> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # Gavin Stone: Spy Secrets of Human Behaviour– Reading People, Power & the Animal Instincts of Influence - URL: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/gavin-stone-spy-secrets-of-human-behaviour-reading-people-power-the-animal-instincts-of-influe/ - Published: 2025-11-07T17:15:00.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-24T10:06:20.000Z - Description: Former intelligence officer Gavin Stone decodes body language, lie detection and the animal instincts behind behaviour. - Author: Elliott King - Tags: Gavin Stone, episode, Season 2, Business, #ep-10 **Ever wondered how spies read people in seconds?** Former British intelligence officer and body language expert [Gavin Stone](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/gavin-stone/) joins host and producer [Aleksandra King](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/aleksandra-king/) on The BEYOND Podcast to decode the science of body language, lie detection, and the animal instincts behind behaviour. ## Episode summary Gavin starts where every interrogator starts: with your own tells. Deception detection begins at home, and he explains why the popular body-language mythology, the folded arms, the darting eyes, mostly gets it wrong, before setting out what a real sixty-second read actually looks for. Central to it is baselining: a person's normal shifts between home, work and a courtroom, and reading anyone means reading them against the right baseline. The spycraft translates directly into business. He walks Aleksandra through the spy's guide to sales, selling identity rather than product, and the predator-and-prey dynamics of reading a room while projecting confidence into it. Linguistic red flags get their own chapter: how to analyse a statement for deception, the psychology of lying, and the mistakes amateurs make when they play human lie detector. From influence to command: establishing authority, spotting engineered distractions, and the ICBM breath he teaches for keeping physiology under control when the pressure spikes. A leadership story from his service, the rail gun mission, carries the lesson, and the conversation turns candid on managing toxic behaviour and maintaining a network without being consumed by it. It closes on the paradox of empathy in espionage, why the best deceivers are often the best perceivers, and his animal archetypes of influence: whether you move through the world as a lion, a wolf or a cheetah, and what that means for how you should operate. ## Key takeaways - Deception detection starts with learning your own tells, not other people's. - Most body-language folklore is myth; a real read is built on baselining a person's normal in context. - The spy's guide to sales: sell identity, not product, and read the room like territory. - Statements carry linguistic red flags that betray lies more reliably than gestures. - Influence has animal archetypes: lion, wolf or cheetah, and each has its own way to command a room. ## Key chapters | Chapter | Timestamp | | -------------------------------------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------ | | Deception detection: learning your own tells | [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8) | | Body language myths, and the “sixty-second read” | [04:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=285s) | | The spy's guide to sales: selling identity over product | [10:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=615s) | | Predator versus prey: reading rooms and projecting confidence | [18:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=1080s) | | Linguistic red flags: how to analyse statements for lies | [24:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=1455s) | | The psychology of lying, and common analysis mistakes | [28:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=1700s) | | Establishing authority, spotting distractions, and the “ICBM” breath | [35:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=2120s) | | Leadership lessons: the “rail gun” mission | [44:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=2660s) | | Managing toxic behaviour, and maintaining your network | [48:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=2910s) | | The paradox of empathy in espionage | [53:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=3230s) | | Animal archetypes: are you a lion, a wolf, or a cheetah? | [58:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8&t=3495s) | ## The guest Gavin Stone is a former British intelligence officer and body language expert, and co-founder of the Spy Q intelligence-skills training. His full background is on his guest profile. - [Spy Q](https://www.spyq.co.uk) [Gavin Stone's guest profile](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/gavin-stone/) ## Where to listen - [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ErdFlJ2-g8) - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-with-aleksandra-king/id1786173140) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/0haFQYUTnEn0fpr0LQYlhH) - [YouTube Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=MPSPPL3iQHE-qteJING9jXVVuVUdDa-9qqer7J) - [RSS feed](https://anchor.fm/s/10464b2ac/podcast/rss) ## Related reading Read the companion insights on the site: [Master the Art of Reading People: Ex-Intelligence Officer's Top Cues to Trust and Deception](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/gavin-stone-master-the-art-of-reading-people-ex-intelligence-officers-top-cues-to-trust-and-deception/). And: [Gavin Stone's SPYQ Training: Psychological Skills from the World's Leading Intelligence Agencies](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/features-gavin-stones-spyq-training-psychological-skills-from-the-worlds-leading-intelligence-agencies/). ## Transcript #### Read the full episode transcript ### Cold open *A trailer montage of clips lifted from later in the conversation, ending with the episode proper. These lines recur verbatim further down– that is deliberate, not duplication.* 00:00:00 **Aleksandra King:** Mr Gavin Stone, you are a total communications mind reader. 00:00:07 **Gavin Stone:** I could tell you had something that you were holding back then, from when I said that– 00:00:10 **Aleksandra King:** I'm not going to– I'm not going to– You've written a lot of books– your career– you went from intelligence work to CEO– 00:00:20 **Gavin Stone:** In the intelligence world– I mean, some of my assignments– one of my very, very first assignments, I was sat down and they said to me, find out how the Russians are getting rail gun information out of Korea. Speak to somebody– find somebody– target them deliberately– and then we have to talk them into doing something that's not in their best interest– could get them killed or imprisoned for life– even their family killed or imprisoned– ask them to betray their country, commit treason and steal secret information. The two most important things– and this is where the big difference is– between getting to know people: not just who they are and their personality type, but how they want to be perceived. ### Interview 00:01:00 **Aleksandra King:** Mr Gavin Stone, you are a total communications mind reader– body language expert– is that like a good summary? 00:01:12 **Gavin Stone:** Close, yeah. So it's one of those things where people say to me, oh, so you're a body language expert? I say yeah, and they fold their arms and say, so what am I thinking? 00:01:21 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I'm trying not to do anything– can you see– how do people do that? 00:01:24 **Gavin Stone:** There's no– no need– it's– 00:01:25 **Aleksandra King:** No, no– I'm actually happy for you to read my body language as well, because I also want to improve as a podcaster– we all want to improve– and if there's something that I'm doing that you feel I could improve, please tell me. 00:01:38 **Gavin Stone:** Okay. 00:01:39 **Aleksandra King:** Now I'm scared– I'm scared, I'm scared. But yes– you bring your skills to governments, to boardrooms, to negotiations– you train people, you've written a lot of books– and yeah, you've got knowledge that people can definitely benefit from, because we aren't as self-aware as we'd like to think we are. And it's only when you see yourself on camera– like, as a third party sort of looking– and then you realise, do I really behave like that? Am I really speaking like that? Because you might think something in your mind– you might think, oh, maybe the conversation is going flat or something like that– but then that's not always– what you think in your mind is not always what translates to how the world observes you. 00:02:26 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– funnily enough, part of our training– when we did the bit on deception detection– not only do we have to learn to read other people– and we're learning all about kind of their tells– when we go through, it's, I suppose, kind of like an interview, very much like this, where you set up with somebody, all the cameras are on you, and afterwards they give you the recording and they say, right, watch it back– because you're the only one who knows when you're lying, so therefore you need to learn your own tells. And when you learn your own tells, you can not only suppress them a little when you know you're being deceitful, but at the same time you can also pepper them in at other parts when you're being truthful. 00:03:06 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– 'cause I was going to say, why are you training yourself to be more deceitful then? 00:03:09 **Gavin Stone:** So if you imagine working in the world of intelligence, sometimes you have to work– 00:03:13 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, you have to– for the greater good. 00:03:15 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– so there's loads and loads of reasons that you might be playing a role, for example, and the Ministry of Defence and the intelligence agencies all around– they love role play– and you cannot break cover at any expense– you must be able to kind of continue down that path– and therefore it's important that you learn what your tells are, so that you don't mess up in the middle of something. And it has been done many times. 00:03:39 **Aleksandra King:** Oh wow– I literally never thought about it from this angle. I don't consider myself a very good liar, so– if there's something I don't want to say, I just– I know that if I lie about it, it's going to be terrible, so I avoid saying it. That's how I– I'm aware enough to know that– so I think, don't even go there. The problem is if someone asks me directly– 00:04:03 **Gavin Stone:** Yep– a lot of people tend to do that silent break away from everything, but that can be– in itself– can be a tell. And I've seen– if you go– imagine maybe it's a house share, and you've got four or five people living in the house, and somebody comes running downstairs from the bathroom and they go, who used all my shampoo? And three of the four people in the room say it wasn't me, it wasn't me, it wasn't me– but one of them sits there like that– then you know– you know it's them. And it sounds obvious when it's put in a scenario like that, but that comes from the fight, freeze or flight response that so many people have– and of course, the natural instinct is to kind of freeze– say nothing, keep still, don't look, don't make eye contact, and hopefully the threat goes away. 00:04:46 **Aleksandra King:** Well, you think these things– so we're going to– let's– let's bust some of these. So what is the biggest body language myth out there? 00:04:54 **Gavin Stone:** That one thing equals one thought. So for example, people turn around and say, I could tell you were lying because you had your arms folded– well, that's complete and utter rubbish. There's no one thing that gives away a thought or an action or anything else. What you're looking for is clusters. So if you're looking for somebody– you're not sure if they're being deceitful– and they give you three or more clusters of body language tells– so if they pull their feet in, while they fold their arms, while they look down, their blink rate goes up, their voice tone changes, you get clunky speech– there's so many different flags you can look for. And I generally say– any less than three, then discount it entirely; three or more, that's when you need to start asking questions. 00:05:38 **Aleksandra King:** But what if you don't know someone– you don't know what their emotional base is– so it's very hard to read– I suppose you're getting to know them? 00:05:44 **Gavin Stone:** Yes, yeah– you have to baseline each and every person first, and that's the part– that's the bit that's misunderstood more than anything. Because even though body language in itself is a language, it's also something that you have to learn– each and every time, with each person. And establishing a baseline is all well and good, but you have to also understand that that baseline can also deviate too. Somebody's normal behaviour when you baseline them in their home is going to be different to that in the court of law– it's going to be different to when they're drinking with their friends– it's going to be different at work– it's going to be different at their parents'– and they'll have different baselines for all these different scenarios and situations. So you have to baseline them according to the environment and the situation, and then look for something. 00:06:28 **Aleksandra King:** So to be a really good body language expert, you've got to be highly analytical. 00:06:33 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– and it's exhausting as well. So it's something that you can kind of learn to be more aware of, but at the same time, sometimes you just want to switch it off and just say, that's it– I just want to walk around with the blinkers on at the moment and take no notice. 00:06:52 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– yeah– because to pick these things up– 00:06:54 **Gavin Stone:** You're trying not to pick them up. 00:06:57 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– so if you only had 60 seconds to teach someone one trick to read people better, what would that be? 00:07:06 **Gavin Stone:** For reading people, I would probably say blink rate. This is one that really goes underrated. 00:07:13 **Aleksandra King:** I know– your eyes never– 00:07:16 **Gavin Stone:** So what it does– people's blink rate changes dependent upon stress– and that's the amount of blinks per minute. So if you can imagine somebody who's watching a film, or reading a book, or concentrating, or listening intently– their blink rate is very, very low– maybe one, maybe even two a minute. If somebody's in a high stress situation, their blink rate is going to be a lot more– and that can be even up to 90 blinks per minute. So what you do– just count it over six seconds, multiply it by 10. 00:07:48 **Aleksandra King:** You're not counting the blink rate– no– that's why I think– you feel overwhelmed. 00:07:53 **Gavin Stone:** But yeah– blink rate would be a good one. 00:07:54 **Aleksandra King:** There's a lot in the eyes. 00:07:56 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– and breath location as well– just whether somebody's chest breathing or belly breathing tells you a lot. 00:08:01 **Aleksandra King:** So that– chest breathing or belly breathing? 00:08:03 **Gavin Stone:** So chest breathing is nerves– more– people are kind of– and it doesn't necessarily mean nerves– it could be excitement, it could be a number of things– but generally, people are more relaxed when they're belly breathing, in comparison to when they're chest breathing. 00:08:16 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– okay. So in terms of your career– you went from intelligence work to CEOs– is it– interesting– so what's the difference– from spies to boardrooms– like, how was that? 00:08:32 **Gavin Stone:** Well– they– like anybody in charge of anything– they want answers. So it's something like– when I did my work, it was very simply a case of, this is what we want to find out– go and do it. And then you get to CEOs, and they want answers of– why is my company working– why should– why am I not making more– why is my competitor doing things– or quicker to market than me– whatever the questions may be. And what I'll do is I'll go in and I'll look at the overall situation– I'll be able to kind of say, all right, this is how we can amend this, or this is a way we can find the overall– 00:09:05 **Aleksandra King:** Sorry– situation– do you mean with them, or how they are in their– how they interact with people, like– 00:09:10 **Gavin Stone:** It could be any number of things– so it would all depend entirely on what the questions are the CEO wants the answer to, to start. So it might be, why is my team not engaging with me– or why am I asking for one thing and getting another– on the other hand, it might be, why do my competitors come out with the same product as me six months before I do. And so– entirely dependent upon what they want is where I will then go in and kind of get the answers for them. 00:09:37 **Aleksandra King:** Gosh– so you go into these companies, and in a very intelligence, full-on way, you analyse that in great detail– and you'll take different people into the room and you'll ask them questions– and, I mean, is it like a proper interrogation? I don't know– like– how– 00:09:53 **Gavin Stone:** Interrogation is a tough word to use– a lot of people see that as, like, kind of waterboarding people, and that kind– it's not anything like that. It's not waterboarding anyone. Most of the time it's just a conversation– and I can generally spend within 20, 30 minutes with somebody, being able to tell enough about them to know more about who they are and how they want to be perceived. 00:10:14 **Aleksandra King:** Gosh– I'm scared– I'm so scared– I'm scared and excited at the same time. No, but that's fascinating– I would love to– it's really a cool thing, I think. It's a scary thing, but it's a thrilling thing, I think, to find out how people see you– and even if there's negative things, it's cool to know them, because you can work on them– and then it's also cool to know the positive things, which might help you build your confidence– so either way you win. 00:10:45 **Gavin Stone:** Oh yeah, I think so– and the more you get to know people, the better it is all around. Even with these companies– when I explain to them– when it comes to even things like marketing, for example– 00:10:53 **Aleksandra King:** Yes. 00:10:53 **Gavin Stone:** And they'll say, oh, we know our customer– and I'll say, no you don't. You know what worked in your last marketing campaign– but just because you know what worked doesn't mean to say you know how or why it worked. Could you repeat that with a completely different product, or a completely different company, and have the same results? And they go, well– I don't know. And I say, well, in that case you don't know your customer– you don't know why it worked. All you know is that something worked– and was it just a case of split testing so many things until eventually you hit the jackpot? So getting to know people is the most important thing– and once you strip back all the fluff that's out there and get to know– there's two most important things– and this is where the big difference is between getting to know people: not just who they are and their personality type, but how they want to be perceived. 00:11:40 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, stop it– that's profound. 00:11:42 **Gavin Stone:** It really is something that is profound. What they're projecting and who they really are are generally millions of miles away from each other. 00:11:51 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– now we– this– this is so cool. Okay– so when you're negotiating, what nonverbal cues give away something– that someone's overselling– like, you know they're trying– try hard– 00:12:07 **Gavin Stone:** So– I don't know– I've changed my mind about three times with this one, because it'll all depend on the stakes, I suppose– and I kind of went down the road of the typical cheesy grinning car salesman, who's very kind of touching and tapping you on the shoulders and that kind of thing– 00:12:22 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:12:23 **Gavin Stone:** And that's– that's the one that, for me– trying too hard, sort of– yeah. They don't need to be verbally pushy, but they just– you know that 10 minutes after you've left the room, they've forgotten your name– because they're now doing exactly the same thing with the next customer. And that's where– if you actually get to know your customer properly, on a completely different level, you will lose that naturally and kind of have a completely different result. 00:12:51 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– but are they, in the car sales room, trying to get– get to know– 00:12:56 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– it's a tricky one, isn't it? Yeah– and of course, car salesmen– again, it is a numbers game– where they've been doing it for so many years, and they're doing what they've always known– because they've been taught and told by other people that worked, or this is how you sell something. A lot of the time it's not the case. Again, it's getting to know people. And if you've got somebody, for example, who projects themselves as a strength and power type personality, and you're trying to sell to them using empathy– you're not going to sell. You need to say, look– this 4x4 is going to make you seen as being strong and powerful and the big man on the road– and then you're going to kind of give him what he needs– the dopamine rush he needs to go towards the decision you want him to make. At the same time– if you've got somebody who is an acceptance person, and they want to be accepted into society more, then you need to go down the road of saying, look– once you buy this car, you're going to be in the owner's club, and you're going to be– you're one of the family of these car kind of people– and so you're selling them the dream, but you're selling to their identity– and that's where it all changes. 00:14:10 **Aleksandra King:** You know, my first job that I ever did was actually as a student– and I had to sell alcohol in an alcohol store– and a liquor store– and I had to sell Southern Comfort. And it was– I don't know if you know Southern Comfort– 00:14:28 **Gavin Stone:** You do– I've had plenty of it. 00:14:30 **Aleksandra King:** Do you like it? 00:14:31 **Gavin Stone:** I do, yeah. 00:14:31 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I don't– I really don't like it– oh, this tastes terrible– and I'm a terrible liar. So I thought, what am I going to do now? But yeah– you kind of– you see the people, and then you sort of think, well, how can I– break– first of all, I've got a problem with myself now, because I'm a terrible– I can't tell you it's delicious when it's not. And then– so you have to work through that– and then also you've got to– with sales– and that's when I thought, I actually like the challenge of trying to find out about this person, and maybe step into their life and offer them something. So if they're, like– you know, in South Africa– braai– you know, having a braai– it's a barbecue– and they say, okay– well– you can– and then I also said to the guy– that– please– help me– give me something to make this thing– can we not put an umbrella, put some juice and crushed ice– help me, help me. And then you make this little thing– you make a product out of it– that actually now it tastes all right– it's actually quite nice– and you can have this with a barbecue– and you sell them the vision. And there is this thing– if you have– if you're able to go into someone's mind, and then show them– you know, go in there and almost, like, have that experience with them of sharing this drink, and you're having it together– and then that translates to a sale– that's an incredible experience all round, I think. 00:15:49 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– and it works well, with– because the majority of people are visual people. So if you can get them to kind of see what you want them to see– and in their mind they will create it how they want it to be– 00:15:59 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:15:59 **Gavin Stone:** So whether it's a fire pit or a barbecue, the details are irrelevant– they will edit it in their mind. And once you've got them down that route, as it were, the rest is just about kind of the final push of how many bottles do you want. But there's a way you could take that even further. 00:16:16 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:16:17 **Gavin Stone:** And this is where– if you look at certain products in comparison to others, some products sell a label and other products sell an identity. So for example– if you're buying a Harley-Davidson, you then identify yourself as a Harley-Davidson rider. People have Harley-Davidson patches and tattoos and all sorts of things– they buy the posters and the merchandise– but you don't see very many people having a Peugeot moped tattoo– because it's a product. You get exactly the same thing with so many things– especially with things like phones– I'm an Android user, or I'm an Apple user– because that's who they are– it's who they see themselves as– it's part of their identity now, not just a product. Everything else in the world is a product, but certain very clever companies are selling the identity. And of course– if you've got your bourbon drinker, and you're trying to sell them Southern Comfort, you don't have to lie– you can just turn around and say something along the lines of, look– I'm not a bourbon expert, but I can clearly tell you're somebody who knows quality when you see it– would you– would you take a sample of this? And you should be able to know instantly that this is a next level quality bourbon– and give them a sample. Of course– you play on their identity and say, if you're the expert I perceive you as being, then obviously you'll know this is– and you've built the story– they're not going to back out of that and say, I'm not an expert– especially when you've kind of led them down the path of building up their ego– you must know– that they're the expert– then you better have that right– which helps if you're an intelligent– if they're– if they're in a liquor store looking for whiskies, then you kind of– half the battle's done for you. So it's just about giving them that final nudge towards the product you want them to have. 00:18:08 **Aleksandra King:** I was going to say, how can a leader learn to quickly read a room– but I'm not going to say leader– I'm just going to say, how can a person learn to read a room quickly? 00:18:18 **Gavin Stone:** Anyone can do it. In a boardroom scenario, or any other scenario like that– ask a very difficult question and watch where everyone's eyes go. It's as simple as that. So if you've got– you're all sitting around a board meeting table, and you ask the most awkward question you can– the people will look in the room for the person they want comfort from. They will look for the one who's in charge– and the person in charge is not necessarily the person who is highest in rank, or the CEO– but that's the person that they will go to, to say, what's the answer to this. People do exactly the same things with jokes and humour. If ever you want to know if somebody's interested in you– tell a funny joke– and people, when they laugh, they always look at the person they like the most before they actually start laughing– or while they're laughing. 00:19:07 **Aleksandra King:** Oh my gosh– I'm going to be analysing now. 00:19:10 **Gavin Stone:** So they do that because it's kind of– it's almost like a social consent, to say– how much do we laugh at this? Do you find this funny? Because if you don't, I'm going to stop laughing– but if you do, I can laugh more. And it's kind of a– if the person you like is laughing quite hard, it's a social licence then to say, oh, I can laugh really hard at this as well– and it looks like something– a bonding moment– where we're both kind of laughing together. So when I say "like", this doesn't necessarily need to be sexual attraction– it can be, you know, just– \[unclear\] the most– and kind of have that– have that shared moment. 00:19:47 **Aleksandra King:** I think, in general, if you like someone, you look at them– and you avoid eye contact if you don't. 00:19:51 **Gavin Stone:** Right– it depends on the situation. So– again, I don't want to go down the route too much of sexual attraction, but that can vary so much– especially if it's somebody– and this is by no means sexist– but if you've got a female– it's just for an example– who's having a bad hair day, and their makeup's not quite how they want it to be, and maybe they've got a spot– whatever– and the person that they really like walks into the room– it's very much the ostrich effect of, if I can't see him, he can't see me. So they might avoid contact and carry on working– so just out of self-consciousness. Again– there are so many variations of situations that I don't like to put a one-size-fits-all when it comes to body language. 00:20:36 **Aleksandra King:** It's all– because I have always thought– but I mean, not– not relationship stuff, really– like, in a sexual sense– not that– but, like, in general– people– you know, just two people– they work together– I think if there is more eye contact, they're more– they like each other more– just as– as people– and if they're less– not– especially if it's prolonged– that's what I found. 00:20:56 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– if– if it's prolonged, then even more so. 00:21:00 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– okay. So what's one body language mistake that instantly weakens your credibility– your authority? 00:21:10 **Gavin Stone:** Quick movement. So if you– if you think of the animal world– and if you look at the predators– like a big tiger that kind of paces through the jungle– very kind of, you know, steady, controlled movements– and if you then compare that to that of prey– instead of the predatory– and they're very– looking around– and very sharp, neurotic movements– 00:21:33 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:21:34 **Gavin Stone:** And so, of course, the head and eyes are all over the place, darting around– and that kind of– 00:21:38 **Aleksandra King:** Actually true. 00:21:39 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– so if you want to come across as somebody who's kind of weak, then those very quick, rapid, quick-fire, sharp, snappy movements. 00:21:47 **Aleksandra King:** What happens if you're a cheetah? 00:21:49 **Gavin Stone:** If you're a cheetah, then you sit there with your paws crossed, and you say– I already know I'm the fastest– I don't need to run. 00:21:54 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– but when you do run– when you do run– you run– then you give it all you've got. 00:21:58 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah. 00:21:58 **Aleksandra King:** I love looking to the animal kingdom for cues on behaviour– and I kind of see– I sometimes see us– you know– well, we are animals– but I really do see it– it's almost like– I've grown up in South Africa, so I think of the jungle a lot– you know– and people having their territories– like a lion– and then you've got the lionesses, and they're guarding– and if another lion dares go in and take those resources, and there's the big argument– you know– and then there's rank– and all that– it's– it's just everyone protective of their little slice of whatever it is they've got. Like– I see a corporate work environment as exactly the same. 00:22:30 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– mirror– totally the same, isn't it? If– if you want to know– if you want to get really, really good at body language, then the two things you should watch are animals and children. 00:22:40 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:22:40 **Gavin Stone:** Animals are great because they– you know that– you can see when an animal is relaxed or not, purely by how they hold themselves. We've got this great big vulnerable area, and when we are feeling vulnerable, we'll cover it up– we'll hold our arms, we'll pull a cushion in, or we'll pull something in the way– 00:23:00 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:23:00 **Gavin Stone:** We'll shrink down– we'll do our feet– 00:23:02 **Aleksandra King:** I saw you sitting like this– so you must be very comfortable. Are you usually– 00:23:05 **Gavin Stone:** A big– bigger giveaway is actually the feet. So if your feet are, like, kind of right out there, you're really relaxed– tucked right under the chair– 00:23:13 **Aleksandra King:** Well, I'm doing mine like a \[unclear\]. 00:23:15 **Gavin Stone:** Oh– okay– yeah– well, similar kind of thing– so– very confident. It's still something that– you know– the kind of foetal position of curling up is generally– getting smaller– 00:23:26 **Aleksandra King:** And like this– yeah. 00:23:27 **Gavin Stone:** And if somebody's more confident, then they will be wider and taking up space– and you know that this manspreading thing has been doing the– the rounds now. 00:23:36 **Aleksandra King:** I found myself doing– I went– I had a guest here just before, who we won't say it now– but yes– and there was something that the guest said, and it made– it really affected me– like, I was really sad– and, like, totally, like, taken– shocked– and I just found myself– just– I went like this– and then I was like– oh– 00:23:54 **Gavin Stone:** You got your head in front of your face– in the body– 00:23:57 **Aleksandra King:** But yeah– I felt it– just– you know– 00:23:58 **Gavin Stone:** That shows the level of empathy that you have– so you– you're not just listening to what's being said– you're actually processing it as if you're almost living it. 00:24:08 **Aleksandra King:** But it's very distracting when you're processing things too much– it's very distracting– I got to stick to the script and not get taken off track. Okay– so when someone– we spoke about this a little bit– someone's not saying anything at all– you ask them a question– they're silent– how do you interpret that? 00:24:26 **Gavin Stone:** Then again– depending on the situation. If– if it is a scenario like we talked about with a shampoo bottle, and somebody's silent– then it stands a chance it's probably them not– used– use your shampoo. There are other– other times where people will say, I don't know– and therefore I'm not going to say anything– or, even more so, I do know– and that's my reason for keeping quiet– because I don't want to say it was Bob– you– or whoever– shampoo– that can happen. 00:24:55 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– 30-minute credibility screen– let's– let's go through it. How do you separate signal from noise? 00:25:08 **Gavin Stone:** Substance is going to be the main thing here– with– listen to how much the person is actually telling you– with regards to– are you getting information that is, you know, credible information– or are you just getting a lot of fluff, with information peppered in? And that's something where– depending on– on what– what you want from the conversation– and we– we actually did some training on this for– for a while– about– when it was buying time– and there's a friend of mine from MI6– he could talk to you for three or four hours and not say a word– is absolutely brilliant. You know– not– when I say not say a word– obvious– but there'll just be nothing of any sense– and you– you'll be there for ages, listening with intent, thinking there must be something coming– there's nothing happening– you're not getting anywhere. 00:25:58 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– very– okay– okay. So in terms of what people say– linguistic red flags– are there some words– some– some things people say– that's automatically like– yeah– 00:26:10 **Gavin Stone:** A lot of them. So I– I was taught statement analysis by the creator of it– which is absolutely fantastic– and– and it– I'll give you the– the kind of the basics of it– but a lot of the time, what you want to know– the information is either in the statement or missing from the statement– and that's the way you need to ask yourself what that person means. So, for example– you could say to somebody– you know– you come into the room and you say, hey– my wallet's gone missing– have you had it? And they might turn around and reply with something like, I haven't even seen your wallet– or, I don't know where you keep your wallet. Okay– that's not a no. They haven't denied taking your wallet. Just because they don't know where you keep it doesn't mean to say they haven't come across it– just because they don't know where you normally keep it doesn't mean they haven't taken it. They've not answered the question– in a way that satisfies the– it pacifies the person asking– but it doesn't actually answer the question with a denial. And this is where you– you need to kind of be a bit more astute with– with what you're hearing, and say– okay– did that answer actually answer my question, or did it just pacify me? Is it just an answer? Because you would say– I've not touched it– I've not– literally not been anywhere near it– haven't seen– been– so– and– and that just grows in so many different ways. 00:27:25 **Aleksandra King:** You know– I love crime documentaries and things– and I watch it– and it's funny that– with a– with a criminal thing– they do slip around in that way when they're trying to lie and deny it– and eventually it comes out that they've done this. But– for behaviour– I'm fascinated by behaviour and communications– and they do– they do this– what you were saying. 00:27:45 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– if you look at a lot of police statements– the majority of them– over 90% of police statements– have a pattern when it comes to deception. And if somebody's telling the truth, it'll be about 25% pre-incident, 50% of the incident itself, and about 25% post-incident. Now, if somebody's being deceptive, it'll be about 90% pre-incident, about 5% with the incident, 5% wrap. 00:28:13 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– I'm going to watch the crime things again– and I'm going to– 00:28:16 **Gavin Stone:** Reason for that– inherently, we don't want to lie. People don't like lying– they know– you know– 00:28:21 **Aleksandra King:** So– it takes a lot of energy. 00:28:23 **Gavin Stone:** Exactly– oh, it certainly does– you know– and of course– you know– the cortisol produced is unbelievable. Liars tend to put it right off until the very– as long as they possibly can– then, when they have to actually tell the lie, they'll quickly get it out and then move on– and wrap it up– and that's it– and job done. 00:28:38 **Aleksandra King:** That's why– I do think– you know– with– I've never understood liars– you know– like– okay– everyone lies– is what the private investigator guy– that– Mike \[unclear\]– the private investigator– he said to me– I questioned him– I was like, come on– he goes, no– everyone lies. I was like– okay– humble– get back into my– but I– you know– like– even growing up and things– like– if someone didn't want to be in a relationship, why couldn't they just tell the person, I don't want to be in a relationship? I know that it's hard– but lying is harder– it takes much more effort– no? 00:29:10 **Gavin Stone:** And again– depending on every situation– you have got– let's just take, for example, an average couple. I'm going to say the man cheats– because that's what women love to hear– sorry– the man cheats. The man cheats– and instead of, like, you know, kind of– tell her– he doesn't tell her– she suspects something– but maybe he's cheated and thought, I've made a massive mistake– I don't want to split up– I realise what I've done, and I want to stay with my other half. So therefore– you know– he's not going to tell the– he's not going to risk telling the truth– you know– he realises he's made a mistake– and– \[unclear\]– you know– on other occasions, it could just be down to the fact that they don't want to hurt the other person's feelings so much that they'd rather put themselves through misery than actually the confrontation. 00:29:56 **Aleksandra King:** And I– again– I didn't think about it like that– 'cause I just think– well– I would think– would you not feel– yeah– better– and then– would be more of an equal relationship, and a fair relationship? Because that's also cheating– because then you're cheating that person into being with you– so that's even worse– because they're not with you knowing who you really are, or what you've done. And if they still accept you, despite you doing all that– well, then that's great– they've accepted you– and you can live free and be free of your– you know– I don't know– I just– it's– yeah– 00:30:30 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– I suppose it all depends on the person– and their upbringing– and kind of– you know– what's worked for them, or what hasn't worked for them in the past. And this is because people are creatures of habits and patterns– and if we've done certain things two or three times– and– in the past, it's– it's ended up in resulting in negativity for us– we will try everything to avoid that in any future relationships. 00:30:53 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I think– yeah. Okay– where do people most often over-interpret cues, and then make false assumptions? 00:31:03 **Gavin Stone:** Ah– when they're looking for them. And this is– this is something that I can speak from experience with– a particular case I had with– industrial espionage. And I was called in over money that was getting– going missing from the company accounts– and they did a lot of preliminary interviews that were recorded, and the recordings were sent to me. And the very first interviews were just a very basic– who are you– where do you work– you know– did you have access to these accounts– blah, blah, blah– and that was it– and he was just– okay. Then the second lot of recordings were a little bit more in-depth– but not– you know– not kind of interrogation level– and the recordings were sent to me to analyse– and I sat through hours and hours and hours– and there was one particular one where I saw a lady, and I thought– hm– she's doing something– and I don't think she was doing it on the first video. So I went back to the first video– and she wasn't– in the second video, every time she spoke, she'd do that– and I thought– normally, kind of covering the mouth and that kind of thing is usually a way of saying, I don't want to– the truth coming out. So– so it was something that– to me– I thought, oh, that's interesting– she wasn't doing it the first time– she was doing it the second time. So I thought, okay– and I called them up, and I said, please have this lady in a room– I'm going to come in and have a chat to her– and I just want to know– you know. And I watched the video again and again and again– I convinced myself that there was other tells that were there– 00:32:30 **Aleksandra King:** You convince yourself– 00:32:31 **Gavin Stone:** You know what I'm saying to you about clusters– you know– this is a thing– that one tell alone was pretty strong– but when I started looking for the other little bits, I started seeing them. And– so I went in– and I realised the mistake I'd made– because the first video was taken in the wintertime– the second video was taken earlier on in the year, coming towards spring– and by the time I got to the third video, we were almost in summer. And I walked in, and the lady looked at me– she said– I really should– pollen count really high– and she was rubbing her nose– and I realised exactly what I'd done. 00:33:04 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– ah– and that's something that I hadn't– you don't think she was doing that 'cause she thought– she's called in for it? 00:33:11 **Gavin Stone:** No– definitely not– no– I think you would know– anyway– nose was bright red, like Rudolph– and I give myself a serious talking-to that day. I mean, it was a long, long time ago– and I was still very green– and I realised– you know– that if– 00:33:28 **Aleksandra King:** Oh yeah– definitely. 00:33:28 **Gavin Stone:** You know– if you look for it, you'll find it. 00:33:30 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– you know those lie detector machine things– do they work? 00:33:34 **Gavin Stone:** Not in the way people think they do. They– they detect stress– not deception. 00:33:40 **Aleksandra King:** I would be permanently failing, though– even when I'm just, like, baseline– you know– 00:33:46 **Gavin Stone:** It's– the– it basically measures spikes in stress levels– and of course, because lying is stressful– and it has the same kind of– physiological reactions on the body– so therefore, if the stress levels go up at a particular question, it causes the– 00:34:05 **Aleksandra King:** But that's not fair for people that are highly strung and stressed out, like, all the time– and even the concept of a lie detector– you think– someone's putting the thing– that's so stressful– 00:34:16 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– and of course– fail everything. So the thing to remember here is– you're not trying to beat the machine– you're– you know– or even– you're not even, like, kind of competing with the machine, as it were– it's the person operating the machine that you have to be more conscious of– not the machine. 00:34:31 **Aleksandra King:** What are they doing? 00:34:32 **Gavin Stone:** They're going to be watching you pre- and post-interview, and during the interview. And– so there's a friend of mine who worked on Guantanamo Bay, post-9/11– and she used to get more information from the detainees walking to the interrogation room, and walking from the interrogation room, than she ever did in the interrogation room. 00:34:51 **Aleksandra King:** Wow– because– I want to know– I want to know what she sees. 00:34:54 **Gavin Stone:** Well– it was a side-by-side walk– which was very unofficial– very relaxed– very casual– and they just felt more comfortable– so therefore they felt– you know– anything I'm saying here is– record– you know– and of course– that whole level of comfort that she provided on the way to the interrogation room– and then, of course, you get in there– start the whole process off– and then– nervous– total change. 00:35:15 **Aleksandra King:** Interesting. Okay– so what's a telltale sign of a lie– like, really solid– are you going to say blink rate, maybe? 00:35:24 **Gavin Stone:** Blink rate– blink rate will be– because it's probably one of the most accurate ones– because of the stress levels in a lie. But– there is no definitive kind of Pinocchio effect, where you can say, they did this, so therefore they lied. 00:35:39 **Aleksandra King:** But look into the– yeah– certain– was it left– 00:35:42 **Gavin Stone:** Oh yeah– so that– accessing– yeah– I mean– again– that varies with different people. So– again– not everybody goes to the same place– and this is where it went so wrong for the Pentagon. But you have to– again– ask that person questions, to be able to establish– where do they go to recall memories– where do they go to create memories. So if I was going to say anything at all– look for clusters, and look for change. What's– you know– once you've baselined a person, and you found out what's normal for them– then, if something happens that's not normal, you can say– okay– why? Doesn't necessarily mean it's a lie– but it does mean something's different– and then you can start asking why. 00:36:23 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– this is getting– yeah– makes me want to ask a whole bunch of people questions to find out if they're lying. Okay– so– calm authority– if you want to communicate that– it's the not-scattering vibe– you don't want to be the meerkat– the mouse that's running into the hole– 00:36:42 **Gavin Stone:** Exactly– no fast movements. 00:36:44 **Aleksandra King:** What else? 00:36:49 **Gavin Stone:** Just a level of authority that is going to allow you to take charge of the room– by doing everything a little bit slower– whether it's talking slower, breathing slower, walking slower– and that can be in any scenario. If you are the person in the room that is kind of the most comfortable, then people are going to look at you with a different level of kind of– why is it that everybody else is coming here and grabbing a seat, trying to be, you know, kind of neat and tidy and prim and proper– and this person is coming here, and they are so relaxed, it's almost like they're at home? And if you can be the most comfortable person in the room, then you've got an advantage over pretty much every– 00:37:30 **Aleksandra King:** I understand the scatty thing– and I understand the– you know– the slow down– because when you get scared, it's all really forced, and you're scattering about. However– there's also just– well– like– you can see with me– I'm very comfortable now– I'm completely relaxed– but I'm animated, and I'm much more expressive– and I'm– I'm naturally– I was born a million miles an hour– like, I can't help it– I was born completely hyperactive. So I find it very difficult to– my baseline is not slow and calm and relaxed– my baseline is always– far– you know– yeah– and I don't even know how to describe it. 00:38:05 **Gavin Stone:** You're comfortable. So if you see where you've got your posture– where you're sitting right now– from, like, kind of– you know– below the shoulders, down to your hips– you know– thighs area– that's not really moving. You can– so you can still be animated with your hands, but your body's not moving. If, on the other hand, you're sitting there, like, going– well– what I think is– and fidgeting like this– then that would be a bit more concern. So moving kind of your arms and your legs– not so bad– but overall– if you're– you're comfortable, you can still be animated and still be kind of sat permanently planted in the seat, as it were– without looking like you're unfaithful. 00:38:39 **Aleksandra King:** That's happening– yeah– that's an interesting one. That's an interesting one. So what's the one habit– a little micro habit– that instantly destroys your– well– another person's perception of trust in you– like– oh– are you a trustworthy person– something that they're doing? 00:38:58 **Gavin Stone:** Yes– I would again go back to that rapid movements– I know we have spoken about it– but it does kind of– because people are more likely to trust people who are in control– who kind of can be themselves, and are comfortable. That whole prey movement– you know– like I say– you visualise a tiger paw being very kind of, you know, relaxed as they walk through the jungle– because they know there's not very many things that are going to come and attack them– that makes people feel huge levels of comfort. You know– they feel comfortable around you, because they know you're in control. So when somebody is fidgeting– and they're very sharp, rapid movements, and whatever else– it makes people feel uneasy as well– you know– because of– if you want to call it a vibe, you can– you know– there's lots of different ways of saying it– but they give off that vibe of being kind of– oh– we're being watched– somebody looking at us– very dodgy– kind of, you know, backstreet kind of dealer kind of way– you want to– want to run away– and constantly looking at their surroundings– and that's what makes people– you know– if you're constantly– 00:40:04 **Aleksandra King:** I love that– I love the scatty animal thing– it actually makes complete, complete sense. So when you know– watch TV– you're watching Newsnight– whatever it is that you– Love Island– I don't know what you watch– The Apprentice– do you find yourself analysing people– as to– politicians, let's say– I think you are– 00:40:22 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– so I have done it for different shows and news channels and that kind of thing– mainly over in the States, more so than– 00:40:27 **Aleksandra King:** You have– so you're asked to do that? 00:40:29 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– and I think the one– the one time– I was actually on with two other people– one was a body language and– communication and nonverbal cues expert– the other one was a– an FBI behavioural profiler– and we were looking at a particular case– and out of the three of us on this particular show, there was only myself that spotted that the couple that were in the store at the time– nobody else had realised what they were doing. And when I pulled it up, I said– does anybody notice what they're doing in the store? And everybody was like– no– what's going on? I said– they're shoplifting. I– like– oh– and I said– but they did buy a block of cheese and a jar of coffee– I said– yeah– I said– they did– I said– but if you watch– when they walked in, they had four empty flat bags– and when they walked out, they got these bags absolutely filled. Yes– they paid for the coffee and the cheese– that was just a decoy– you know– and they walked out– and they were like– oh– okay– we didn't notice that one. 00:41:29 **Aleksandra King:** You're watching the details. 00:41:30 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah. 00:41:31 **Aleksandra King:** So– you know– sometimes you have people that don't come across as very– their body language isn't very good– like– you know– they just– they let themselves down– but what they say is very credible, and it makes sense– and you just sort of feel like– come on– you know– or the other way around– you know– they might have great body language, but then what they're saying is– isn't great– so how do you coach people like that? I do watch– you know– I watch the politicians when they interact with each other– there's a bit of a power game sometimes– who shakes whose hand from which angle– the way that they sit– they try to command presence in the room– sometimes there's competition with who's the VIP in the room– and it's– it's also very– it makes one uncomfortable to see when there's a difficult conversation between the two politicians– and you can see one rising to the pressure– and then the voice goes up, and the scatty mouse vibes start happening– and you think– oh– keep it together– come on– you know– you can kind of see it slipping. It's quite– 00:42:30 **Gavin Stone:** And– and this is where you know– when– in these situations– you need to do– in the intelligence– is called ICBM– which the military guys will know as intercontinental ballistic missile– but it's actually instant calm breath method. 00:42:42 **Aleksandra King:** Instant calm breath– yeah– 00:42:43 **Gavin Stone:** You do, like, a double– in– hold it– and let it go– and that just kind of resets you momentarily. There's a couple of different ways of doing it– but that's– that's one of the– 00:42:53 **Aleksandra King:** No– come on– let's learn it– when you're under pressure– you're feeling it– yeah– 00:42:56 **Gavin Stone:** So– depending on what the situation is– you can– you can do the box breathing– or the– it's– I think it's in for seven, hold for five, out for eight– so it's a seven-five-eight. So you can go– in– hold– 00:43:20 **Aleksandra King:** That's a long one. 00:43:21 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– and that's it. 00:43:22 **Aleksandra King:** And that quick one that you did– just like– that's like a double– a double– 00:43:25 **Gavin Stone:** Double– yeah– like a really deep– yeah– two quick snatches of breath in. You can do that through the mouth. 00:43:30 **Aleksandra King:** I like that– I like that– 'cause it immediately snaps you out of that silly– you know– going down that rabbit hole– literally– the rabbit hole behaviour. I had a podcast earlier with a lady who's a public speaking expert– really– done it for so many years– and she also spoke about the importance of that whole thing– breathing– you know– you're about to go red, or you're about to feel really uncomfortable– moment– and she just– also the breathing– and to always do that– even if you're comfortable– just to prepare your brain– your lungs– your voice box– all that– have to do the humming– you name it– 00:44:04 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah. 00:44:05 **Aleksandra King:** But yeah– but these people under pressure, and in serious position– and anyone under– you know– you're in a meeting, and someone asks you a question you don't really know– and it's like– how can you just quickly reset yourself? So you're saying a double breath in– yeah– 00:44:15 **Gavin Stone:** Double– double intake of breath– very sharp– mouth or nose– but it has to be, like– you know– one, and then another– like– almost instant. 00:44:22 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I love that– 'cause that's a quick, actionable thing that you can do. So what intelligence gathering skills translate best to– you know– leadership– to sales? Because you've got this amazing knowledge– but not everyone's– you know– yeah– criminal– 00:44:40 **Gavin Stone:** So that's a double answer to that question– in the sense of– leadership and sales, I segregate a lot– because they are different– yeah– you know– kind of two different worlds. So with leadership– in the sense of– in the intelligence world– I mean– some of my assignments– one of my very, very first assignments– I was sat down, and they said to me– find out how the Russians are getting rail gun information out of Korea. That was it– that was everything. And I was like– okay– what are you supposed to do? And– and I thought– okay– not much to go on. I didn't get any Aston Martins, or exploding watches, or X-ray specs– none of the– none of the toys– I was just– you know– instead, I got– what are you still doing here? so I was like– okay, then. and it took me two or three days to do it– to– complete the assignment. but that's the level of kind of– free hand– your hands– it's very different to the military, where you're told when to be, where to be, how to be– you know– you give specific– you got no guidance– nothing. You– you have training– and they expect you to rely on what you've learned, to be able to just go out, do your job, and come back. So that in itself sets up a leadership level of– right– I have to do this for myself– and this is where– you know your destination– and however you get there is down to you. so you have to be your own leader. And when you're your own leader, you can bring other people in that can help you– and they– if you bring them on board with the same level of enthusiasm– they want to get to the destination just as much as you do– if you're with the right team, and you encourage them in the right way. 00:46:14 **Aleksandra King:** What training do you get to do that? It's like– go off and do– I mean– 00:46:18 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– it was good– and I suppose– what I had to do– I had to reverse engineer it– 'cause I thought– okay– well– if I was going to get rail gun intelligence out of Korea, how would I do it? So I thought– well– the first thing I'd do is I'd find myself a rail gun expert– and unlike McDonald's workers, there's actually very few– so there's a very short list of people. Then you look at the rail gun experts that have operated in Korea– then you look at what they've done– and the works they've done– and whatever else– and I trawled through a lot of work– and papers– and publications– and that kind of thing– until eventually I found one that was published with a Russian co-author– and I like– ah– now I might be on to something. Then I checked him out– turns out he got ties to the Russian embassy– and that was it just kind of all come together. 00:47:00 **Aleksandra King:** That's why you're called an intelligence officer– because you need to be intelligent. 00:47:05 **Gavin Stone:** And– and that was it– once it was all confirmed– that was it– I went back– two or three days– and I got the answer– did most of it without leaving my living room– and got the assignment completed. So that was why they kept employing me, I think. 00:47:18 **Aleksandra King:** That's why you've got all the books– and people love them– and you're on this podcast– and you're– yeah– they're genius– very, very intelligent. But yes– thinking on your feet– thinking by yourself– not having anyone tell you what to do– you come up with a plan, and step by step execute– it's very– 00:47:33 **Gavin Stone:** And that's– I mean– leadership is– it goes into the whole people skills– when it comes to things like sales as well– this is where the two kind of do overlap– because leadership is something that– if you're just telling people what to do, then you're not a leader. If they don't literally share the same dream as you, and want to get there at the same time, then you're nothing other than a boss– you know– you're just telling people– telling them what to do. 00:47:58 **Aleksandra King:** And they don't like that either– do they? 00:48:00 **Gavin Stone:** No– if you're in a situation where you've got a dream, or a goal, or an assignment that you want to achieve– and whatever your destination is– whatever your goal is– the team that are around you are all equally wanting to get there– all excited when they find out that we've taken another step– two steps– forward– or disappointed when something's knocked us back a little bit– and if they're as involved and invested into reaching the goal as what you are, then you're doing something right as a leader. 00:48:24 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, wow– it seems obvious– but it's– yeah– it's not the case in a lot of companies– but you do want to bring people with you– yeah– that's why I think comms in general– communication– if you're speaking to people, and you're checking in along the way– you've got more of– you stand more of a chance of– all that stuff– yeah– 00:48:42 **Gavin Stone:** I've just had a talk about that, actually, with the NHS. We– we were looking at, like, kind of– insider threats and that kind of thing– and I said– the problem is– and it's a growing kind of epidemic, really, within the workforce now– is what I've called the five-to-five on Friday syndrome. And that's when it's five to five on Friday– and people are– they've switched off– they're ready for the weekend– and whatever happens in the office– whether the phone rings– whether the printer explodes– whatever– they're just not bothered– it's a Monday morning problem. And that five-to-five on Friday syndrome is spread into most days of the week– you know– it's– it's going through lunch breaks– and it's nearly home time– and– 00:49:23 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– it's horrible– yeah– 00:49:25 **Gavin Stone:** And– and that kind of– negativity can spread through an office and a workplace like wildfire– and that's when– you know– if you kill that kind of– like I say– I'll use the word vibe again– if you kill that vibe– then– 00:49:39 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– totally is a vibe– cause a lot of problems. Okay– another problem– hostile people– hostile personalities– and they everywhere. How do you deal with hostile, toxic people? Like– it's so difficult to avoid– 00:49:53 **Gavin Stone:** A lot of people go down the route of wanting– 00:49:55 **Aleksandra King:** Sometimes you can't– yeah– 00:49:57 **Gavin Stone:** And– yeah– I mean– there will always be hostile people in everything you do– and of course– you know– if you go down the confrontational route of– you know– somebody says or does something– that– you know– they're argumentative with you– a lot of people try to– want to win the argument– and they– to them– they see that as a win– yeah– instead– what you need to do is look and say– okay– what– why is this person in that predicament– in that situation– being– you know– this way in the first place? What's going on in their life? And once you turn around and say– right– I think it's Winston Churchill, actually, said– I don't like that man– I must get to know him better. And that's something that– once you start with somebody you don't like– you generally find that– when you scratch the surface, and get a little bit deeper, and find out what they're really like– it's not always exactly the same as what they portray– and that's where you– that's where you got a better way of dealing with hostile people– and this is more long-term than just the other– 00:50:56 **Aleksandra King:** I think you're right– you know– I think you're so right. And I think that when we say that someone is hostile, or toxic, we're almost putting that label so that we don't have to deal with them– and I go– however– you're absolutely correct– that– yeah– if you probably did go deeper, you'd find more reasons. It's an excuse we give ourselves– to say– I don't want to talk– you know– too much like effort– you know– too much effort is the– is the thing– and that's the truth. 00:51:23 **Gavin Stone:** So– and that tells you more about yourself as a person– because then you need to ask yourself– okay– so why aren't– why am I making the effort? Everybody can be a good Christian to other good Christians– but can they be a good Christian– or– but– you know– whatever– good person– good whatever– to the person who's maybe a little bit nasty– or a little bit toxic– or a little bit– you know– boisterous– or whatever– you know– you shouldn't be able to– if you're picking and choosing the people you're being nice to– then does that really make you a nice person? 00:51:53 **Aleksandra King:** Mm– although– I had a behavioural psychologist– Oxford professor– come on, and he was talking about Dunbar– Professor Dunbar– and he was saying how– we have to– our actual networks that we maintain, and have quality relationships with, are very, very small– and there's zones– there's, like, a zone one, and then a zone two– and it's a huge investment to these people that we have in our closest network– and normally, if one comes in, another one has to go out– usually. So maybe there's also an element of that– where you think– I only have capacity for that. 00:52:30 **Gavin Stone:** Sometimes, yes– but there are also ways– because, as humans, we are generally lazy– and we will look at what's in our interest– you know– what does this person bring to the table for me? And once that particular person is not bringing as much to the table– and it doesn't necessarily have to be anything tangible– it could just be the fact that when you're around them, they make you feel good– 00:52:53 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:52:54 **Gavin Stone:** So if that person stops that, they might disappear into the background a little bit. And the best advice I was ever given by somebody– when it come to keeping– managing larger networks of people– 00:53:07 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:53:07 **Gavin Stone:** Is every week, scroll to the bottom of your contacts list– whether it's WhatsApp, or your text messages, or whatever– and whoever's at the bottom, just send them a text saying something along the lines of– hey– haven't spoken to you in a while– just reaching out to see how things are. No ask– don't want anything from you– just want to say hi. 00:53:23 **Aleksandra King:** Wow. 00:53:24 **Gavin Stone:** And that happens– you can do that with two or three people at the most– maximum of, like, five– but never any more than that– otherwise you're just setting yourself up for more difficulty in managing more numbers. But generally– one to two people– do that– and you'll be surprised how many people come back to you and go– hey– yeah– nice to hear from you. And if you do that every time, that bottom number then gets to the top– you just keep that going– and you kind of– you can then widen your circle. 00:53:54 **Aleksandra King:** Do you know what I find about you as well– you're an intelligence officer– and you know all these things about people– that– the lies– you know how to– I mean– you could manipulate people if you want to– but I can see you don't– I mean– if you had to have a goal– for the greater good– you definitely know how to do that– but what I'm getting from you is that you're very– you like people– you're open to people– despite knowing all that stuff– it's like– surely that would have made you– 00:54:19 **Gavin Stone:** You would think so– especially with some of the people I've met– and I've met some really, really horrible people. But at the same time– to do my job– there's a trope in Hollywood where– you know– assets and informants and that kind of thing are treated dreadfully– and that's actually not the case. We– if we want– if you can imagine what we do for a living– we go over to a foreign country– speak to somebody– find somebody– target them deliberately– and then we have to talk them into doing something that's not in their best interest– could get them killed or imprisoned for life– even their family killed or imprisoned– ask them to betray their country, commit treason and steal secret information. So– you know– that's a big ask. 00:55:04 **Aleksandra King:** That's a big ask. 00:55:05 **Gavin Stone:** So if you're doing that for somebody– you can't do that and just say– look– I'll buy you a beer if you will. You have to really get to know that person– you have to really get to know their triggers– their levers– their personality– and you can't get to that level of intimacy with a person without a huge level of empathy towards them. You need a real, genuine relationship– it can't be done on a fake relationship. And once you've got that relationship– and it is real– even though they don't even know your real name– the bond is real– they will help you out and get what you want. So– but the caveat is– you must always deliver– you know. 00:55:45 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I was going to ask you– does that feel– does that feel manipulative– dare I say that word– but does it– because you've got a goal– 00:55:51 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– it does– to a degree– but the thing is– once you found out what motivates that person– and it could be any number of things– their child might need health care that they can't get or afford– it might just purely be greed and money– you know– it could be any number of things– but you must deliver. Because once you've kind of made that promise– you know– whether it's a British passport and citizenship, or whatever it is– you know– that relationship is completely ruined if you– if you keep dangling a carrot but don't actually ever let them get it. 00:56:22 **Aleksandra King:** You don't ever let them get it– okay. You know– with– learning about behaviour– do you think– I mean– do you think most people are good at detecting behaviour patterns in others? Do you think that they're aware– most– majority– or not really? 00:56:42 **Gavin Stone:** The majority of people are– but without knowing– it's more of a subconscious level. 00:56:47 **Aleksandra King:** Right– so they are, actually. 00:56:48 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– it's one of those things where– if you ask people– who have the answer to something– in hindsight, will turn around and say– I knew something was wrong– I knew something was off– I knew– they'll always say afterwards– I couldn't quite tell what it was, but I knew there was something wrong about that person– or wrong about what he said– or, I knew they were lying. So they do know– even if they don't know how they know. The majority of the time, they get that gut feeling that says something's not right. So they might not know what it is– or exactly what they're looking for– but they do know they have seen it. 00:57:20 **Aleksandra King:** But also– then– it might be even another layer– because you might not want to be talking about something– or something happened and made you uncomfortable– then you know that they might know– and they detect– and then you know that they know– and then they know that you know that they know– and then– spirals– yeah. Although– I don't know– that's why I'm asking– because I sometimes do wonder how aware people– but you say instinctively– yeah– 00:57:47 **Gavin Stone:** You– if somebody's very nervous to talk to somebody about a particular topic– and– you know– they need to approach that person– sometimes they can– you know– kind of give off that feeling themselves– and– you know– when I was saying to you about– you know– if you look for something, you'll find it– and therefore they can convince themselves sometimes that there is something there– when there wasn't– you know– because of that– what they are projecting themselves. 00:58:12 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– so– a lot of takeaways from this. I think that the thing that– such an– well– there's two very easy things for me to take away from this– the scattiness of the mouse– and the prey– you know– animals– the meerkats– all of those guys– the way that they behave– it is pretty obvious. And then the other one is the breathing thing– to help. But also– I'll just take the whole animal kingdom thing– I'm going to go back to– I find this a fascinating thing– but you know how– like– you were saying– like– the lions– and they walk– and they've got the paws– and they're all like this– and the cheetah just doesn't have to prove itself– but when it wants to run, it will just– yeah– and it's run. But then– don't you think– like– that sometimes humans– this is going to sound really weird– I'm going to– just– just bear with me– but I almost think– like– you know– in nature, you have, like, symbiotic relationships– where you might have a tree– and then it's got a plant that grows on it– and then that plant would otherwise never be able to get the light– so it grows with a tree– and if it's symbiotic, it doesn't hurt the tree– the tree is happy. You know– you have those little fish that swim with sharks– and they clean their teeth– and that kind of symbiotic relation. And then you've got the parasitic relationships– and then the ones that– you know– viruses– and those– but then they might get too clever– and then they land up killing their– they're too aggressive– and they land up destroying their source. And then you have the chameleons– you know– the ones that– then they change– and they can be whatever you want them to be. I just think there's so many of– like– our personalities– our behaviour– and I sometimes look– and I know this is going to sound crazy– so I think– you're a chameleon– you're a parrot– you're a cheetah– you know– and I sort of– can I say what I think I am? 00:59:55 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– go– 00:59:56 **Aleksandra King:** For a while– yeah– and I kind of think– like– I'm the lioness– you know– I sometimes think of myself like that– because then– I like– my little– I'm protective– yeah– fiercely protective– but I also like to hunt– you know– the lion will defend its territory– but I like to hunt– so I sort of think of myself like that– but– yeah– we put silly things in it– but what do you think? 01:00:17 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– so I think you're right. I mean– if you look at the fact that the lioness– primarily– above all and anything else– it's about looking after the cubs– so that's the first– 01:00:27 **Aleksandra King:** Totally. 01:00:28 **Gavin Stone:** One– that goes with something– but– I could tell you had something that you were holding back then– from when I said that– 01:00:35 **Aleksandra King:** I'm not going to– I'm not going to– 01:00:38 **Gavin Stone:** Come on– come on– come on– so let's– let's– let's share. 01:00:42 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:00:42 **Gavin Stone:** So when you spoke– just– and– you know– when I said to you about– like– kind of– I'm not really– sometimes there's something that happens– and it does stand out– so when I said about protecting the cubs– and you went– yeah– and that kind of compressed lip– for a minute– for a moment– that is generally when somebody agrees with you, but they're holding something back– so it might be truthful– 01:01:03 **Aleksandra King:** You are totally right– you are totally right. Because I'll tell you something– I walked off The Apprentice– publicly– in front of– and I'm aware that this is a platform– a stage– and I walked off. I didn't like the whole process– you know– it wasn't for me– and I wasn't able to speak to my family in the way that I wanted to– and I am not going to do things for my career at the expense of my children– that's just not going to work– you know. And I came out publicly saying this– and it was a big– like– it's a very difficult thing to get over– you know– saying something like this in public– and then you've judged– and whatever. But also– at the same time– I am like that– that's just how I work– and I am a mommy cub– and I protect my cubbings– and now that they're growing up and everything– it changes things for me– yeah. That's– so– you know– you've unpacked quite a– especially that it was so public– yeah– a thing in my life that was a sore point– like– it wasn't– you know– it wasn't an easy thing. 01:02:15 **Gavin Stone:** Sorry– I didn't mean to– didn't mean to drag– 01:02:17 **Aleksandra King:** My– no– I'm glad you did– because it just– you do– it's correct– you know. 01:02:22 **Gavin Stone:** Sometimes– like I say– I don't usually watch people and assess them– but sometimes– you know– I will spot something– I go– oh– hang on– that– you know– that was a little indication– and– you know– I saw that. But yeah– the whole kind of looking after the cubs is– you know– like a primary objective for a lioness– but then the hunting side of it as well is also something that you've got– that is providing for the cubs, as well as yourself– keeping yourself sustained– and then you've also got the fact that it's the defence as well. So– but what I can see is that there is also a pack– and there are other people in the pack– that you have a very select few kind of friends or associates– that– you know– 01:03:03 **Aleksandra King:** There is a pack– and I'm fiercely protective of the pack– and there's also– the hunt is so much fun– you know– 01:03:10 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– yeah– and I think that's why you like this– I think you like finding guests– different guests– and exciting guests– for– you know– kind of– who can I have on– who's going to really kind of get my– 01:03:20 **Aleksandra King:** Belief– yes– you know– but I've got a team that do the outreach thing– and I direct them very carefully about what I want– and whatever– and when I originally got this team, they would do a LinkedIn outreach– it was very, very corporate– they've never done podcasting in this way, with these kind of guests– and it was very serious– very this– and I had to take them from doing that– and train them– and I said– listen– you are going hunting– that is your– you need to bring home the guests that are like this– yeah– that is the goal– you know. And when I sort of put it into the head– so it's always– like– I suppose you become what you think you are. What animal would you be, then? 01:04:03 **Gavin Stone:** Me? I have an affinity with wolves, for some reason– I love wolves– I was born in Wolves. 01:04:09 **Aleksandra King:** Majestic, wonderful creatures. 01:04:10 **Gavin Stone:** Oh– that was probably where it all originated– 'cause the local football team being Wolves– and that kind of thing– but I've always just had this real kind of fascination with wolves– and whether it's the kind of lone wolf kind of persona– or what– I don't know– but yeah– it's just– it's always been something that– I've had this in my mind for many, many years– the lion might be the king of the jungle– but the lion will still be trained in the circus– and the wolf won't. 01:04:36 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– 01:04:37 **Gavin Stone:** So– and that's why I kind of like the wolf. 01:04:40 **Aleksandra King:** And on that note– thank you so much– this has been– like– mind– I can't even describe– like a– mind expansion exercise– you know– of self-awareness– of– it's just interesting– I find all of these topics– and I'm going to be reading your books. 01:04:59 **Gavin Stone:** Oh– thank you. Well– hopefully your followers find it beneficial– and– yeah– 01:05:02 **Aleksandra King:** How could they not? 01:05:03 **Gavin Stone:** Well– if they want to know more about– if you don't mind me doing a quick plug– 01:05:07 **Aleksandra King:** That'd be great– go for it– plug! 01:05:08 **Gavin Stone:** I'm actually doing– for the first time ever– yeah– I'm doing spy– intelligence officer– training, from all the world's leading agencies. 01:05:17 **Aleksandra King:** Because– what does that mean? What is that? 01:05:19 **Gavin Stone:** So it's the psychological training given to intelligence officers– with everything from mental resilience right up to strategic thinking. So all the different kind of– and I hate to use the– term– thinking outside the box– but that kind of thinking outside the box– the whole– not just mental resilience– but the kind of– the way an intelligence officer is trained to think differently to most other people. It's happening down in Dorset– in an army barracks that we've had for a couple of days– we got the tickets on sale– 01:05:48 **Aleksandra King:** In an army barracks– literally– that's cool– that's really nice. 01:05:52 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– we've got some brilliant guest speakers coming in– and this training has never been offered to the public before– I don't know if it's ever going to be offered again– it depends on the response. We've got some brilliant exhibitors coming down and showing some of the– 01:06:03 **Aleksandra King:** How many days is it? How does it– only over two days? 01:06:05 **Gavin Stone:** It's two full days– but– 27th and 28th of October. 01:06:09 **Aleksandra King:** 27th and 28th of October. 01:06:11 **Gavin Stone:** Yeah– and this has never been done before– so I'm really hoping that it goes well– and– yeah– we'll see whether the people like it or not. On the other hand– it might be down to the Home Office– that might come down and say– you're not allowed to do that again. 01:06:23 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– as I say– how much do you want everyone to learn! But that's a fascinating thing– it sounds really good– I'm going to look into it. 01:06:28 **Gavin Stone:** Oh– brilliant– thank you. Well– the website is www.spyq.co.uk. 01:06:34 **Aleksandra King:** Brilliant– thank you– thank you so much. 01:06:36 **Gavin Stone:** Thank you. ## Follow Aleksandra - [Instagram](https://instagram.com/king.aleksandra) - [X](https://x.com/aleksandrabking) - [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/aleksandraking) - [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@AleksandraKing) - [Aleksandra's Inner Circle](https://laylo.com/aleksandraking) Business and collaborations: [aleksandraking.com](https://aleksandraking.com) | [aleksandra@aleksandraking.com](mailto:aleksandra@aleksandraking.com) *The views expressed by guests are their own and do not reflect those of Aleksandra, the podcast, or its producers. This podcast is for entertainment only.*