see of you, is that you've got a way of transferring the company culture that's in your head to others. 01:16:21 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 01:16:21 **Aleksandra King:** You know, the whole thing about trust, and about breaking things down into understandable, controllable, and common sense, logical things to do– and scaling– the traffic light system. You've just worked it out. You've taken something so seemingly com– really com– and it is complicated, but you've made it digestible. To anyone watching– you can get it. 01:16:43 **Robin Deller:** I think that's your job as a business leader. If you let it, business can be ridiculously complicated. 01:16:49 **Aleksandra King:** Ridiculously. 01:16:50 **Robin Deller:** And you've got to realise that, to most people, that's not going to make any sense. If you're trying to create an understanding of how, holistically, you're going to take what you've got and grow it– most people are not going to understand that language, and probably won't even understand it yourself. You've got to find a way of simplifying that story down, and getting people on the bus. Finally– you're not going to build this business. You're going to need people to back you. 01:17:19 **Aleksandra King:** You're going to need a team. You're going to need finance. 01:17:21 **Robin Deller:** You're going to need money. You're going to need a whole heap of people to believe in you. Your main job is to commit– to be honest with yourself that you believe. Like, you truly believe. And then to simplify the detail that sits behind why that belief exists, and get everybody to onboard– and effectively, they're backing you. Because if you're wrong, it's unlikely that they've got the ability to change direction– especially in the early stages, where you just don't have enough experience and data to support what you feel. You just– you know, you've done as much research as you can, but reality is– until you start, you know, you don't know anything. But I think that's it. I think– enjoyed being a leader. You know, I love building teams. I love mentoring people. I love learning. You know, it's a two-way street. Be excitable. I must still consider myself, today, to be a bit immature at times. You know, when we've achieved certain things, I feel like a six-year-old. And they won't necessarily come in an order of the size of the prize. They'll be where– you know you've achieved something that people doubted, or you doubted yourself. They were not easy– even though they may not add the biggest benefit at a point in time. But you know that, through that exercise and that journey, you're allowing the business to become something that lends itself to where you want to go. And you know that, if you look behind, everybody's waiting to say– what next? What are we doing? And they may think you're crazy. I know a lot of my staff, over the years– some of the ideas I've come up with that they just don't understand why, what, where, and how. But then you look five years later, and it all makes sense. 01:19:14 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, there's a fine line between– yeah, between sanity and insanity, I'd say. And a lot of business people would have to be crazy to do the things that they're doing, and to put themselves, actually, at such risk. 01:19:25 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 01:19:26 **Aleksandra King:** You know, take these loans, and everything. You know, there is– the only scary side, I would say, of business– and anyone watching it– is the whole, like– like, is your belief in yourself– you can believe in yourself, but let's hope you're not blindly believing in yourself, and– yeah. 01:19:42 **Robin Deller:** Some people, I think, get stubborn– through, maybe, they've either invested time, effort or money, and they feel there's no turning back. And I think every one of those points, you've got to be true to yourself. Because you're not only going to let yourself down– and you're going to judge yourself on the outcome– you're going to let other people down. But just be honest with yourself, and not everything works. Failure is okay. You know– and success is great, but it doesn't exist at every corner. And just because you failed once doesn't mean you can't go on and achieve, and just because you've achieved once doesn't mean you're always going to be successful. Everything's momentarily. The main thing is– learn. Back to the honesty. Be honest with yourself, be honest with the people around you, and have a way of checking, constantly, with what you expect to see– and is that what you're seeing? 01:20:31 **Aleksandra King:** With reality– because you mustn't lose touch with reality, and that does happen. You know, I've seen that. I've been around business my whole life, from a little kid– watching my dad and his friends, and, you know, my husband– and now myself. You know– but it is slightly– you can get put off when you see, you know, the negative side of business, and then you think– oh, but the highs are so high, and they're so wonderful. So business is a– but it's also very interesting for me, and I know that our viewers watching, who want to get into business, or even who want to advance in their role within a company, and they want to do better– it's always important to hear from others that have had that success. 01:21:06 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 01:21:07 **Aleksandra King:** And look at that success. Look at how that's worked, and, like you're saying, replicate the things that work– not– 01:21:13 **Robin Deller:** And again, the traffic light system you can apply to every element, including yourself. You know– have I spent my– adding value? Have I been a green person today? Have I kind of been there, but not really done much? Or have I wasted the day? 01:21:28 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:21:29 **Robin Deller:** And am I going through every day of the week building up, and adding value to me, myself, my career, and to the business I'm working for? And one of the other things I'd say is– when business owners are looking to grow, growth will almost certainly include evolving structure, and most of us like to bring on board and elevate the people we're familiar with working with. So, rather than take on recruitment externally– being able to mentor people and see them grow internally is much more satisfying. 01:22:05 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:22:05 **Robin Deller:** And finding people that stand out internally is quite difficult. So, if you are a person who is achieving– don't be shy. You know– explain, showcase– you know, maybe ask for time with your boss, in a way that's just about you– not about the business, not about them– but don't be shy about wanting to go on, wanting to achieve, and don't be shy about asking people to challenge you more. Business can't help but being structured, to a degree, and if you've got a role within a company– it expects certain things– go and ask for more. A bit like you would at school, if you were academic– can I have more homework? Do the same in business. Is there anything else I can help with, that sits outside of what you expected me– that I can learn something, and you'll gain from it? Those kind of characteristics– they're lovely to see in individuals. They don't happen enough, but they're very memorable, and you bank them, and as you grow, you pull those people with you. 01:23:02 **Aleksandra King:** As I was listening to you talk– this is a question just from myself, and my own experience. I spent a very long part of my career being a really, really good employee. Like, really good. You know, I'll stay late, and I did what you say– I would go up and say, I've finished my work, what can I do? Is there anything else I can do? I'm done– it now. You know, is there anything– what can I do? What can I do? And I've watched people get fired around me, and I've watched them, and I thought– I'm a really good employee, because I will work, like– I will just, till kingdom come, and I'm going to do everything, and do that. And– but then, to transfer that mentality from being a really good employee– 01:23:35 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 01:23:35 **Aleksandra King:** to now being a business owner– 01:23:37 **Robin Deller:** Yes. 01:23:38 **Aleksandra King:** and you have to think about, you know, charging– because I was always so loyal to the clients, and making sure the absolute value– but then to translate it to– but I now have to make this extra money, because I've got this agency– and it's like– the mentality. Yeah. It's okay managing people– that's fine, because, you know, as an employee, you can do that. You can manage teams, and all that kind of thing, but– 01:23:58 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 01:23:59 **Aleksandra King:** What is that mindset between being a manager of a business and being an employee? How do you see that? 01:24:07 **Robin Deller:** I think, if a business is run well– where I'm talking about people that are capable, wanting, willing– and everybody's different. So, when I say we're looking for these characteristics– where some businesses fail is, those people can be perceived as threats. So, it depends on the structure of the business. If those people are managed by someone who would like to maybe not let that work ethic, participation, known– then move out of the business and go elsewhere. You need to work in an environment where what you do, and your attitude to the business, and your work ethic, and everything, is celebrated, is acknowledged, and opens doors. 01:24:57 **Aleksandra King:** Right. 01:24:57 **Robin Deller:** I don't think every business is structured to give you that as an opportunity. So– it should be fairly easy to see. Most businesses don't hide that. You know– and I'd say a good business– any business is going to struggle to find the majority of the staff having that attribute, and that, for a good business– should see, acknowledge, embrace and evolve with that person. And that may be an agreement that there's a moment in time where we're doing something, and we'd like to bring you in then– so it might not be today, might be in six months or a year– but we can acknowledge– we see it, acknowledge that we would like that way of working to continue, and we think it's a really good behaviour pattern, and that, if we can, in the future, we're going to embrace that and bring you into opportunities that perhaps sit beyond what you see today. And then it's back to the trust. Do you trust me to have your back? 01:26:00 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:26:00 **Robin Deller:** To take you on that journey. Because I'm just being honest in that moment in time. I'm being honest that I see it, I hear it, and– the moment I can embrace that, I will– but today may not be the right day. So, if you don't see that today, don't get down– keep it up, because it definitely will come and bear through. That would be my way of doing that. But, as I say, businesses are different, and management styles are different. But I think entrepreneurial companies understand the value in people, because they probably started off creating their first level of success just because there were a small group of them in a room, working their backsides off, giving everything– and the value was obvious– that, had we not done that, we wouldn't have– we wouldn't have existed beyond that moment in time. Whereas, I say, if you come into a business that's been around for a while, and you come into a department, and you're a management– it's just a moment in time within that organisation, and you're probably not as close to the individuals within that business. It's more structured. Where, I say, even our business today– we speak to all the staff, all the time. We're very much still trying to have that family attitude to the way in which we work. And, you know, anybody in my office here in the UK– my students– I'm an open book. If you want to ask a question– whoever you are, whatever you do. We actually have, like, a new starter structure as well, where we bring all the new starters– over a period of, say, three months, regardless of seniority and department– together with the senior team. Because I think that's where, sometimes, there's a fear factor of– well, I can't speak to you, because– and our only job, in that one or two hours, sat down, having a coffee, is to break the barrier down, and just to say– look, forget who we are, forget what we look like on paper, what our badge says– we're just human. If you feel that there's a benefit in speaking to us, we really would like you to speak to us as you go through your career. We are not behind closed doors, even though you might not see us constantly, because we're in meeting rooms more so. You know– our desire is to help you, understand you, and if there's anything you see that you think is beneficial, and you think I'm the most appropriate person to speak to– brilliant. Love to hear it. So, it's just– I mean, it's a different way of working in business, and I think, like I said, it stems from starting from scratch. They're just natural characteristics, where you start from a blank sheet of paper. Like, building trust in the people you work with– it has to happen. Because you just don't ever have 100 of these people, and if you can't get the backing, agreement, support mechanism of that small group– we don't have a business. Like, it's gone. So, yeah– those are just lessons you learn, I think, that you carry forward. 01:29:00 **Aleksandra King:** It's been very educational. \[laughter\] That's what I can say, for sure. I've definitely taken– you know, when you say you listen to this podcast and you take things– there's– I am– my mind is full of information, and it does make me look at myself as well, in a different way, and to think– where can I implement more structure? 01:29:19 **Robin Deller:** Yeah. 01:29:19 **Aleksandra King:** And just to stabilise things, and– that plan for growth as well– like, what does that look like? So, I've definitely been inspired, and I've taken loads, and I know that the listeners would have taken loads, and I appreciate your time. 01:29:32 **Robin Deller:** No– but it's been fantastic. So– business is fascinating. If anybody's listening and is considering– you know, providing you take the right steps, and understand what you're letting yourself in for, it's the best thing in the world. So– 01:29:44 **Aleksandra King:** And I'm really happy that Mark gave you as a recommendation, you know. 01:29:48 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, no, it's been brilliant. 01:29:50 **Aleksandra King:** Did you think it's going to be really, really good? 01:29:53 **Robin Deller:** Yeah, that's been great, so– 01:29:55 **Aleksandra King:** Great. Thank you. Loved it. Thank you so much. 01:29:57 **Robin Deller:** Thank– ## Follow Aleksandra - [Instagram](https://instagram.com/king.aleksandra) - [X](https://x.com/aleksandrabking) - [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/aleksandraking) - [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@AleksandraKing) - [Aleksandra's Inner Circle](https://laylo.com/aleksandraking) Business and collaborations: [aleksandraking.com](https://aleksandraking.com) | [aleksandra@aleksandraking.com](mailto:aleksandra@aleksandraking.com) *The views expressed by guests are their own and do not reflect those of Aleksandra, the podcast, or its producers. 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