> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # The “Don't Talk About Money” Culture That Holds You Back - URL: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/the-dont-talk-about-money-culture-that-holds-you-back/ - Published: 2025-12-31T17:15:00.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-24T10:06:26.000Z - Description: Private equity leader Jamie Roberts demystifies investment: why he values “bonkers” founders over perfect spreadsheets, and how the 1% get backed. - Author: Elliott King - Tags: Jamie Roberts, episode, Season 2, Business, Entrepreneurship, #ep-17 **Why does British culture treat money as the one thing you must never talk about?** Private equity leader [Jamie Roberts](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/jamie-roberts/) of YFM Equity Partners joins host and producer [Aleksandra King](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/aleksandra-king/) on The BEYOND Podcast to demystify the world of investment, and to explain why he values “bonkers” founders over perfect spreadsheets. ![Jamie Roberts in a navy quarter-zip and host Aleksandra King in conversation on the BEYOND set, seated on yellow sofas either side of a round wooden table](https://storage.ghost.io/c/5e/74/5e74ba0c-c249-4586-8ce5-03deb56fdf93/content/images/2026/08/Jamie-Roberts-Podcast-2.png) ## Episode summary Jamie opens the black box of professional investing: how investors actually select businesses, and why, across his twelve years at YFM, the firm has consistently backed only around one per cent of the businesses it sees. The filter, he explains, is people over products. Asked what the founders with real potential share, his answer is that they are all a bit bonkers, and he means it as the highest compliment: the irrational conviction to build something is precisely what a spreadsheet cannot show. As he puts it, the firm does not run businesses, it backs people to run their businesses. From there the conversation turns to the mechanics: quantifying risk, the mathematical reality of scaling, and what the numbers genuinely have to prove before conviction in the founder takes over. Jamie makes the case for the British success story, taking stock of the UK funding ecosystem, where it serves founders well, where it falls short of its American counterpart, and what the don't-talk-about-money culture costs ambitious British businesses along the way. The second half digs into what happens after the cheque clears: organisational design, how a company preserves its culture through rapid growth, and how founders should define success across ambition, stability and the traits that survive scale. Turning down ninety-nine in every hundred pitches has taught him how to deliver constructive feedback with honesty, and he explains why getting feedback on everybody, including himself, is part of how the firm works. It closes on the personal operating system: marginal gains applied to business, the WhatsApp group he and his friends named Toxic Optimism and the psychology behind the joke, and the power of leadership vulnerability and radical feedback, the habits that keep an investor honest about his own performance, not just his portfolio's. > “We don't run businesses, we back people to run their businesses.”– *Jamie Roberts* ![Jamie Roberts speaking at the microphone during his BEYOND interview, hands clasped](https://storage.ghost.io/c/5e/74/5e74ba0c-c249-4586-8ce5-03deb56fdf93/content/images/2026/08/Jamie-Roberts-Podcast.png) ## Key takeaways - Professional investors back around one per cent of the businesses they see, and the filter is people over products. - The best founders are all a bit bonkers: irrational conviction is the one thing a perfect spreadsheet cannot show. - Britain's don't-talk-about-money culture holds founders back, and the UK funding ecosystem still lags its potential. - Preserving culture through growth is an organisational design problem, and it starts long before the growth arrives. - Marginal gains, leadership vulnerability and radical feedback keep an investor honest about his own performance, not just his portfolio's. ## Key chapters | Chapter | Timestamp | | ------------------------------------------------------------ | -------------------------------------------------------------- | | Inside the 1%: how professional investors select businesses | [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo) | | People over products: the reality of backing founders | [09:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo&t=571s) | | Quantifying risk, and the mathematical reality of scaling | [18:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo&t=1126s) | | The British success story, and the UK funding ecosystem | [27:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo&t=1651s) | | Organisational design, and preserving culture through growth | [37:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo&t=2236s) | | Defining success: ambition, stability, and founder traits | [46:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo&t=2790s) | | Marginal gains, and the psychology of toxic optimism | [56:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo&t=3406s) | | Leadership vulnerability, and the power of radical feedback | [1:06:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo&t=4006s) | ## The guest Jamie Roberts is a private equity leader at YFM Equity Partners, where he has spent twelve years backing founders across the UK. His full background is on his guest profile. [Jamie Roberts's guest profile](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/jamie-roberts/) ## Where to listen - [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T20mjiEQGZo) - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-with-aleksandra-king/id1786173140) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/0haFQYUTnEn0fpr0LQYlhH) - [YouTube Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=MPSPPL3iQHE-qteJING9jXVVuVUdDa-9qqer7J) - [RSS feed](https://anchor.fm/s/10464b2ac/podcast/rss) ## Related reading Read the companion insights on the site: [Jamie Roberts: A Masterclass in Securing Private Equity Investment](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/jamie-roberts-a-masterclass-in-securing-private-equity-investment/). And: [YFM Equity Partners: The Reality of Scaling UK Businesses](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/features-yfm-equity-partners-the-reality-of-scaling-uk-businesses-with-jamie-roberts/). ## Transcript #### Read the full episode transcript ### Cold open *Trailer montage of clips lifted from later in the episode, plus voiceover. These lines legitimately appear again below.* 00:00:00 **Jamie Roberts:** What does success look like for you? Why are you doing this? 00:00:02 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:00:03 **Jamie Roberts:** And very few say, cos I want to make money. 00:00:13 **Aleksandra King:** Why do some people make money, while others play it safe and miss out? Jamie Roberts has spent a decade betting on people– deciding who's worth backing. So if you are better– like, who's on that conveyor belt to constantly churn out that better way of working? 00:00:35 **Jamie Roberts:** You've got to be careful about numbers not dictating our world. 00:00:37 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I was going to– that's my next question for you. 00:00:39 **\[Speaker?\]:** I do like nice stuff. 00:00:41 **Aleksandra King:** It's probably the most important training course you can– you can receive. He'll show you how investors really think– when to risk it, when to walk– and most importantly, how to back yourself. 00:00:55 **Jamie Roberts:** And I promise you, the number is always either 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100– it's always very round– around ballpark numbers. 00:01:05 **Aleksandra King:** 80? Yeah, yeah. 00:01:07 **Jamie Roberts:** People who have stuff going on outside of work are significantly more stable. 00:01:11 **Aleksandra King:** And I'm really flattered, honoured and delighted that you've seen this as a valuable session as well– to come here, to give your time. 00:01:19 **Jamie Roberts:** It's definitely been valuable for me. 00:01:20 **Aleksandra King:** I know people are going to definitely find it interesting– so yeah, I think– ### Episode 00:01:30 **Aleksandra King:** I was thinking of how to introduce you, and I think the best way for people to understand what you do is to go back to The Apprentice– 00:01:38 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. 00:01:38 **Aleksandra King:** –when all those cannon fodder– I'm going to call them cannon fodder– candidates, all naive and optimistic, were trying to get an investment– 00:01:48 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. 00:01:48 **Aleksandra King:** –for their business. And the whole show, for all those seasons, is about them coming in– and they present their business plans, and then they get put through a series of tasks, and then he whittles out, you know, who's good, who isn't, every week– and then you're left at the end with the one that gets £250,000 for their business– 50% of the business goes to Lord Sugar– 50% investment– and it's the \[unclear: "is 15"?\]– let's talk about it– but basically, it's a fight for that investment. And the hope is, of course, that– okay– by associating yourself then with Lord Sugar, you get all these other benefits– which turned out not always to be the case, because sometimes when they hear, I'm Lord Sugar's business partner, it's like– yeah– and– yeah– I guess– but that's a different story. But basically– you're the Lord Sugar– okay– times 50-plus businesses– you do this all the time. 00:02:41 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:02:42 **Aleksandra King:** But basically, you decide who gets the money– that is your role– okay– am I correct, in layman's terms? Okay– so how would you describe yourself, you know, in more sort of the polished way? 00:02:52 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– so I'm the Managing Partner and Chairman of Investment Committee for YFM Equity Partners. So we see about 1,500 opportunities a year, for businesses and entrepreneurs looking for funding– 00:03:06 **Aleksandra King:** Gosh. 00:03:06 **Jamie Roberts:** –and we invest in about 1% of them. 00:03:10 **Aleksandra King:** Stop. 00:03:10 **Jamie Roberts:** We do. So it's about 1%, and it's been 1%– I've been at YFM for 12 years, and the person who trained me to do what I do– Paul, David– they– and– two Davids, one Paul– they always used to say to me, we only ever convert one in a hundred– and the number's been one in a hundred since sort of private investing began in the UK. And I was pretty sceptical– and actually, I look back over the 12 years I've been at YFM, and it is one in 100– it's still one in 100. 00:03:35 **Aleksandra King:** That's so mean. 00:03:36 **Jamie Roberts:** So– it's really interesting, because there's a– and I'm sure we'll talk about this– but it's not– so as a fund manager, we make our money by investing in businesses. So we are absolutely– if I could change that 1% to 2%, YFM would be twice as big– need fewer people– because we spend so much time looking at businesses and working with businesses that we then decide not to invest in. So we actively want to do more. The reason we don't do more is either because the business isn't quite ready for the investment, it's not quite what we do, or we just can't agree commercial terms to invest in the business. 00:04:14 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– okay. So the selection criteria for entrepreneurs– I imagine they feel massively frustrated by people like me, because they sit here and think– you only invest in one in 100– that's mean– the words you used– it's– why don't you invest in more? 00:04:27 **Jamie Roberts:** And it's because we're investing other people's money. So we go out and raise funds from our investors, and we tell them, this is our process for making investments and working with the companies and delivering value. So we have to go through this journey to decide which ones we think are going to work, not work– which are right for us– which fall within our criteria. 00:04:44 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So just to be clear– it looks like your default is basically no. Someone walks through the door very excited– it's no. 00:04:52 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– so– it's a great– that– I can see that– we– the way one of my colleagues talks about it is– our job is finding– 99%– 99% of the time we're finding reasons to politely say, it's not you, it's us– politely declining. Because you work really hard to get people to come and talk about their businesses, and you don't want to be rude, so you try and give constructive feedback– but ultimately you are saying, it's not for us– and nobody really wants to hear that. The other 1% of the time, we're saying, we desperately want to invest in your business– please choose us, please choose us, please choose us– because there's lots of people like us. 00:05:25 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– but that's extremely rare, and basically it hardly ever happens– and the default is no. So how do you make that decision? Within seconds sometimes? I mean– how quickly? 00:05:36 **Jamie Roberts:** So we do– we do quite a lot of work on conscious bias, unconscious bias. We try and avoid making a snap judgement when somebody walks in the room– when somebody starts talking to us. You can quite easily– if somebody feels like us, that's really easy to warm to them, isn't it? We all naturally like people who look, sound and feel like us. But the reality is, people who look, sound and feel like me as an investor probably aren't the right people to be running a business– because they're running a trading business, an operating business– I'm running an investment business. So we do work quite hard with the teams to get past that first– try not to make a decision in the first half an hour of the meeting– work really hard– we've got to– there's a process you go through, which is just– tell us your story– like– get to the end of the story before you start making the decision in your head. I think the reality is, sometimes people walk in the room and you will go– actually, I just can't– not when they first walk in, but within a few minutes you can sit there and go– actually, this is going to feel quite difficult for us. 00:06:41 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So if you are going to take someone's– someone's business seriously, what's the sort of first sign, indication, that they will give you to make you think– which is obviously the one out of 100? 00:06:54 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– so– for me, I like to be quite prepared going into a meeting. So whilst– it sounds like we see a lot– so we see 1,500 opportunities a year– I've got 65 people that work within YFM– so if you say 38 weeks of the year– 36 weeks of the year– 46 weeks of the year– that everybody works 40 hours a week– the 65 people– they're not looking at a huge volume of opportunities. It's a big number as a firm, but individually it's not. So we quite like people who share the information in advance, so we can read it, think about it– that's a tick for us, because we want to go to the meeting informed. 00:07:31 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– because they're proud of what they're doing. 00:07:34 **Jamie Roberts:** We scratch our heads a bit with people who say, let me talk to you about the business on the phone– cool, always happy to do that– and then, I'll get in the room and I'll present it to you. And then I'm a bit like– why wouldn't you send us just a bit more information in advance, so I could do some proper thinking? So that's one thing– that's probably a personal bugbear, where I sort of think– well, I'm now going to turn up to that meeting and I'm not going to be able to be that well informed. It's a bit of a blind meeting. 00:07:59 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– of course. I think any– yeah– preparation– professionally, you want to be as prepared as you can be, so that you know what you're doing– you've got the information beforehand– and then the meeting as well is more meaningful, because you're talking about critical details, and you know– a deeper level– instead of this surfacy, sort of almost fluffy, gimmicky kind– 00:08:16 **Jamie Roberts:** And never forget– we're– so we're selling to the company as well. So whilst we only invest in one in 100 that we see, we have to start work– like– as soon as something comes through the door, we're working quite hard to win it, even if we're going to decide we don't want to do it. Because if you don't– if you're not positive and upbeat at the beginning, it's quite hard for us to win them back. So we go into everything absolutely with the mindset of, we want to win this opportunity– because if we don't– if we sit there asking lots of difficult questions and being all aloof, like people think investors are– they're not going to warm to us as people, they're not going to want to take our money. 00:08:52 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. So you go in there thinking– motivated– to win this opportunity, but at the same time you know that only one in a hundred are worth it, and you know all the reasons why you wouldn't invest– and you've got them all too well in your mind– and you're trying not to be too negative. 00:09:06 **Jamie Roberts:** So– so it's a really interesting thing, because one in a hundred work for us– it doesn't mean the 99 others won't work for somebody else– but it's just the bit of the journey that we do with our two main strategies– it just means that quite a lot of them don't fit with that. And back to the– how we present when we meet people the first time– if we look at the TV shows– people say to me– oh, what do you do? And when I sort of say what I do– I mean, I tend to sort of say– oh, I work for a bank or something– because it's just easier than trying to explain it all. 00:09:40 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:09:41 **Jamie Roberts:** And then if you go a bit deeper and you explain it, people will automatically say– oh, like Dragons' Den– or like The Apprentice. And I sort of go– yeah– yeah– kind of. But if we behaved in that way to companies coming into us, we wouldn't exist. 00:09:56 **Aleksandra King:** No. 00:09:56 **Jamie Roberts:** Because they bring– they bring something different– you've been through the process, right– they bring something different to what we bring. They bring a profile and– stuff. Whereas we're saying– actually, we're professional investors– we want to work with you on the journey– that on average is sort of five to seven years– so we're going on a long journey with them. If we behaved in an obtuse way to them at the beginning, why would they want to– why would they choose us? 00:10:19 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– true. I think Lord Sugar's really lucky, isn't he? He can get away with his– yeah. 00:10:25 **Jamie Roberts:** He– they have platforms, they're very successful, they're very good. But yeah– I think the– you don't just go on those shows for the investment, do– like– people go– you've done it– people go on those shows because there's– it's a big platform, there's profile– I get to push my product. 00:10:40 **Aleksandra King:** Do you think Dragons' Den really is an 8-minute advert on primetime BBC television? 00:10:46 **Jamie Roberts:** I mean, it's an awesome– it's an awesome opportunity for entrepreneurs to go and talk about their business. 00:10:49 **Aleksandra King:** It is– you definitely get the platform to showcase yourself, your skill– with– you know– many have continued with their businesses, and many have gone very much into a media direction and forgotten completely about that business plan that they once put on that table. 00:11:03 **Jamie Roberts:** But it's great for us. So if– I think– when I was growing up– so I'm 43– so I grew up in– I was born in 1982– you had Luke Johnson, of Pizza Express fame, did a little bit on TV about going into businesses and, like, walking the floor. There was a chap before him, whose name I can't remember. Then we had Wall Street, the film, in the 80s– but that was like the end of sort of business on TV. So for now– whilst I'd sooner people didn't think about us like Dragons' Den– we're not quite behaviourally like that– or like The Apprentice– it's still better– people think business and entrepreneurship is much cooler today than it was when I was growing up– and that is because of the TV shows. Now we celebrate more entrepreneurialism and business success than we ever have before. 00:11:51 **Aleksandra King:** We do– we do. But– like– with The Apprentice, you'll get many that are very upbeat about their businesses, very confident, you know– and then you can see that as enthusiasm, but you can also see it as arrogance, very often– and like– no, my business is– you know– how much of that do you see, and how do you sort of draw the distinction between genuine confidence– that you think, yeah, that's a person with backing, and they know– they really believe– versus fluff? 00:12:17 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– it's hard, isn't it? If you think– starting a business– and you're doing this with the podcast, right– to start something from fresh is really hard. So you do have to have an element of self-belief, because lots of people will knock you down. So when I meet founders, or people running businesses, my starting point is– this person is probably a bit different to most people, because they've taken so much risk to do what they're doing. So you sort of have to forgive them for sometimes behaving– 00:12:46 **Aleksandra King:** Forgive them– I love it. 00:12:48 **Jamie Roberts:** But you can't judge them. I think sometimes you go– you do get founders who can come across– if you met them in the pub, and they talked about their business in that way in the pub, I'd probably sort of turn the other way and talk to somebody else. But actually, I do want people to come in and be really proud of what they've done, and be quite– this is going to look great. The ones who come in and tell us that they've developed the next Google, Facebook, you know, whatever– is great– but the ch– you know– that's such an infin– like– really small chance that they've done that– I struggle with that. But the people who come in and say– look, this is what I've got, this is what I've done, this is how I've done it, this is why it's going to be awesome over the next 5 years– I love that. 00:13:30 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. I suppose as a business owner as well, you've got to be careful who you're speaking to. So if you're speaking to, you know, your mum-in-law, or the next one– but you're not going to go– this is why my business is going to really do well in five years– and start going into numbers– because they'll be like, you're crazy, basically. So– yeah– I suppose– but to an investor, you really have to go into that. So when you look at personality, drive– and then you look at hard numbers– and then you look at the actual concept, whether that concept has legs– but you were saying you have to understand the concept, because there might be different industries that maybe you're not that familiar with, and sectors. But let's say, out of those three– so sort of idea– whether it's feasible– numbers– and person– what do you think would take the most weight? 00:14:18 **Jamie Roberts:** People. 00:14:18 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– right. 00:14:20 **Jamie Roberts:** It's always, always, always people. So– I would back– I would say we've done– so YFM has been investing for 43 years– been around for a long time– and if we look back, we've done really well with great people, with not-great products and difficult markets. If you don't have great people– or if you have people that just can't execute– it doesn't matter how great the product is, or how great the market is– it's going to be really hard if they can't execute. So we don't run businesses– we back people to run their businesses. So– we don't have– nobody at YFM is an operator. We sit on boards, we're strategic, we help with strategic direction– but we're not in there every day running the business. So we've got to back them to run their business and deliver the product. 00:15:06 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– that– that's super interesting. You know, as a marketer– you know– I will see a lot of businesses, and I have to understand how they work, how they run– I have to understand where they get their sales– 00:15:19 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. 00:15:19 **Aleksandra King:** –what's their main source– and– across various industries. And you can sort of– you start to get an idea quite quickly whether some of their plans– you know– they want to launch something– you know– you kind of have an idea– and then– but you do get to see businesses from that financial angle. And sometimes the business owner as well– they might be– this is maybe for younger businesses, for newer businesses– they will come to you with an idea– but when it's too much, like– oh, look at this idea– can you basically make all of it happen?– and then there's not this sort of strategic analysis, intelligence and drive. 00:16:00 **Jamie Roberts:** That is definitely a worry, too. That's hard– because we can't do it. So it comes back to– that we invest in one in a hundred, because some of them– some of the businesses we meet want more from us than we can give them. 00:16:12 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:16:12 **Jamie Roberts:** So if we meet a business and we go– think the team's really great, think the market's really great, think the product's really great– but they need somebody who's going to get really heavily involved, open doors, help them with the next tech development, and do something more– we say– well, that's not us– we can't do– we really can't do that– we don't want you to take our money. Think it's the open doors thing– so the most common thing for the younger ones– the raw ones– they come in and go– look, I've got this really good idea, I've got this website, I've got this product– can you just go and open doors– go get me some sales, please? 00:16:43 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:16:44 **Jamie Roberts:** That– we get that a lot. We get that. 00:16:45 **Aleksandra King:** You get that a lot. What does the network look like? 00:16:47 **Jamie Roberts:** One of the questions we get is– can we sell to the other YFM portfolio companies? So we've got 56 portfolio companies– and they will– not all of them, but most businesses we meet will say– oh, we'd love the opportunity to go and pitch to your portfolio companies. To which I say– yeah, that's brilliant– but if we invest in you, do you want to hear from the other 55 trying to sell their products to you? Because– because they don't. So we'll absolutely be helpful– if– so often a portfolio company will come to us and say– we've got this– we're targeting this company– or, this person we want to sell to– and we can see that on LinkedIn you're connected to them, or you're a second connection– what's– is there anything there that you can help us with? And absolutely– if we can help, of course we will– and we're well networked, so we can do that. We will help provide– sort– a lot of our companies want to go into the US– we've got quite a lot of experience of backing businesses going to the US. So if somebody says– we want to move in– want to open up in the US– what can you do to help us?– we sort of say– look, here are the 10 great non-execs we know, or advisers, who will join your board, or come into the business as a consultant– and they'll help you look around corners. But it's not me– it's not– it's not our team– it's not YFM who can do that. But there's not many sectors we don't know somebody that can go in and help– yeah– but as an operator, rather than an investor. And I do encourage people to think really hard about what they want. So– do they want an investor, who's there to put money into the business and help as much as they can– or do they want to recruit an operator? So when somebody says to me– can you open doors– I say– I can give you the money to recruit a sales director– 00:18:23 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:18:24 **Jamie Roberts:** –or a marketing director– but I can't go and do– I can't do selling for you. It's not what– 00:18:28 **Aleksandra King:** But sometimes it's– look, here's the idea– can you just run my business for me, and sort of tell me what to do at every stage? 00:18:36 **Jamie Roberts:** And– you know– yeah– that's a tricky one, actually. It's the– can you bring– you probably get this more than we do– but– can you bring your profile to my business? At which point you end up sort of saying– well– I assume– I can give you– if I give you my profile, then I'm sort of investing quite a lot in your business– because if your business doesn't do great, that impacts my– that impacts my profile. 00:18:59 **Aleksandra King:** Co-branding thing– yeah. So– I suppose you deal with risk– that is the emotion that you deal with all the time– and you probably define risk differently to the average person, because you're exposed to it all the time. So how do you think about risk? 00:19:16 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. So– risk-reward, right? I believe risk-reward is 100% balanced in a– in a normal market. So sometimes– credit crunch– everybody was overpricing risk and worrying about risk too much– and sort of post-Covid, when money was sort of free, people were underpricing risk. But if you look back over time, there is no reward without risk. So when we see– and that's not just for investors– that's for founders– we see people who have these massive exits and have done really, really well– and people talk about the overnight success– that's ignoring the 10 years of risk they took to get to the overnight success. And– so– for us, it's all– we try and quantify– which is really difficult– how are we going to feel if this business gets sold for 500 million in 5 years' time? How much– how– what sort of return are we making on our money– and how are we going to feel? So if we make– if the business today has got a million or two of revenue and 10 members of staff– and it's going to– and we think we sell it for 500 million, and we make 10 times our money– does that feel good, for the risks we've taken? Because you sort of got to visualise– what's the business got to look like to sell for 500 million– what's got to happen from here to here– and if all that happens and we make 10 times the money, are we happy with that– or are we saying, that's not quite enough? And we try and think about it a bit like that, rather than– what's the day– what are we investing on day one– it's more about– when this goes really well, are we going to make enough money at the other end? 00:20:50 **Aleksandra King:** So you can be nice. 00:20:51 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– yeah. 00:20:52 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. So what's a red flag that will torch a deal pretty much straight away? 00:20:59 **Jamie Roberts:** Lying. 00:21:00 **Aleksandra King:** Lying– oh– that's a strong word, isn't it? 00:21:03 **Jamie Roberts:** Deliberately misrepresenting. 00:21:05 **Aleksandra King:** Well– that is again like The Apprentice candidates– the CV– where it's like– there was one which is really funny– I actually rewatched it the other day, because I was doing some research for something– and one of the candidates didn't know the differences between, you know, gross profit and all this– just basic terms– didn't understand– and then basically gave the wrong impression of how much money the business was making– 00:21:26 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. 00:21:27 **Aleksandra King:** –and a lack of knowledge– and all of it sort of came together in one awful encounter with Claude Littner, I think it was, at the time. 00:21:34 **Jamie Roberts:** I've seen– yeah. 00:21:35 **Aleksandra King:** Horrific. 00:21:35 **Jamie Roberts:** And he hams it up, doesn't he? Cos he– that's his part of it, isn't it– is to play that– I'm the suit– you think Alan Sugar's bad cop– I'm actually– \[unclear: "cord in that"?\]– but– so– so that's interesting, because for us as investors, it comes back to this different style. I don't expect founders to know all of that stuff– 00:21:54 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:21:54 **Jamie Roberts:** –because they're not– they're not accountants, they're not investors, they're not bankers– they're running their business. So they've got to know sales, marketing, tech, HR– they're doing everything– so they're in everything. So we never– we take a different approach– that if we ask a question they don't know the answer, we're like– well– that's cool– of course– you're a small business, you haven't got loads of people. It'd be great if you could come back to us with that– and if you don't know how to get that, then we can help you do that. And actually, if you've– if you're on a– if it's a numbers– numbery– question, then you're probably using one of half a dozen software tools– we've got people at YFM that we can just give them login access to your stuff, and they can go in and do all that work– and you don't have to– yeah– they can answer those questions. 00:22:36 **Aleksandra King:** It does get complicated. 00:22:37 **Jamie Roberts:** It does. And we– so we don't judge– we don't– we don't consider not knowing something a red flag. Somebody who deliberately– deliberately misrepresents– so if they say– I've got 50 customers and I'm generating this much revenue– and then we get into exclusivity– and then, when we start doing the work, you realise they've got 15 customers, but 45– or 35– have said they really want to buy it– you sort of go– oh– that's quite difficult. Because it's– I think about investing as– it's like getting married. So I've been with my wife– 00:23:11 **Aleksandra King:** It's like getting married? It's like getting married! 00:23:13 **Jamie Roberts:** No– I do– I do– I absolutely think it's like getting married. Somebody said– I was at an event earlier this week, and somebody said– the average ang– so angel investing in the UK is really early-stage investing– the average angel investment in the UK is longer than the average marriage in America. I don't know if that fact's true, but I'm definitely going to take it as my own. So you meet– we meet a new– we meet a new opportunity– we're going to get to know them really well– and then, at some point, we're going to decide– actually– this is– we want to go on this journey together. And then we're going to invest some money in their business, and they're going to give us some shares– and then we're going to build the value together– and then, at the end of it, hopefully there's some great event. If somebody behaves in– if we behave in a way that's unpleasant, or they behave in a way that makes us nervous– before we've transacted, or got married– we sort of know what's going to happen on the other side. Yeah– so we do think about it as a– we're building a relationship– marriage– and whatever you show– you know– however we all behave now is a really good example as to how we're going to behave. 00:24:13 **Aleksandra King:** What happens if you get married and you want the divorce? 00:24:16 **Jamie Roberts:** It's tough. So– it happens– it's really– yeah– it's tough– it's really tough. And ultimately you end up trying to– so the documentation includes lots of stuff to try and– 00:24:25 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– legal things. 00:24:27 **Jamie Roberts:** –and there's protection in place– but it's going to be protection for everybody– like every divorce– it's going to be– yeah– it's going to be– it's not going to be helpful in creating value. But we've got lots of examples where the management team has said– we don't want to do this anymore– it's really tiring, running a business– 00:24:42 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:24:42 **Jamie Roberts:** So sometimes teams will say to us– we've been at this for 5 years now– we want to– either want to stop work– now want to keep our equity– let's go and recruit our successors– brilliant– let's go and do that together. So you can– if you're open– like all things– you get through the bumps in the road just by being open. The ones that are difficult is if people aren't open. 00:25:05 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– what if they're a little bit too open, and they're, like, too optimistic– and they're overstretching their– their ambitions? And– that– do you see that quite quickly– to spot that– you know– they're trying to stretch out what they plan? 00:25:17 **Jamie Roberts:** And I think that's cool, as long as it's fundable. Yeah– so– so we get nervous about blind optimism– but people coming to us– test and learn– we– we really like the test and learn philosophy. 00:25:27 **Aleksandra King:** So– test and learn? 00:25:28 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. So– I want to go into the US– so, somebody's got a business in the UK, turning over 20 million, makes a couple of million profit– I want to go and open up in the US. If the plan is– I want to open an office in– I don't know– Washington– and here's a really good reason why– in Washington I'm going to recruit three people– I don't really know what I'm going to do after I've recruited the three people, but I'm going to try that– that's really cool. That's– that's ambition. We'll try it– we're going to get some stuff wrong, we're going to get some stuff right– and the more right we get, we'll recruit more people– we might open another office. The ones that– the ones that would be a nervous– orange flag, I guess– are the ones who say– I've got 20 million in revenue in the UK and 100 people– I want 5 million investment, because I'm going to go and recruit 300 people in the US and open 30 opportunities within 12 months. 00:26:15 **Aleksandra King:** I get it– yeah– that's extreme. 00:26:17 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– and it doesn't– it doesn't mean they can't do it– it's just executionally quite tough. 00:26:23 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– dip your toes a bit. 00:26:25 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. You'd be surprised how many times we see business plans, and we say to people– right– so by the end of this year, you're going to have an extra 20 staff. So that means you've got to recruit two people a month, on average. How many people do you have to meet to recruit two? And most people will know, off the top of their head– well– probably– you know– in their sector– probably got to meet five to recruit two. Right– so you've got to be interviewing 10 people a month, every month, for the next 12 months. Okay– you can see– and you start to play it back– actually– maths can be useful. 00:26:53 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– yeah– yeah– it can be useful when you break it down like that. Okay. So– what's one type of risk that people should actually take more often– you know– business owners? It's quite– quite a general question, I guess, but– 00:27:08 **Jamie Roberts:** You know– I think in the UK– I think in the US there's– people are more bullish– and this is going to come straight back at me, right, because investors are exactly the same– I'm not sure we take enough risk in the UK, generally. I don't think– I don't think we– when people say– why doesn't the UK build massive companies like they do in the US– part of that is because the US is bigger– so it's multiple times bigger– so of course their exits are going to be multiple times bigger than ours. I think there is a– it's sort of quite British, isn't it– to not be out there. 00:27:41 **Aleksandra King:** Totally. 00:27:42 **Jamie Roberts:** You'd be surprised how many– one of the questions we ask really early– first meeting– is– what does success look like for the founder? So– what does success look like for you? Why are you doing this? 00:27:50 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:27:51 **Jamie Roberts:** And very few say, cos I want to make money. 00:27:54 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– oh my gosh– this is such a– you've just hit something that– you know– this has definitely been on my mind– and I interview a lot of people as part of this podcast, and I get a lot of insights as well into– into– you know– with business owners and things like that. And there is the– there is a thing about the UK being a little bit like that– sort of– humble– it's not nice to show off– stop– put that down– don't be so– you know– out there– don't do the personal brand– just– you know– that's not very English– just maybe just calm down– you're putting yourself out there. Whereas– you know– I grew up in South Africa– and actually, that was a very entrepreneurial country– it was building– it's sizzling– it's sort of like the UAE now– there's like an entrepreneurial– you know– like– flame, almost– when you go into the country, you almost feel it– it's like a sizzle in the streets– you can feel that business energy– 00:28:47 **Jamie Roberts:** Mhm. 00:28:47 **Aleksandra King:** –and in America, you feel the energy as well. And in the UK, there is that– and the thing is– we also don't want to be too mean about the British– the way Brits run their businesses– because they are such grafters– and– you know– we get down– or– we don't talk a lot– we work– we get things done– we're very– you know– we move through stuff. But yes– we probably don't put ourselves on a stage enough– we probably don't ask for enough money– that includes from our clients– and we're not openly– well– open about money. 00:29:17 **Jamie Roberts:** Yep. Because it's rude to be, in British culture. We talk about– we have phrases in the UK, don't we– old money, new money. It's really weird, isn't it? What– what does that– I don't know what that means– what does new money mean? Old– old money. We don't– we– the– this is an absolute bugbear for me– that we will take a positive– and the– the media– let's blame the media, right– cos that's easy– the media make positives negatives. And I was talking to a journalist from a broadsheet a couple of months ago, and I said– why did you represent this success story– so, when Darktrace got sold– instead of the headline being– Darktrace gets sold for many billions of pounds to the US– the US investor is going to keep Darktrace based in the UK– female founder success story– we don't have enough of those– like– why aren't we making this like a really big positive thing– why was the headline– another UK business sells out too soon? 00:30:13 **Aleksandra King:** Oh. 00:30:14 **Jamie Roberts:** And– and the journalist said to me– great question, Jamie. So what happens is– we print– the– the journalist– and this lady had written the article– she– like– so– I had written the article, I submit it to the online editor– and the online editor has control of– to– what the hook is on the website. And that article was online, and had got very little clickthrough rate– because it's mid-morning– as soon as the online editor changed that headline to– British success story sells out– another British success story sells out too soon– the click rate was 40 times faster. So we blame the media– but of course, now the media just presents back to us what we're conditioned to like. So I do– I think that Britishness is a bit self– we don't– we're always looking to knock– I think there's a habit of– we knock people down, rather than– I think other countries are better at celebrating their success– celebrating their heroes– continually– whereas we, I think, as a culture, can be a bit too quick to point and poke. 00:31:17 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. I've got someone actually coming on that– that will– you know– a guest that will talk about that– you know– the cultural shift– and the mindset of Brits– and whether we celebrate wealthy people in this country– people that have achieved things– or whether we go– oh– you're posh– or– you're– yeah– you're rich– so you would– you know– you're not one of us. It's like– yeah– it is such a topic. 00:31:42 **Jamie Roberts:** You stop being allowed an opinion. So I'm lucky enough to know people who have done very well– through– through work– through network– and– it's like– they stop being allowed an opinion, because it becomes– down– it's all right for you. 00:31:56 **Aleksandra King:** It's all right for you– yeah. 00:31:57 **Jamie Roberts:** And I do– I do worry that– we should want those people to talk more– we should want those people to be out and about more, and being listened to– and– dare I say– being more involved in running around the country. But we sort of go the other way, and say– well– you– what do you know– because you– no– 00:32:14 **Aleksandra King:** So– so this is why I love this podcast so much– and I love the fact that I can host the podcast– because there's no room for that negative talk in this space. I just think that– that all has to change. 00:32:26 **Jamie Roberts:** Yep. 00:32:26 **Aleksandra King:** Let's get– you know– if we want to grow the economy of this country– we want to do well– we want to be positive– we want to have really good lives– you know– make it– you know– just enjoy our country– build wealth– engineer our lives so that they're amazing– then we need to start being positive– we need to start really– you know– rewarding ambition and hard work. And it doesn't matter where– you know– your– your beginnings– the– it matters what work you've done– 00:32:54 **Jamie Roberts:** Yep. 00:32:55 **Aleksandra King:** –what skills you've brought in– how much heart you've put into it– that's what matters– and everything else is irrelevant, really. 00:33:02 **Jamie Roberts:** I agree. And it– and actually– we can all poke at the– we're dangerous if we talk about politics– but it's very easy to blame the government, and the media, and stuff– but actually, the UK has the best tax advantages for individuals to invest in early-stage businesses in the world. So SEIS, EIS, venture capital trusts, R&D tax credits, Innovate UK, all the regional venture growth funds– there is so much– say– government money– it's our money, isn't it– the government are giving back– but the– the government have all of these schemes out there to encourage people to invest in businesses that are growing. So we're really good at that– I think we're awesome at that bit– the bit that gets a business from startup to 20 million of revenue– the UK– there's nowhere else you'd be better off to do that, financially. And that's before you get to the legislative– the UK is a great place, legally, to build a business– because the courts and the law is so fair. But once you get to that 20 million revenue, all of that support starts to disappear– because we just don't have the same– it's like– that's enough success now– you shouldn't need help from the government tax advantage schemes for people to invest in your business, cos you're big now. Whereas actually– I sort of– God– they need that– that's– what– if they said– you could keep accessing that money, from that investor base, until you're very big– that's how we'd end up with very big businesses. 00:34:27 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– yeah. I mean– that's just such practical, excellent advice that you could be giving to the government. They need to listen– they need to listen to people that know about these things and get proper advice. Sometimes you think– but where did you– who– who advised you? Did anyone in the entrepreneurial world literally advise– have you had the conversation with business people, or not? 00:34:47 **Jamie Roberts:** So– it's– so– I talk to a local MP a tiny bit– through somebody else I know– so I've been introduced to him– and he– he genuinely– Labour MP– he genuinely wants to learn and understand– and– you know– but he's coming from a really low base. So he's trying to learn– but he also– he's only– it's a four-year term, or something– like– how much– how much can you expect them to learn and be ready, given everything else they've got to do? But yeah– I mean– that'd be my absolute message– we're really great at the early-stage bit– if we could just grow that a bit higher– start saying– actually– we're going to support these businesses for much longer– I think– 00:35:24 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So the businesses that you do support– what separates, like, a nice business– you know– you're– yeah– you're good– you know– you've got some potential, or whatever– from one that– you know– like– okay– you are really a business that can scale up massively in the next five years? We've kind of touched on this, but– 00:35:41 **Jamie Roberts:** But just so– market– I mean– you ultimately come– the amount of times I– so– I– you get two types of opportunities. One is– there's a massive market, and our product is better, or as good as, and we're going to execute it really well. And that's exciting– it's hard– isn't– it's not impossible, but it's just a bit harder– because you've got lots of people already supplying the solution– and if your product is x% better, it's great– but you've got to convince somebody to go through the heartache of changing a piece of software– that's really difficult. So you can sit in front of– if I've got a software product that's better than your software product, and you're more established, and I go to your customers and say– please swap to mine, because it's better– 00:36:28 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– it's a big change, isn't it? Everyone's busy– why would I– how much better is better? 00:36:33 **Jamie Roberts:** So if you're going into a market that's already well served, you've got to– it's got to be materially better. But they can still do really, really well– you've just got to execute really, really well– so it comes back to the people being top-notch. The other part of the– the other side of that is people who say– there is a big market coming– there is a market here that's currently small, but it's absolutely exploding. So– from a risk– risk for us– probably the risk is a bit higher, because the market might stop growing– and if the market doesn't grow, you've got no chance– but the upside is bigger, because there's what we call white space– there's more white space to go for. Because you're going to– you're going to somebody and saying– you're currently doing something in a way that's not great– my solution makes that a hundred times easier. 00:37:22 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:37:22 **Jamie Roberts:** So we try and mix the two– the portfolio– we don't do this too actively– but we try and create a mix of portfolio for the two different types that we're going after. 00:37:31 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. There's– there's so much in business, and there's so many different angles to approach it from. But yes– if you've got that better product– the better software– are you also able to communicate it easily– 00:37:45 **Jamie Roberts:** Yep. 00:37:45 **Aleksandra King:** –to say that it's– is there a road map to that– that's pretty obvious– and then– and proven as well, that it translates– 00:37:54 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. 00:37:54 **Aleksandra King:** –you know– into a sale– that customers now moving to us because we're better. But I also love that whole execution thing that you were talking about. So if you are better– like– who's on that conveyor belt to constantly churn out that better way of working– you know– and how feasible is that– scalable– and– and what does the– what does the plan look like? 00:38:19 **Jamie Roberts:** So the– so if we're investing in a business today with a million of revenue, maybe there's 10 or 20 people in that business– but the founders– probably still– or the founder, or founders, are still doing a bit of everything. Well– that business is doing 30 million of revenue– it's going to need team heads– it's going to– it's going to need management layers– it's going to– well– who are you– who are you bringing– who are you bringing through to do that? So we talk a lot about people planning– or organisational design. When this business– we– I know we started this by saying we could be negative and start from no– but when we're saying that– when this is– when we go into an investment, one of the things we look at is– in five years' time, when we're delivering 50 million of revenue, what's the– what's the organogram? So how are we bridging from the organogram we've got today to the organogram in five years' time? Because we probably got to start bringing those people through now– because they're going to need developing for year five– or they're going to need hiring. 00:39:12 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:39:12 **Jamie Roberts:** And that is a– I'm not sure people think about that bit enough when they come to talk to us. 00:39:17 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– and they also don't think about– when they do hire these people– okay– so we're looking at CVs– we're looking at whether people can do the job– you're bringing them in– you're growing– but then also– are you thinking about culture? Are you thinking about– of course you'll get a feeling for a person in the interview– hopefully there's a few interviews– but– but once they are on board– there's also– there– you know– I find– I think we spoke about this even earlier– that there has to be some process where– well– as a founder– you want the people working with you– you never want to lose touch with the way they're working– 00:39:50 **Jamie Roberts:** Yep. 00:39:51 **Aleksandra King:** –you know– with your company culture– like– with the absolute core fundamental behaviour traits that anyone in this business should have– you know– honesty– and– you know– putting the client first– like– actually doing it– and not saying that they're doing it– and– and there should be a process to onboard that– and then to just touch in with that– and ensure that you're not losing– as the business grows– that you're getting in people that actually– they're not right– and they're starting to tank the business from within. Because cracks form– they'll communicate really badly with a client– or, even worse, they won't communicate with a client– and they'll just sort of do their work, and the client has no clue what's– so all of that– there's so much throughout that growth that you then also have to think about– and not lose sight of– otherwise you land up with something that you never intended. 00:40:37 **Jamie Roberts:** So– real– real example for us is– the– so when you're in that growth-hacking phase– sort of pre us investing– 10 to 20 people– probably– it's not always the case– now– probably in one office, or in one region– and they all get together a couple of times a week. Building a culture is hard– but not too hard– because you're all together– we're all in this together– we're going to take over the world. There's not a lot of HR process and– and stuff– you do everything you need to do– but you're not worrying too much about layers. That is one type of organisation. When you're a hundred people, you've suddenly got different departments– you're probably not– you're probably not in the same building– you hopefully– you are– but you might be on different floors– you might be different teams and stuff. So one of the things we've seen– it was an investment I made a long time ago– was– and it went really well, really quickly– brilliant– that's– what a great investment– aren't I smart. And then what we found was– the– the sales team was onboarding clients– and clients were saying– oh– I'd love it if you had this functionality– 00:41:39 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:41:39 **Jamie Roberts:** Sales team were going– yeah– brilliant– we'll put that in the– we'll put that in the tech stack. Because the tech team were somewhere– they're in a different part of the country. So what was happening– the sales team, to get the sale, were just saying– yeah– we'll do– and then the tech stack was like this– and then customers were saying– I've– six, nine months in– and– I bought your product because you were going to change this. And the sales guys are then saying– yeah– sorry– the tech guys haven't done it. The tech guys are saying– but that was never in our road map– so why have you promised that one feature to that one customer? And it was– and it was fine– we had about a year where we had to tidy stuff up and get everything right– and we've exited that investment, and it was great for everybody. But there was a– even we do this all the time– and even we just missed that moment where that business had scaled so quickly and had become desperate– and it was nobody's fault– everyone was just really busy. And what we found was– the new salespeople weren't quite bought into the culture of all-together– the salespeople were bought into their target– their quota– I'm going to hit my quota– so they hit their quota– and they were doing a great job– and they were being celebrated. The tech team– who were doing everything they'd agreed to do in the year– were then being moaned at– because churn was high– because customers were leaving– because they weren't getting the product that had been sold. 00:42:47 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– oh– interesting– interesting. When I started– I joined a consulting company, in my career early days– an American one– and the culture there– you know– the Accenture guys– all those big consulting companies– they bring consultants and contractors– but basically, when you come into– it's like tech, IT stuff– you come in there– everyone gets a consulting skills 101 course– it's a three-day course, right– and you get a communications course– because they will not let you go near the client without that training. Even though you're doing– you know– technical things– you might be sitting behind the computer and doing business analyst, let's say– 00:43:25 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. 00:43:25 **Aleksandra King:** –they will not let you go near them until you've passed these things. And it's really cool– because they'll teach you– just– they'll give examples of things that can happen– real-life scenarios– and they'll teach you in a– in a setting– you know– they'll set something up, and they'll teach you how to behave in that– 00:43:39 **Jamie Roberts:** Fantastic. 00:43:40 **Aleksandra King:** Because you would be surprised– you know– even now– how to– how to– what's the correct way to appear on a Zoom– and it's quite rude when you have your camera off– but just little things– little things that make so much difference– to just bring– 00:43:51 **Jamie Roberts:** But yes– we're– we're going into the– so– I have– we have– meet here– yeah– 10, 12– we have 12 investment managers, if you like– so they're sort of people joining the– the investing– most of them just joining the investment world for the first time– most of them accountants, unfortunately– mostly been through– bit– yeah– I'm not an accountant. You've got to be careful about numbers not dictating our world. 00:44:11 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I was going to– that's my next question for you– my next question for you, actually. 00:44:15 **Jamie Roberts:** What we find, when we bring people in, is– we do end up talking to them a lot about sort of– two ears, one mouth– so– like– use them in that ratio– so you should be listening more than you're speaking, always. Are you listening to speak, or listening to hear? So– too often, people are listening because they're waiting for a gap– because they want to show how smart they are. Actually– just really engage with the person– show you're listening– like– just really engage– not in a creepy, stare-y way– but just show you're– actually do stuff that shows you're– shows you're listening. And I don't know where those skills are meant to be taught– but I don't– I suspect you were probably quite lucky, to go through that sort of onboarding process early in your career. 00:44:53 **Aleksandra King:** They really do– they really teach you– it's a fantastic training– fantastic. Literally, how to speak to the client– you know– how to stand– what to do with your hands– how to present– how to– everything. What– what to say– what not to say– what happens in a crisis– you know– something goes wrong– what do you do– who do you– who do you not blame– all that kind of thing. And you think it's actually quite basic– but it's also not– cos so many people get it wrong. 00:45:18 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– it's basic when you know it. Like– that's the– that's the thing– that– there's one chap who works for us now– and he's like– you talk about all this stuff, Jamie, like it's really easy– but then– I can't– I'm not an accountant– I don't really– I'm not great with– I'm– I'm good with numbers, but I'm not great with numbers– and I'll say to the– the people in the team who are just great on Excel, and can do all this stuff– I'm like– oh– wow– I can't believe you can do that thing with– you've built this thing– and this Excel is getting all very exciting– I can't believe you can do that. And because that's a hard, tangible skill, I'm comfortable in saying that to them– and– teach me how to do that. Whereas when it's a softer skill– like engaging with people– people who haven't been taught it find it a bit harder to say– please, can you just teach me how to engage with people in the way you engage with people? 00:46:02 **Aleksandra King:** It's probably the most important training course you can– you can receive. I mean– if you're client-facing– you know– because maybe the developers who will never, ever see the client really don't need it– but anyone in the business who's talking to a client– they need to know how to– to run a meeting– all of it– how to behave– how to– what to say– what not to say– how to present information– everything. There's just a huge kaleidoscope of things. 00:46:27 **Jamie Roberts:** If you change the word client to stakeholder, then suddenly the IT guys and girls do need to know how to talk to people– because in that example I gave earlier– if the– the tech team had– maybe they did– this might be a fail in this– but if the tech team were more comfortable in communicating with the sales team, maybe the sales team would have realised sooner what they were– what they were getting wrong. So I do– we talk a lot about– everybody's your customer. So– if you need somebody– in terms– 65 people– so it's not massive– but we've offices all around the UK– so there is a bit of distance sometimes. You need to be talking to everybody. If you need somebody to do something for you, let's rely on the fact they want to do it for you, rather than they should do it for you. That comes down to building good relationship– talking to them– listening– all that stuff that you would use for your customers– but let's use it internally as well. 00:47:16 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– gosh– I could run away with about 400 other statements– I need to stick to the script, because we're moving along– around a little bit. Okay– so what is the– the main differentiator, for you, from a lifestyle business, and a business that's got the potential to be a proper business– not a lifestyle business, basically? 00:47:37 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– lifestyle is a– a great– a great bucket– but it's really changed, hasn't it, since Covid. So– lifestyle, before, would be considered– I would say, when I started my career in the City– lifestyle would have been considered lazy. Whereas now we have– people who don't work very hard– we have lifestyle– we have work–life balance– there's this whole bucket of– of stuff– and we also have the 24/7 on– which is terrible– because we've all got our phones in our pockets all the time. So– for me– lifestyle– if I meet founders who talk about their children– their families– going on holiday– picking the kids up from school– going to sports days– their hobbies– that's awesome– because I need people to have something outside of work. People who have stuff going on outside of work are significantly more stable than people who– 00:48:29 **Aleksandra King:** Stable– I like that word. 00:48:30 **Jamie Roberts:** –significantly more stable than people who are working 150 hours a week– they're on it– you know– all the tech-bro stuff that we get out of the US– that– that worries me. So– for– so– I don't want people that do that– I don't want people coming in looking shattered, and all wired, and chugging cans of Red Bull– you'd be surprised how many times that happens. But I– I also look for people who– there is language that people will use around– so– what does success look like for you– if people start talking, at 35, about wanting to retire in two or three years' time and sitting on the beach– and I– I don't mind that as an aspiration– but I just want to check in that they're not already– 00:49:07 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– can I ask you a question about that? If– if– you know– you say that– do you expect someone to answer in monetary terms– or can they answer with an ambition? 00:49:17 **Jamie Roberts:** So– I– I want– I like people to talk about the ambition. So– what does success look like– I want to build a good– people say to me at YFM– like– what does success look like– I've been there for 12 years– I became managing partner six months ago– so, what does success look like for me now– because I've been working my way up to– to the top job, if you like. What does success look like for me now? I want to build a great business that I'm really proud of– and I love seeing all the– the people join our business– perhaps not knowing private equity– and then smashing it– doing really well– that's the thing I'm most proud of. We took everybody away a couple of weeks ago– I love the fact we're in some decent restaurant– and it's expensive– and everyone's enjoying it– I get a lot of satisfaction from that. But I do like my family– and I do like– I like going on holiday with my children– I like my children doing things I didn't do when I was growing up. 00:50:09 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:50:10 **Jamie Roberts:** So– and they're the sort of answers I really like. And at some point– hopefully I've got a long time working– at some point I won't be working– somebody else will be running YFM– and I'll look at it from afar and be really proud that I was part of that journey– and hopefully some people will think I've done a good job. I like that chat, from founders. The founders who don't really have an answer to it– they're the ones where I go– isn't that weird– because you did set this up for a reason– you are going through this pain every day for a reason– so what is it? What's the reason? What is it? 00:50:42 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– yeah– that– it's odd that they wouldn't say it– or maybe they're afraid that if they monetise it, it sets an expectation– and they might– I don't– I don't– 00:50:50 **Jamie Roberts:** There's also a fascinating– a fascinating fact– that if you say to somebody– what does success look like– and they talk it through– and you saying– is making money success– and they'll always say– yeah– actually, I do want to make some money– and I promise you, the number is always either 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100– it's always very– round ballpark– 00:51:10 **Aleksandra King:** Around– round ballpark numbers– 50– yeah– yeah– that'll do me. 00:51:15 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah. 00:51:15 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So– in terms of the– the founders that you connect with– that you feel have potential– what is a trait that many of them share? 00:51:26 **Jamie Roberts:** There– I was going to say, they're all a bit bonkers– that's a terrible– 00:51:30 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– mad– yeah. You said you want them to be stable! 00:51:33 **Jamie Roberts:** I do want– that's something we can– can throw in– I do. What– what's the common trait– is– there's a burning desire in them– there's something in them that puts them apart from most people. There is a thing that they're– passion– they show a passion– there's a thing in it– when they're talking about it– that they light up– they absolutely– like– they're telling you their story, and they're lighting up about it. And they– you– the ones who are super polished– that's great, right– and a lot of founders are salespeople, marketers and stuff– they can be super polished– but they will– they will over-talk– they'll– the amount of times you– you hear in a first meeting– God– sorry– I've gone on a segue there– yeah– love it– I want you to go on a segue– I want you to– I want you to sort of drift off, and dream, and talk about things. They say– oh God– no– sorry– let me take you back to the point. Cos what that's showing me is– your– your mouth– or whatever– your brain and your mouth have got so excited, you've got out of sync of what you prepared– I want to see that sort of excitement in– 00:52:32 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– but at what point has that become a delusion as well? Actually, there was a TikTok going around the other day– which was about– most really successful people are actually quite delusional– or have been delusional– about their success. I mean– delusional is quite a negative term– but yeah– where's the line between that, and then sort of tipping over to that slightly too much? 00:52:57 **Jamie Roberts:** I know– so– well– you take it to its absolute extremes– the lady in the US who started that blood-testing business– 00:53:05 **Aleksandra King:** Oh yes– yes– she's gone to prison, right? 00:53:07 **Jamie Roberts:** And– and lots of people lost lots of money– it's a terrible story. But at what point do you go from faking it till you make it, to fraud? And I don't know– the– you know– I've read the book– and it's– it's fascinating– and it's presented in a way that presents her terribly– and she's gone to prison and stuff– so let's assume she was on the bad end of it. But actually– when you're a founder, you do have to sit there and go– I'm going to do this thing– I'm going to build this thing– I haven't got it yet, but I'm going to build this thing. So you do have to have some– I don't know what the word is– chutzpah– is that the word– I don't know– like– something about you that says– actually– I'm going to present this. But there's levels of belief, isn't it? So you think about Elon Musk– who says– I'm going to go and conquer Mars– and everyone goes– what an idiot. But then– now he's got Starlink– he's got– he– he puts more rockets in space than anybody else in the world– he's– you know– he's a long way on that journey. 00:53:59 **Aleksandra King:** Totally. 00:53:59 **Jamie Roberts:** So it's not– so I wouldn't meet a founder and say– you're delusional– I'd meet a founder and say– we're not– you– we're not the right investor for you– wanting to go and– colonise Mars– we're– we're not that journey. If you were to come to us and say– I think space travel is going to get– space is going to become more and more interesting– so I'm developing this product that makes it easier for satellites to be smaller– because you can put more satellites on a rocket– and more rockets are going to go up– and I've made– I've got 15 customers already– and we turn over a million pounds– and I think we can probably get this to being 200 customers and 300 million of revenue– but I'm going to need a lot of money to do it– that's where I sort of think– actually– on the spectrum of ambition– that's– feels on the road map– yeah– that's a YFM ambition. Versus the– I want to go and colonise Mars– that's a US VC vision– for somebody that's not me. 00:55:00 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– but how much do you expect them to know? Let's say they've got that big vision– how much do you expect them to know– how to get there? Is– is that an expectation– or are you happy to figure it out with them? 00:55:12 **Jamie Roberts:** That's a difficult one– because they must have some idea. So most founders are first-time founders– so the amount of times I meet people who say– well, I've never done this before– I'm like– well– everybody's never done anything for the first time– they do it. So– I think we really like– I was told– before I came in this morning, I was talking to somebody on the portfolio side– who sits on the companies' boards– and he was talking about one of his businesses that's looking to make an acquisition– and I was like– yeah– and– and one of the comforts for me is– they're really engaged in finding people to help them. So I love a founder who talks about mentors, and coaches– and– yeah– I've just changed my mentor, because the last mentor I had– I've outgrown– and they're apologetic for outgrowing them– but actually– they were great for this part of my journey– now I've got to find the one for my next. I love that– I love people who go looking for the help, and believe they don't know everything– they're really– 00:56:03 **Aleksandra King:** Yes– I love that– I love that very much– for so many reasons– some of them I'm– I'm not even allowed to say– but yeah– I love that. Michael Phelps– I also love athletes– I adore super-athlete mentality– and they do have these visions of– like– I am– I am going to– it's not, I might– it is, I am going to be the best in the world. Michael Phelps– I am going to win eight Olympic gold medals– and he was– come on– that's unreal– like– don't do that– it's a bit unrealistic– or very unrealistic– don't do it. And he did. And it's like– and– and those medals come in very careful planning– orchestration– determination– and diet– all those millions of little steps. But actually– with an athlete– and– and also speaking to much bigger and better business owners than I am– they– they make it– they simplify the whole mess that business can be– and it is the little steps of execution– and it's like– right– here's the stages– here's the work that has to be done– here's how you do it– like– here's the people that you need– and then you just go one, two, three– and it's actually not that bad, when you sort of demystify how you get those eight Olympic gold medals. But actually– how many hours should you be swimming– what massages do you need– what's your nutrition– 00:57:24 **Jamie Roberts:** Mhm. 00:57:25 **Aleksandra King:** –electrolytes– all that stuff– your team. 00:57:27 **Jamie Roberts:** So it's marginal gains, isn't it? So– we think marginal gains– that is now– that's a phrase that has been in– whoever the guy who took over the cycling team– I can't remember– but he– the guy who manages– and– and business– I'm not massively into sports and stuff– but– so I run– and I like Formula 1– but that's about the beginning and end of it. But I– I listen to a lot of stuff from sports people– because I'm not really that interested in which football game they won or didn't win– that's not my thing– but I'm interested in how they got there– I– I love that story. 00:57:58 **Aleksandra King:** Interesting– natural– natural talent. 00:58:00 **Jamie Roberts:** Natural talent is a– natural talent's a– way– be controversial here– natural talent is used by people to justify why they haven't done something someone else has done– is my view. So they will say– well– you're just naturally gifted at that, aren't you? Maybe I was naturally gifted at it– but– you know– I've worked really hard. So it's– we think about– super sports people, and the sacrifices they make to get there– they just make sacrifices that– that most people sit there and go– I just can't believe– I can't envisage myself ever doing that– so I'm going to tell myself– yeah– but they've got natural talent, haven't they– it's not that– you know– I'd just sooner have a more balanced life– I'd sooner watch some Netflix than go to the gym. 00:58:41 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:58:41 **Jamie Roberts:** So– we use natural– I think natural talent is sort of a very lazy way of saying– I don't want it as much as that person wants it. 00:58:50 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. And then also– if you're speaking to someone– and then– you– if– if you're the person that's sort of putting the idea down, or whatever– like– why– why are you putting that down? Of course– don't feed delusions– so if someone does have a tendency to get a bit– you know– that way– then you can gently bring them in– but I think when someone has that entrepreneurial spirit, it's nice to encourage them– to anyone listening– I think it's– it's nice to– 00:59:12 **Jamie Roberts:** So I have– some friends of mine who– so– people will talk about me as being a toxic optimist. So we have a WhatsApp group– some friends– and– and the– the WhatsApp group is called Toxic Optimism– because I– I sort of do believe you can do anything, if you really want it enough and you're prepared to make enough sacrifices– there's probably not a lot you– you can't achieve. But what you do need is smart people around you– professionally, and in your personal life– who just rein that back a bit– test it a bit. So– my wife Sarah and I have been together since university– Sarah's like– yeah– we both– we met the January of our first year at university– 00:59:49 **Aleksandra King:** That's adorable. 00:59:50 **Jamie Roberts:** It's definitely not– we talk about the fact it ruined our university experience, for both of us. 00:59:53 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– it's love– it's so good– I love that. 00:59:55 **Jamie Roberts:** But Sarah's that challenge. So I'll be like– I'll go home, and I'll be like– right– we're going to go and– let's go and take the– let's go and buy that wreck of a house and do it up– because won't that be really fun? And– so– I'll say– that would be really fun– but have you thought about the fact that we have no time? So– we– is that really what we want to do? So– for me– it's– you can do anything, as long as you've got smart people around you, just pulling that brake a bit– really– just testing the hypothesis of– can you really– 01:00:19 **Aleksandra King:** Check in with– with more– maybe even some more stable people– just to make sure that you're– 01:00:25 **Jamie Roberts:** Sarah's definitely the stable person out of the– the two of us. 01:00:27 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– exactly. But– but careful who you're listening to– so it's a trusted– the trusted voice– versus maybe the– maybe the slightly– you know– the ones– 01:00:35 **Jamie Roberts:** It's really easy to poke other people, isn't it– why are you doing that? I– a lot of people– a lot of people don't want other people to be successful, because it makes them reflect on their life. So– when I meet startups– we don't do startup investing– but when I meet– when I meet startup founders, I'm always really honest– and I'll say– look– here's– here's why– I– that's great– that's not great– I want to be really honest with you– because loads of people will either just be really posit– your mum will tell you it's brilliant, and all your mates will tell you it's brilliant, because they don't want to hurt you– and other people will poke you, because they're a bit jealous that you're doing a thing that– that they're not. 01:01:11 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:01:11 **Jamie Roberts:** So you've really got to bring in some– some trusted advisers– mentors– 01:01:14 **Aleksandra King:** Trusted advisers– yeah– it's key– yeah. And even– well– if you are a business owner– speaking to people like yourself as well– getting sort of– just– can you maybe take a look at this– is this something that can grow– not poke– you know– but– but, like, properly look into it– and then that will give you– information is power– I totally believe that. 01:01:32 **Jamie Roberts:** So we do– so we have a full-time person at YFM called Christina– Christina's full-time role is managing our network of people. So– when something new comes in– the– the chances of us having invested in that exact space before are pretty slim. So when something new comes in, we review it– we think about it– and then we hit our network to understand it. So we are then reaching out to lots of smart people that we know– people we don't know, but we think look smart– and saying– can we just chat with you about this opportunity we've got– because we think it's interesting, and we think you'll really help us understand it. 01:02:04 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– definitely– information– that is power. Okay– we're going to slightly move into a different direction– just about money. I think– le– let's talk about money– because you think about money, I'm sure, very differently. So– how do you think about money? Do you have a good relationship with money? Do you– are you a– are you careful about what you spend– 01:02:23 **Jamie Roberts:** Very. 01:02:23 **Aleksandra King:** –or are you a spender– or– 01:02:26 **Jamie Roberts:** So– I grew up on a council estate. So– my mum and dad had– had very– what I would think of– normal working– working lives. There wasn't a lot of money knocking around– there was– you know– there was challenges– I was growing up in the 80s– I grew up in a steel town– so the– my parents weren't involved in the steelworks– but the– the town was decimated when the steelworks got closed. 01:02:45 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:02:46 **Jamie Roberts:** So there was a lot of pover– I don't know if it is poverty, versus today– but there was a lot of poverty. So– I've– my parents did a great job of making sure we had what we needed– and we had some of what we wanted– and there was– there was a good balance in– you know– I look back now and think– actually– it's right to not spoil your kids. But I've lived that way– and now I'm lucky enough that I get paid loads– more than– more than probably I should– and more than– more than we need– and that gives loads of choices. 01:03:18 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 01:03:18 **Jamie Roberts:** So I have loads– we have choices. 01:03:20 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– yeah– I like it. 01:03:20 **Jamie Roberts:** And I'm not– and it's funny, isn't it– it goes back to what I was saying earlier– I'm a bit embarrassed saying that. So we do very well. 01:03:27 **Aleksandra King:** Well played– you've– you've really– you know– you've worked your way to what you've– 01:03:30 **Jamie Roberts:** We've taken loads of risks– I've taken risks– Sarah's taken risks– we move– we– I was born in Corby– Sarah was born in the North West– we moved down to London– we knew nobody– we hated it for God knows how many years– we didn't know anybody– we couldn't really get into it– and now it's paying off– so that's great. In answer to your question– the relationship with money is– 01:03:51 **Aleksandra King:** Is it good? Is money good? Do you have a good relationship with money? 01:03:58 **Jamie Roberts:** Probably not. 01:03:59 **Aleksandra King:** Why? 01:04:00 **Jamie Roberts:** Because I– because I– because I believe I can always make more. So I don't waste– I don't waste– so I'm– so I'm penny– so– it drives me mad when the kids leave the lights on in the house– I walk around– I'm turning lights off all the time. 01:04:14 **Aleksandra King:** You're watching the pennies– yeah. 01:04:16 **Jamie Roberts:** Yeah– am I– yeah– I don't know– 01:04:18 **Aleksandra King:** Well– you must be, if you're switching the lights– 01:04:19 **Jamie Roberts:** I'm aware of the cost of stuff. So– like– when I– I got coffee before I came in here– and I was– is that really how much that is? And then I was– and I was– I was hungry– and I had some rice cakes– I– oh– they look good– but they're two pound– like– in my head, I'm actually questioning– do I want them enough for– for £2? Which is– and– and I got them– and then I had one– and it wasn't very nice– I didn't eat– but– so stuff like that I can get a bit caught up on. But then, when it comes to experiences, and doing fun things with the children– with my family– with– with Sarah– with friends– I'm– I don't– I sort of– I would say don't care– but I'm quite like– actually– if it's going to make it 10% better, let's spend a lot of money to do it. 01:05:03 **Aleksandra King:** Because you're such a money person– you're such a money person! Because basically– yes– that– you're– because the value– you see it in value terms. So the value of the experience– of the holiday with your family– with a time you will never get back– is valuable enough that you can justify the– the spend– which is way over what you would– anyone would consider, let's say– so– but it's in the value of that– for that– the trade– you're thinking about the trade all the time. 01:05:29 **Jamie Roberts:** Absolutely. So I'll spend a lot of money on holidays– and we stay in– in nice hotels– because– well– that's a– you know– I'm a bit of a– actually– if we're away, I want to stay somewhere really nice. I'm also the guy that walks to the shop to buy 12 cans of Pepsi Max– because in the shop down the road– I say– I mean– we were in Dubai earlier this year– and I'd walk about 20 minutes to the shop to buy 12 cans of Pepsi Max– because they were a pound each in the shop, and they were nine at the swimming pool– I just couldn't bring myself to– yeah. 01:05:59 **Aleksandra King:** So– you are– so the relationship with money is one where you're constantly thinking about value– and that's why you're doing the job that you're doing today– because you're constantly analysing– all the time– I can see that– even now– you're speaking to me– you're thinking– it's value– you're always looking at that. 01:06:15 **Jamie Roberts:** And my– and– and I don't treat it– I– I'm not– I'm getting better– but I can get it wrong with my friends and family– because– 01:06:23 **Aleksandra King:** You're too emotional? 01:06:24 **Jamie Roberts:** No– you– because I can behave like that with– cos I can be a bit like– well– I'll get dinner– because it's not– it's just fine– it doesn't– that– the cost of this dinner isn't material– and I really enjoy spending time with everybody. Nobody wants that– everybody wants to pay their own way, don't they? So I– I've got that wrong in the past. 01:06:41 **Aleksandra King:** All right– so what's– in your experience– the biggest mistake that ambitious people make? Can you– can you answer that question? Even something you've seen? 01:06:50 **Jamie Roberts:** I think people feel like they've got to present themselves in a way that's fit– I think people do– do and say what they think society wants from them. So– I work really, really hard– really hard– I think about work all the time– it impacts our family life– have to work quite hard to not be on my phone all the time– it– get a Saturday, and I'll get up and go– actually– you know what– I'll just do a bit of work– doesn't need doing– it's just because– I'm super lucky– I love what I'm do– I love what I– I love the people I do it with– so I can– that– it's a real grey line for me, between home and work– because I'm lucky enough that I love– I love it. Yeah– that– for me– working on a Saturday– I'm not– the working bit doesn't bother me– working on a Saturday, not spending time with my family, bothers me. I don't go to bed on a Sunday night worrying about going to work on a Monday– dare I say– sometimes I go to bed on a Sunday night really excited, because I'm going to work on the Monday. So I don't think people present that enough– because the current sort of thing is to be– you know– perfect. 01:07:54 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– yeah– everyone wants to present this– 01:07:56 **Jamie Roberts:** I– I achieve what I achieve by– I do it within set working hours– I'm there for every school– I'm there for pickups– I'm there for drop-offs– I work from home– I do this– I do that– I do the other. It's just impossible– nobody can do that– we're just going to blow ourselves up by pretending that you can. 01:08:12 **Aleksandra King:** You can't have it all– you just can't. 01:08:14 **Jamie Roberts:** No. And that is– I think my wife suffers from that more than I do– as– as a male– because nobody said to me– are you going to go back to work after Josh is born? No– nobody once ever said– are you going back to work once Josh is born– my– the first child– our first boy. You know– but Sarah– people said– Sarah, are you going back to work?– like– why didn't they say that to me– why– this– just all that stuff. And I– I think people can get a bit caught up in the– I've got to present myself in a certain way– and I– the one thing I can't do is just say– do you know what– I love what I do– and I work really hard– I work too many hours– I'm probably too stressed– I'm overweight– I don't exercise enough. We sort of think we've got to do the– I do yoga at 5– I have my green tea– I do meditation– I do my journal– CBD oils– whatever. I don't get it– I don't get why– I– I think successful people should be proud that they're successful– because they work really hard. 01:09:07 **Aleksandra King:** I mean– I've got someone coming on later as well– and we're going to talk about anxiety in great detail– but I think one of the themes is about this perfectionist culture– and these– you know– we– we do demand things of ourselves– and apparently one in five people suffer from this kind of– it's a form of anxiety– which is, like, perfectionism– and putting these things on– then you've always– like– playing up to this role– and it gets very stressful, because you can't maintain that– that level. You know– I mean– when it comes to me personally– I– you know– with Apprentice and everything– and I walked out– for– you know– my own reasons and things– I– yeah– I think that there's some things that are going to come out– you know– you can't– you have to be yourself– you can't live a life of being something you're not– you are going to– you know– like– it's just the way it is. 01:09:56 **Jamie Roberts:** I think weakness is– is really telling people– so– our chairman, Dave– who used to be our managing partner– he– I– I communicate about all my weaknesses– loads. So I did my– so my– 01:10:08 **Aleksandra King:** That's– a brave– 01:10:09 **Jamie Roberts:** But– but because I'm not– this will be odd for people– but I'm not perfect. So– my full-year review– our year ends March– we do my full-year review in April. So– I've just been made managing partner– and I sit down with our head of investor relations, and CFO– so the three of us run the business together– one of us has to be the managing partner– so that's me– but really, the three of us have– yeah– we work together. Yeah– so I said to the guys– why don't we do our reviews together? So– rather than me doing yours, Eamon, as Head of IR, and yours, Marcus, as CFO– why don't we do it together? And what I'd really like us to do is go and get feedback on everybody. So they went and got– I got feedback on Eamon– Marcus got feedback on– I can't remember– but anyway– they got a load of feedback from me– and we said– what we'll do is– we'll type it into Word documents, so you don't know who's– can't tie back to anyone– let's just give each other feedback– so– that'd be great. So they gave me this three-page– they talked me through this three-page Word document– that's quite hard– and I'm sort of sat there going– oh– that hurts. But it hurt because it did– because it was true– and it was people saying– well– actually– Jamie did this, which made me feel like this– and I– oh God– I don't– I really– I was like– I really want to know who that is, cos I want to go and tell them I'm sorry for how I made them feel– and of course you can't– that's not fair. So I had it– and then I was like– can I have the document– take the names out? So they gave me the document– and then I sent it around the business a week later– and just went– look– here's– here's the feedback on me– here's how that made me feel– and here's why– here are the things I'm doing to course-correct– and here's some stuff in that, that I'm– that's just probably me– and I hope it's not me– and I– I'll promise– I'll try– but– 01:11:37 **Aleksandra King:** Brave– brave. 01:11:38 **Jamie Roberts:** But– but isn't that interesting– work– that's what everyone says– but how is that brave? 01:11:42 **Aleksandra King:** I'm saying it is brave. 01:11:43 **Jamie Roberts:** A load of people that I really like– and I– I'm really fond of everybody at– here's– here's– you– you know this about me already– here's me telling you that I now know too– like– is that brave? 01:11:55 **Aleksandra King:** I think it is brave. I think you've got to– you've got to handle it– you've got to be able to handle it. So– hearing criticism of yourself is difficult– so you have to handle it– and then– how do you handle it– you know– are you going to– are you the sort of person that's able to make the change– 01:12:11 **Jamie Roberts:** Yep. 01:12:12 **Aleksandra King:** –you know– how flexible are you? 01:12:13 **Jamie Roberts:** So I had a great– I had a great mentor– sorry– I had a great mentor, years and years ago– guy called Simon Palmer– it was when I worked for the bank– and he– he was sort of like my– he was a grade or two above me– but in the same business– but in a different team. And he– I got some really bad feedback one year-end– I was awesome, back then– and thought I was awesome– I thought I was better than I was, back then– 01:12:34 **Aleksandra King:** Oh– you did– 01:12:34 **Jamie Roberts:** And he was– yeah– and I had a bad year-end review– and I pro– I reacted pretty badly– visibly– in the office– and he just grabbed me, and took me to a waiting room– this is going to define your career– how you react. So– how– no one– you– you're feeling hurt and attacked– they haven't given you that feedback to hurt and attack you– they're giving you that feedback cos that's real. How you choose to accept– so you could say they're– you could say– everybody else is wrong– and that's okay– cos you can believe that– and that could be your truth– or– you can go away and reflect. So he's like– I want you to leave the office– just go for a walk– come back– you can't come back for 2 hours– and then come back in two hours, once you've calmed down– and just walk– the entire two hours. And of course– by the time I'd come back and reflected on it, I was like– actually– yeah– that feedback is– agree with all of it. But– you can't be– quite accurate– you can't tell people they don't feel the way they feel– so it is real. 01:13:25 **Aleksandra King:** It's absolute gold– I mean– I– I do love it– I think it's gold– but yeah– it's how you– what you deal with– yeah. 01:13:31 **Jamie Roberts:** You need to be pretty arrogant, right– it's back to the founders– back to founders we meet– and you sort of go– for me– people– I will exude this confidence– but for me, that confidence is– I'm really happy and comfortable in who I am– and I know I'm not perfect. So– isn't it the most generous thing in the world, when someone takes the risk to tell the managing partner– here are the things you're not good at? I'm like– wow– they've done the risky thing– I should be grateful to receive. 01:13:57 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– I– I get it– and I think it is– it is a– it is like a little gift. Because– I– yeah– I would love– so I do sometimes think– you know– I do these podcasts and everything– and then I– and I have my business– you know– running the marketing company– and then I think– how do I– I sit opposite you– how do you then take me– how am I coming across? I would love to know all the– let's just talk about– can you fill out this question about exactly how I've come across– how– 01:14:22 **Jamie Roberts:** No– no– but even if we did it– but it's just so interesting– even if we did it, we'd still be nice– because we haven't built– until you can trust somebody. Because– and by trust, I don't mean– because I think you're going to attack me if I say something you don't like– I want to trust that, if I gave you that feedback, you'd be okay– you'll survive– because nobody wants to hurt– 01:14:38 **Aleksandra King:** I think it's incredibly important– especially when you're starting off, and everything– and you're learning– or in a new industry– or in a new market– or in a new role– whatever it might be– and if someone gives you feedback– and you know that you've done something wrong– like– you'll know– you will know. I– I do take it really seriously– you know– like– I– I take it– I'm going to admit– I will take it personally– but it's good– because if I take it personally, I will personally work so hard to change it– because it stings so bad– that I– that I– I like it– like– I like modifying myself from the sting– the– the sort of– the– the passion of the sting of it– the stronger it is– the more that I know– myself as well– that that person is so completely right– I've got to change this particular thing– and that's the way to improve. And it's almost like– can everyone just give you that sort of feedback– to– would be so much better. 01:15:28 **Jamie Roberts:** So we're putting in a– so much– a tool– in the– it'll be live in YFM in a couple of weeks– for 360-degree feedback– by software. So actually– everybody gets to just fill it in– but the only person who sees it is the individual– and if they choose to share that with their line manager, or their mentor– that's awesome– there's no need to– it's just a tool for those who want– and not everybody has to use it. If you want to use it– because you'd value the– the feedback– then use it– but it's for you– nobody else can see it– nobody knows you've used it. You ask the people that you want for the feedback– and then they can provide it to you in a super-cool– they type stuff in– and it then gets jumbled up, so that you can't work out language and stuff– so it is true, anonymised feedback. And I'm– I– of the 65 people in YFM today, I probably could tell you the 30 that I know will absolutely get that out on the first day– because they want the– they've got the hunger for the– for the learning, and the improvement. 01:16:22 **Aleksandra King:** Well– again– it comes back to the way that you view value– and I'm going to say value– not money– it's the way that you view value. And I'm really flattered, honoured and delighted that you've seen this as a valuable session as well– to come here– to give your time. 01:16:38 **Jamie Roberts:** It's definitely been valuable for me. 01:16:39 **Aleksandra King:** I know people are going to definitely find it interesting– so yeah– I think– for me– it's been incredible– thanks for coming on. 01:16:45 **Jamie Roberts:** Thank you. 01:16:46 **Aleksandra King:** Thank you. ## Follow Aleksandra - [Instagram](https://instagram.com/king.aleksandra) - [X](https://x.com/aleksandrabking) - [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/aleksandraking) - [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@AleksandraKing) - [Aleksandra's Inner Circle](https://laylo.com/aleksandraking) Business and collaborations: [aleksandraking.com](https://aleksandraking.com) | [aleksandra@aleksandraking.com](mailto:aleksandra@aleksandraking.com) *The views expressed by guests are their own and do not reflect those of Aleksandra, the podcast, or its producers. This podcast is for entertainment only.*