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# “They Are Not Extraterrestrial”: The Interdimensional Theory of UFOs & The Grey Agenda | Philip Kinsella
- URL: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/they-are-not-extraterrestrial-the-interdimensional-theory-of-ufos-the-grey-agenda-philip-kins/
- Published: 2026-01-14T17:15:00.000Z
- Updated: 2026-08-24T10:06:27.000Z
- Description: From a 1989 abduction account to mediumship and UAP cover-ups: Philip Kinsella challenges what you know about consciousness and human origins.
- Author: Elliott King
- Tags: Philip Kinsella, episode, Season 3, #ep-1

**The sceptic sits down with the believer.**

Award-winning psychic medium, UFO researcher and author [Philip Kinsella](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/philip-kinsella/) joins host and producer [Aleksandra King](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/aleksandra-king/) on The BEYOND Podcast for an episode that challenges everything you know about consciousness, human origins and life, from a 1989 abduction account to the secrets of mediumship and the Pentagon's UAP cover-ups.

![Philip Kinsella in a white shirt and striped tie and host Aleksandra King in conversation on the BEYOND set, seated on yellow sofas either side of a round wooden table](https://storage.ghost.io/c/5e/74/5e74ba0c-c249-4586-8ce5-03deb56fdf93/content/images/2026/08/Philip-Kinsella-Podcast.png)

## Episode summary

Philip begins with what he calls the singularity, his childhood encounter with an orb, then walks through the 1989 abduction account, analysing the mechanics of moving through matter, and his soulless theory: that the Greys may be biological robots rather than living beings.

The conversation widens to the God force versus genetic engineering and the ancient-aliens question, the mechanics of CE-5 summoning protocols, and the economics of secrecy, why he believes the truth stays hidden.

It closes at the boundary of his two worlds: mirror gazing, the science of afterlife communication, and his view that the brain is mainly a transmitter and receiver of consciousness rather than its source.

> “The brain is just mainly the transmitter and receiver of consciousness, rather like a mobile phone.”– *Philip Kinsella*

![Philip Kinsella gesturing as he makes a point at the microphone during his BEYOND interview](https://storage.ghost.io/c/5e/74/5e74ba0c-c249-4586-8ce5-03deb56fdf93/content/images/2026/08/Philip-Kinsella-BeyondTheBoardroom.png)

## Key takeaways

- Philip's case is that the phenomenon is interdimensional rather than extraterrestrial.
- His soulless theory holds that the Greys behave like biological robots rather than living beings.
- He frames the cover-up as economics: secrecy persists because the truth is expensive.
- Mediumship and UFO research meet in his account of consciousness, with the brain as receiver rather than source.
- The episode stages a genuine sceptic-versus-believer conversation rather than a soft-ball interview.

## Key chapters

| Chapter                                                              | Timestamp                                                    |
| -------------------------------------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------ |
| Intro: the sceptic versus the believer                               | [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E)         |
| “The singularity”: Philip's childhood encounter with the orb         | [02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E&t=135s)  |
| The 1989 abduction: analysing the mechanics of moving through matter | [12:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E&t=770s)  |
| The “soulless” theory: are Greys actually biological robots?         | [21:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E&t=1290s) |
| The “God force” versus genetic engineering                           | [32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E&t=1930s) |
| Summoning craft: the mechanics of CE-5 protocols                     | [41:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E&t=2480s) |
| The economics of secrecy: why the truth stays hidden                 | [50:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E&t=3045s) |
| Mirror gazing, and the science of afterlife communication            | [58:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E&t=3495s) |

## The guest

Philip Kinsella is an award-winning psychic medium, UFO researcher and author, known for work on consciousness, the afterlife and non-human intelligence. His full background is on his guest profile.

[Philip Kinsella's guest profile](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/philip-kinsella/)

## Where to listen

- [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtMvUCF683E)
- [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-with-aleksandra-king/id1786173140)
- [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/0haFQYUTnEn0fpr0LQYlhH)
- [YouTube Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=MPSPPL3iQHE-qteJING9jXVVuVUdDa-9qqer7J)
- [RSS feed](https://anchor.fm/s/10464b2ac/podcast/rss)

## Related reading

Read the companion insight on the site: [Philip Kinsella: Exploring UFOs, Alien Abductions and the Afterlife](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/insights/philip-kinsella-exploring-ufos-alien-abductions-and-the-afterlife/).

## Transcript

#### Read the full episode transcript

### Cold open

*Produced trailer montage before the interview. The first-person clip lines do not recur verbatim later in the episode, so attribution is best-effort– see Notes.*

00:00:00 **\[Speaker?\]:** I woke up and I couldn't move. There was someone standing at the end of my bed. I heard a voice calling my name– but the person was already dead. That object in the sky didn't move like anything human.

00:00:21 **\[Narrator\]:** These aren't stories from a horror film. They're the experiences Philip Kinsella has spent decades investigating. Philip is an award-winning psychic medium, UFO researcher and author, known for work on consciousness, the afterlife and non-human intelligence. He's documented hundreds of cases, listening to people most of us would dismiss– until patterns start repeating. People across the world describe the same shadow beings, the same encounters, the same questions. Step into Philip's world, and decide for yourself what's really going on.

### Interview

00:01:18 **Aleksandra King:** Philip, lovely to have you with us on Beyond the Boardroom. This is a new one for us, I must say– I've never had an award-winning UFO expert, psychic medium, award-winning guru on the show before. It's a subject that's truly out there, but it's interesting– we're fascinated, absolutely fascinated, with the paranormal. We're fascinated with aliens, we're fascinated with all these things that we can't explain, and I thought I'd get the expert in– well, "expert"– to talk all about it.

00:01:54 **Philip Kinsella:** I have to thank you so much for inviting me on your wonderful show. And "expert"– well, we don't know what we're dealing with, but we certainly have theories, and that's what I've been working on throughout my life– trying to put parts of the theoretical content of what's going on together. And yes, if I say unfortunately for me– maybe people will see that differently– I had been touched by what we call the UFO phenomena, or elements of that, and that then led into the psychic department. And I wondered, you know– here is the guy that's studying ufology, and had an experience, and now talks to the dead– I thought my reputation, such as it was, would go straight down.

00:02:41 **Aleksandra King:** Okay, okay. Well, let's talk about– let's talk a bit about your credentials. So you've studied ufology. There is such a thing?

00:02:50 **Philip Kinsella:** There is indeed, yes. I'm connected with many renowned researchers, not just here in England but also the United States of America–

00:02:59 **Aleksandra King:** Wow.

00:02:59 **Philip Kinsella:** And the main emphasis of ufology is– and had been– a taboo subject. The media cartel, for instance, actually made out that it's all a load of old rubbish– that we were just chasing shadows. But when you have an experience that defies logic, that defies reality, I had to ask myself the question of whether or not I was deluded, or lying, or the system that we serve was lying. And that's what then led me into the investigations into this rather taboo subject, which now is out there. And we know that there is something– we don't know what it is, we don't know where the force comes from, but we know that it's out there. And my modus operandi is to find out what that is, and also what we are as a human species.

00:03:49 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So many people are fascinated in the whole subject of the unknown, you know– so everything from aliens, and all the Star Wars movies that have been produced about that– aliens– to, you know, strange unexplained things happening, like a sixth sense, to ghosts and everything like that. But you can study this stuff– you can study it. So can you explain to us what sort of qualifications you have, to be placed in this position of being the right person to investigate all this paranormal activity and aliens?

00:04:27 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah, yeah, sure. After 35 years of experiences that truly changed my world, I investigated UFOs and psychic phenomena. Led first of all with regards to the awards– I was awarded the Portsmouth award for mediumship of the year in 2008, and I was astounded by that. I was like, wow– I've been awarded for the work that I'm doing– and that was all set by judges, and very harshly too– not just like most people think, oh, clairvoyance– it's like bringing your grandma through, and she loved cooking and cleaning– no, they want evidence-based mediumship. So I got the award in 2008, and then I was awarded for my UFO research– dedication to the truth– in 2022\. So this one was an accumulation of theoretical models and research that I've been working on, to find out what it is that we're dealing with in terms of UFOs and psychic phenomena, life after death, consciousness, the great beyond– those areas that people find fascinating. And just recently, on the 25th of August of this year, I was also presented with the London and South East Prestige Award, which I collected from London, and that's to do with my clairvoyance of the year. So I've had two awards for my clairvoyance and one for my UFO research, and the UFO research was for dedication to the truth of ufology. So that's where my awards were.

00:05:56 **Aleksandra King:** And ufology is something that you could actually study and learn?

00:05:59 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh yes, absolutely– case histories, and also working with other prominent researchers. This led on to writing some extraordinary books, the first of which was Reaching for the Divine– which, of all things– I was involved with UFO research to begin with, but it was my psychic book, Reaching for the Divine, that was the first that was taken by a publisher, back many years ago. And then that led on to another UFO book called Belief– bridging the gap between the psychic and UFO phenomena– because I believe that there were elements to be made there. And then I got involved with Rendlesham– the UFO case in Rendlesham here in England, very famous for the 1980 event, with Colonel Charles Halt, who I've met– and that led to a book called Sky Crash Throughout Time, and subsequent to that there were a number of other UFO books and psychic books that followed after that.

00:06:51 **Aleksandra King:** It's interesting– I find it fascinating. So you're an expert in the field– lots of books, you've studied it, you're in a network of all these UFO– chases, I would call them in a way– chasers. I mean, someone's got to do it. You've got something unexplained in the sky– someone's got to figure it out.

00:07:08 **Philip Kinsella:** Well, if someone tells you– certainly the system that we serve– that there are no such things as UFOs– now UAPs– it's strange that they changed the acronym for something– unidentified aerial phenomena, which brings that more closer to earthbound than UFO, unidentified flying object. So, you know, I'm like one of these ghostbusters and UFO chasers– it's like, if someone tells me that they don't exist, I've got to find out whether or not they do or not.

00:07:36 **Aleksandra King:** You're a real-life ghostbuster, real-life UFO chaser– I love it. I have literally never had someone like you in this– in this space, for Beyond the Boardroom. It's fascinating, it's fascinating. Okay, let's go back a little bit. What was your first experience that made you realise there's something beyond the physical world that we see? What happened?

00:07:59 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes, absolutely. Well, I have an identical twin brother called Ronald– he's an artist and author as well– and we had been staying with our maternal grandmother in Tachbrook, Feltham, Middlesex, and we used to spend a lot of time in their big house. And one summer's afternoon, going on to evening, we're out the backyard– back garden– and in broad daylight there was a silver orb, about the size of a football, that came through the broad daylight and towards where we were– and this has been documented and recorded– and it hung over our grandmother's head, about where the second-floor windows were, because their house was three storeys high. And we were shocked– as twins, we're like, you know– if anyone had said, oh, that's a UFO– in those days you didn't consider a UFO would be that small, the size of a football. It was truly extraordinary. It made no sound, there was no communication– it just hung there. And when we'd asked our grandmother what that was, she said, oh look, the fairies have come to take a closer look at us. But our grandmother was psychic, and I think that what she was doing is trying to allay our fears to a greater reality. She didn't seem to flinch, she didn't seem fazed by it, and that's always confused both my brother and I.

00:09:13 **Aleksandra King:** You know what– I'm going to– this is going to sound really freaky– my husband and his brother saw a similar silver thing, which they at the time explained as a statue head, when they were in the room– and it sort of flew outside, and they both saw it. And to this day they talk about it as– "thing"– remember that thing that we saw? Yes– this is weird.

00:09:32 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't– and it's not ball lightning– because if you go back, it's possible that what we were witnessing was something that was reported back in 1945, during the war– the foo fighters, which were witnessed by Allied aircraft– that would accompany– these balls of light that were silver, and then would glow in dark, would follow Allied aircraft. So we're not sure– maybe there's some kind of reconnaissance objects– we're not sure, we don't know. But that was the beginning of the levels of high strangeness for me and my brother. And I was like, that is really weird.

00:10:05 **Aleksandra King:** That's weird. It made an impact on you, and you wanted to investigate.

00:10:08 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah.

00:10:10 **Aleksandra King:** So you weren't always open to this, were you? It was that moment that kind of triggered something in your mind.

00:10:15 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah. I mean, you have to be careful– because, you know, I was interested in space, Doctor Who and all that type of thing, and what happens later is that the media will say, oh, it's because they're interested in science fiction. And my brother and I have written children's novels, and a science fiction novel as well, endorsed by David Saperstein, who's the author of Cocoon– they made that into a film in 1985, a Hollywood smash-hit movie. So you can't win. But when you were touched by the singularity, it changes you. There's something deep inside that alters, and you're like, well, hang on a minute– can I operate in this world? And we've been told this world functions on a normal level of material– you know, that's how it is, materiality– and it's like, no– there's these things called UFOs, and at that moment I wanted to find out what they were. And I believe also it's possible that when anyone is touched by the singularity– the wonderment, if that's want of a better word– it's like a hitchhiker effect, and it seems to connect with you. You're changed. It's the same– if I may just say here– with regards to how you feel about something or someone: it changes your perception of your reality.

00:11:29 **Aleksandra King:** Gosh.

00:11:29 **Philip Kinsella:** So this phenomena altered my reality– and where I was, you know, operating on a level where everything was fine and cool, and I got on with my life– and you're presented with that when you're a kid, like something from Doctor Who– and it was real. And that was it– the turning point– that's it.

00:11:49 **Aleksandra King:** Okay, all right. But then you start publicly speaking about these phenomena– you know, you speak about aliens, you speak about all the things– what does that do to your credibility? How do people treat you– seriously, do they not treat you seriously? I mean, if someone says, oh, there's an alien– you know, there was an alien flying above my head– with my husband, you know, when he says, I saw something– yes, you were a child, you know, you probably saw– you know, maybe you interpreted something. But you're right– he has been forever affected, because he adores the whole subject of aliens, and he was obsessed with sci-fi movies and will never stop watching them. It's as if it's a– I don't know how to explain it. But how do people– how do you find people treat you when you speak about these subjects?

00:12:30 **Philip Kinsella:** To begin with, it was very difficult. The highlight of the UFO research occurred in 1989\. We lived in the village of Marston Moretaine, which was a small village, and I had what most people would commonly refer to as an alien abduction–

00:12:47 **Aleksandra King:** Okay.

00:12:48 **Philip Kinsella:** But it happened on a different level of integration. Most people think that when you're abducted by an alien, they come through with their wispy UFO and they drag you away– and, like in the movies, yes– but there were two parts to this that were quite interesting: one was physical and one was non-physical. One part of it was where I was being taken through solid matter– I'm not going to go into that, because that's a very long-winded area, and it has also been documented with regards to that case. But this led me to investigating what are we dealing with. We hear so much about the Greys, don't we– the small beings with the big eyes. I was wondering, well, what are they? Where do they come from? Why do they appear so different from us? Why did the system tell us that they don't exist– and yet more and more people were coming forward? I had to also be very careful– you have to be very careful, because when you're dealing with subject matters of not just UFO research but also alien abductions, you have to know that you're dealing with someone that has clarity of mind– and not stating the obvious, like saying, oh, I claim to have had this happen to me– but some people, you know, are like– you know– they're away with the fairies. But what my research has led me into understanding, on a deeper level, of what we may be dealing with, with regards to abductions and Greys– and my experience back in 1989 opened a whole new area, not just within UFO research but also to do with the human psyche, and what we were. You see, we tend to categorise things and put them in boxes: life after death here, UFOs there, aliens there, cryptids there. And I'm like– well, when you started to investigate them, you're thinking, well, where are they all? I mean, I've got a joke here– I do say with other researchers, you tell me where they're all hanging out, in a pub, and I'll go down and I'll have a chat with them– find out what the problem is. But the phenomena is very clever, because it secretes itself within the shadows, and it's– it's almost– when it comes in, it's like, you know, we're not able to have any form of tangible evidence, other than photographic, and occasionally–

00:14:57 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So when you say the alien abduction thing– I have to struggle with that a little bit, because I think, really, alien abduction– like, that's another level– you'd be taken away.

00:15:07 **Philip Kinsella:** That's right.

00:15:08 **Aleksandra King:** But then at the same time, when you're talking about this, and you think about things in the shadows, and things that you don't see– just because you don't see them doesn't mean they're not there. And if you think about some of the most dangerous things in the world that we encounter– viruses– well, you definitely don't see them, do you?

00:15:23 **Philip Kinsella:** Exactly.

00:15:24 **Aleksandra King:** Unless you've got a very, very special lens. So– yes.

00:15:27 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah. I have to say also that it's interesting– I think we're probably dealing with something that operates on varied levels of dimensional reality. You see, back in the 1960s and 70s, if anyone had mentioned to you about UFOs being interdimensional in nature– oh no, they couldn't accept that. If they believed in it, most people thought that it would be a structured craft coming from another planet. Now, through our understanding of space, it tells us a different story. So these objects– the way that they come across– they exhibit characteristics of interdimensional activity, which means they come into our space very quickly and go out. And this is interesting– because where we are primarily as human beings, we're physical, on a physical planet, and these beings come in perhaps from a higher level of dimensional awareness. I always say it's rather like your mobile phone: you've got the hardware, but that's not the phone– the phone is the signal. You can't see it, you don't know what information is in it until it hits the translator, and then you have your information. We as human beings work in the same way– obviously on a higher level. Where people say, well, you know, when you're dead, you're dead– okay, that's fine, if you believe that. But we understand also that there's an area of conscious survival, and this also tells us that not just survival beyond this physical realm of reality– people call it heaven, I'm not calling it that– but this opens up a whole can of worms with those other interdimensional levels of reality.

00:17:03 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– we're going to get into those levels.

00:17:05 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah, sure, yeah.

00:17:06 **Aleksandra King:** Have you ever doubted your own experiences? Have you ever questioned them?

00:17:10 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes, absolutely. To begin with– not in the sense of, did I wonder if that really happened to me– yes, it did happen to me. Doubted, because of the ridicule that I had to go through. I have never once asked to be interviewed anywhere. When I had the initial alien abduction in 1989– interestingly, my brother had one seven years before I did, and the only one that we each remember– there may have been other ones– and we're seven minutes apart. I'm not saying that because they were seven years apart, that's got anything to do with being identical twins– his experience was very different from mine. But yes, I did– because the system that we serve, within the media cartel– when you're being honest and straightforward, and saying to people, look, this is what happened to me, I will report exactly how it happened, what happened– there was an embarrassing part to that as well, too, within the experience– and sure, you know, television got in touch and said, come on board– you know, we've got a panel of people that want to, you know, talk to you and find out what's happened– and then, when you go on the programmes, I found that I was being slated. It was just like a circus. I mean, attitudes have changed now, because our understanding of the phenomena has changed– we're talking about back in the '90s– and the way that we as human beings see our reality does go through constant changes, and I think within ufology– the study of UFOs– the same applies there. So as researchers, our understanding has changed from the nuts-and-bolts syndrome that we thought back in the 1960s and '70s– and now look at us now: we're looking about quantum mechanics, quantum modelling, interdimensional levels of reality– far different from back then. But so, yes, I did– I did doubt. Sometimes, you know, people were saying, you're lying, you've made it all up– and you're like, well, no, I'm not lying, I'm not making it all up– and because you were subjugated, because you were trodden down by people who were convincing you of their reality– in the end I thought, no, I'm sorry, I can't deal with that.

00:19:27 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. Okay– so did that lead you to want to investigate more?

00:19:31 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh yes, yeah.

00:19:32 **Aleksandra King:** So it actually motivated you.

00:19:34 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah– especially with the whole idea of not just UFOs– because when you're dealing with UFO research, people will say, well, is it the crafts that you're studying, or is it also the aliens? Well, to be honest with you, we don't know who or what is piloting these crafts– but we have a lot of reports of so-called Greys and other beings. But it was interesting for me to primarily go into the Greys, because they offered more in terms of patterns– in terms of people having experiences– rather like people who have had a near-death experience, and when they come back there are patterns that connect. There are patterns.

00:20:10 **Aleksandra King:** Absolutely– that's what we're looking for, yeah. And if you think about how vast, you know, our universe is, and you think about how it carries on, and on and on, and there's infinite– I mean, how many– how– when do you even draw the line? How many planets are there in total?

00:20:26 **Philip Kinsella:** Absolutely.

00:20:27 **Aleksandra King:** What are the chances of there being other humans exactly like us– maybe just slightly different– or some other things–

00:20:33 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah.

00:20:33 **Aleksandra King:** Somewhere.

00:20:34 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes– the beginning– and, you know, this is crazy to think– like– there have been a few occasions where my mind has been stretched to the point where I'm thinking, I need to hold on to this. And when people say, I don't believe, I'm like, that's absolutely fine– but first of all– and it's a good, wonderful question– look out there. What is that? What are we contained in, you know, within the gravitational forces that's holding everything together? Nope– can't see it, don't want to look at it. But there's either an edge or infinity– even if it does loop round, as most cosmologists think, with the universe– it's like a doughnut shape– there has to be some kind of border, because that's how we see things.

00:21:13 **Aleksandra King:** But there must be– sorry– there must be something beyond the beyond.

00:21:16 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh yes, absolutely.

00:21:18 **Aleksandra King:** And beyond that. And someone or something– that's the whole concept of God here– if you get rid– someone must have orchestrated this, someone must have created this, someone must– it can't just be on its own– there must have been a plan. It's all– when you start thinking like that, your mind just can never stop, because there's no answer, and it will carry on. But religion does find answer– this is the thing about, you know, this whole subject of alien and the paranormal– then you've also got religion, you know, which says– you know, it has its things that it says– and, yeah– it's quite difficult– science and religion– always arguing.

00:21:52 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes. Well, religion is good if it doesn't control and harm people– but religion stagnates any form of development or moving forward. Their promise is based purely on faith– which is fine, but it doesn't get you anywhere. They will say to you, you're dealing with the devil– when you're the– the UFOs and aliens are all devils. And when it comes to science– science is progressively changing, it's always altering its perspective of reality. So you have those two at loggerheads with one another– and I believe there's a fusion of the two. And certainly I think that the way that we're seeing this, in terms of not just aliens and UFOs, but what the heck are we? Where did we come from? And when I got involved with UFO research, this opened up a can of worms. It wasn't just, oh, there's the man that's looking at flying saucers– this opened up a can of worms for me, it really did, on a deeper, personal level, of what we were, where did we come from. And you have two versions– one religious and one scientific– both of them didn't make any sense to me.

00:23:02 **Aleksandra King:** So what's your version? Who are we, then?

00:23:06 **Philip Kinsella:** It's possible– most of the– and this is quite controversial– but most of the religious books that we have today, that most people hold– the holy books– are translations from ancient codices, and a lot of those codices have– and are still being– discovered, most notably in 1945 in Egypt. And one of those was the Nag Hammadi– and, of course, texts which described more in terms of our genesis than what the original Hebrew Bible tells us. So I don't think we're going to know– but in those codices it tells us that there were gods, not a god. They talk primarily of a force– of a god force that we're all part of. And that god force created Aeons– angels– that separated, and one of those Aeons was a goddess called Sophia, who descended even further and created matter. And she in turn created Yaldabaoth, which is Satan– and people have this idea of Satan with a man with a red suit walking around with a fork. She created the Archons. And back in the codices, it tells you something that most people don't want to look at: that the gods had created us through genetic engineering– and this is what– and what are we doing today? So the Adam and Eve, from my understanding, was a remodification of part alien, part hominid– earth and sky being– and they were allowed to reproduce. So, you know, if you was to say to someone, look, is there any possibility– to science and religion, both of you– that we had come from what we would call extraterrestrials, that were probably like us? Oh no, no, we can't have that. So which version are we having? Darwin's theory, that is very, very loosely based on information and genetics that cannot– and not easily– be replicated through life– and then, of course, the religious interpretation, where Adam and Eve just suddenly appeared. No– if you're fine with me, I've got to dig really deep, and it's like, that is not satisfactory. There's got to be an explanation about who and what we are. And this opened up more in terms of the spirit– in terms of the story from the ancient codices and what's happening today. So the Archons– and it is known within Hebrew texts about the fallen angels, that mated with beautiful females and then created the Nephilim– the giants– horrid creatures– and I wondered whether or not this war had been started from those fallen gods, because Sophia the goddess had then endowed the human with the spirit– and not her first creation, the Archons. So this theme– but we can't prove this– what can be proven– but it just seems strange that science and religion will– nope, you're a heretic, we believe this– and science is like, no. And it's like– but we haven't made any headway, for goodness' sake. We don't even know our true origins– where we came from. The Aborigines– they have their stories– they probably know a lot more than we do. The Egyptians themselves also were trying to get off the planet– they knew that the pyramids– the Great Pyramid of Cheops was a gateway to the star system Orion. And the system that we serve today– it just feels like, well, what's going on– and why are we no nearer in truly establishing about what we– our– and our genesis, and of those in the past? Do you see what I mean?

00:26:37 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, yeah, I do. And I definitely agree that, you know, the Egyptians were fascinated with stars and astrology–

00:26:43 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh yes, they were– completely obsessed with it.

00:26:45 **Aleksandra King:** And we are too, you know– we find this all interesting, and there will be a lot of us that have, you know, have a religion and also believe in science, you know– and also probably, on some level, believe that there's possibly something out there, you know. A lot of– a lot of just everyday people will probably have that spectrum of thinking.

00:27:10 **Philip Kinsella:** Absolutely– and I have great respect for anyone who has their structured belief system– that is very, very important. It's when people become destructive or controlling. I mean, I've been told that I'm a Satanist– I've been told by one child that was with the Christian church that I am a servant of Satan. I mean, I can deal with that. But what I am, hopefully, is a very practical individual that is peeling away the myth and trying to find the facts of what's going on. It is absolutely fascinating to know there is so much more to what we represent. And I'll just say here– I know, without skipping forward here– you have people in this life that you love, and people say they don't believe– okay– and the moment that you lose someone that you love, you come back and you tell me there's nothing. Because there is a deeper part within us. Oh, I'm strong, I'm this, I'm that– and it's like, yeah, well, you know, I wouldn't wish that upon anyone, but you wait until you lose someone, and then you ask the question: where have they gone? Is this all just waste? Are we all just an accident– chaos? No.

00:28:22 **Aleksandra King:** No way. There's definitely more to it– I mean–

00:28:24 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh, absolutely– of course, you know.

00:28:25 **Aleksandra King:** So I do– I am religious– I'm a Roman Catholic, and my parents would probably think, what are you doing– but, you know, it's interesting to hear other perspectives, and to, you know– and the whole idea was– I was saying– the universe, the vastness of everything– how could there not be other things in other places? I just– that– I can't– the logic for me is just–

00:28:50 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes. Well, when you look at the earth, yeah, and where it sits– and we're told, no, we're the only intelligent species– and you think, hang on just a minute– just a moment. We have three objects that slung through to our system already– one of the three– 3I/ATLAS– and, you know, already we're getting a blank screen on that. It's like the system doesn't want us to know there's anything out there.

00:29:12 **Aleksandra King:** Okay, there is something else to discuss. When you were talking about the things that we can't see, you know– so the way that these aliens or extraterrestrials, whatever, communicate in the space, you know, in that– and also viruses– the way that they communicate with each other. You know, we know in Covid that when there were, you know, vaccines against certain viruses– ones far away, that haven't had the vaccine, would start to mould and change–

00:29:38 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes.

00:29:39 **Aleksandra King:** Almost reading that there's been a change here– and they're not even there, but they're kind of talking. So that's weird. And also I have to say that I've had so many, many times where I have this intuition– a sense– I think of someone– it's a client, it's a person– they phone me, they message me minutes later.

00:30:02 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes.

00:30:02 **Aleksandra King:** And that just happens. Yeah– what's that?

00:30:06 **Philip Kinsella:** Well, if you look at manifestation programmes– it's trying to, you know– I want this and I want that– and, oh, I've thought of someone and they've turned up, or they've rung– or, I've been, you know– I've been thinking about this and it's happened. So I believe that the human consciousness– it's been conditioned, it's been programmed since birth– and this is another topic here– where the system has kind of like programmed the general public to believe that we are just self-serving automatons– to serve the system, and not ourselves– or utilise a greater part of mind, as we call it– because the brain is just merely the transmitter and receiver of consciousness, rather like your mobile phone. And I always make people laugh and say, you've got all these apps on your phone– and a few of them– and some people like to use a few, and some people like to use a lot of them– but with here– this is where the real magic begins. This is what we are. And within certain religious ideologies, going back in the past, anyone that dared to use the mind outside the box was drowned or burnt– it was an example to the state, to the system– to stay in check, in line. But who's to say that those at the top aren't actually using their minds to create their own magic– and away from the public? And this is another area of research that we've been looking into. So we're all gods and goddesses– we are all God, we're all part of that. Heaven is within, not without– anything without is unattainable, because it has to come from within. So we are a vessel of that pure divinity– we are part of the spark of the God consciousness, or the Goddess consciousness– why does it have to be a man?– because God, I believe, is androgynous, and we're maybe all part of that connection on some level. And we're all connected– every single one of us– are beautiful energy beings. We have the potential for so much. But my argument is– and I do joke, and I say, why on earth will we come down here, and then have our minds wiped, and then go through this experience? And I've got some theories about that. It's possible that, you know, something's occurring from the one that we've separated from, temporarily, and going through an experience here– and it's almost like, you know, not a judging, but kind of like a selection process, I think, while we're here on this earth. I think earth was a wonderful project– they called it Eden– and it's got a bit Pete Tong, let's put it that way. Things haven't gone quite the way that it was meant to go– let's put it that way– because I believe that the system could have been hijacked by another, altogether darker force. And, you know, people get serious– but it's true. If you go back into the past, it's always been about good and evil, hasn't it? It's always been about, you know, those evil beings, as they call them. You know– so I wonder, whether or not, myself personally, that that force is still in operations behind the scenes, that we haven't yet seen– and that's another story entirely.

00:33:06 **Aleksandra King:** I don't want to think of myself as an experiment– but yes, you know– it's– yeah–

00:33:11 **Philip Kinsella:** Who knows, who knows. With the human experiment, I think perhaps, from the divine, that it was a new way of seeing how consciousness could separate from the one, and have its own individuality– its own expression of creativity within this life, as human beings.

00:33:31 **Aleksandra King:** And if you think about our genesis– the way that the whole thing– it's incredible–

00:33:37 **Philip Kinsella:** It is, absolutely.

00:33:38 **Aleksandra King:** You can't even– you would never be able to really replicate that, you know, unless you're a god or goddess. But–

00:33:44 **Philip Kinsella:** Something– I think something's gone wrong– and not from want of the god or the goddess– the power. I think another force has kind of like come in, and tried to alter or change that. And in our life today– in this world today– you can see what's happening– transhumanism, or, you know, wanting to try and make us more robotic in nature– and anything to do with God, anything to do with goodness, with the spirit– it's almost as if the system wants that pushed out. And I– no– because we're all part of the divine. So I've always believed there's a war going on, and maybe this could account for a lot of what we're seeing in terms of the paranormal. That's not something new– that's been with us here for a very, very long time.

00:34:31 **Aleksandra King:** I mean, when I hear you talk, it's almost like– it sounds like religion, in a way– when you're saying there's a war, and there's good and evil, and there's this higher force, and there's our innate goodness, and there's someone trying to take that away. So there's a lot of it– if someone didn't know that you were– you know, you've done all this research on all these paranormal things and aliens and everything– you would almost sound like you're saying the similar thing– it's just that you're looking at it from a different– a different angle. Do you mind going back and telling us what happened to you with the alien abduction? Or is that not something you want to revisit?

00:35:12 **Philip Kinsella:** Not really. It was a painful experience, and one that shattered my concept of reality– what I believed was reality. There were some Greys that were prevalent, and there were three other beings– one of them– one of the Greys was disturbingly familiar to me– almost plastic– strange. But another researcher had made connections with what happened that night, within that abduction phenomena– and I don't wish to sound vague, but this is where I put myself in a very awkward position back in 1989– because I didn't understand it. I thought that alien interaction was wonderful and superb, and I was telling, you know, people that no, it was anything but– and they were telling me, no, you're deluded– you know, it's because you're a negative person that you had this experience– and people were telling me what they were, where they come from, and even their names of high command. I lost the plot– all I wanted was the truth. One part of the experience occurred on a physical level: the abduction itself happened where I found myself being taken through the glass of our doors, to our house– I was being pulled through– and I'm thinking, how is that possible? How are they able to get the physical part of me through matter? And this then led into a theory that I was credited with back in 1996– because I spent so many years investigating the UFO abduction phenomena– and if people are talking about it on a physical level– integration– how can that be, when I was going through walls and doors? And I was credited with a revolutionary speculation with regards to that, which was called Spirits in a Material World, which dealt with the Greys. And I wondered about them, you see– and about why they're interested in humans. Why was everything secreted? Why didn't they just come forward and say, hey, humans, we're here– we're here to help you? No– they always secreted in the shadows, like ghosts in the night.

00:37:10 **Aleksandra King:** You know– do they want to help us?

00:37:12 **Philip Kinsella:** I don't know. I don't feel– I don't feel so, no.

00:37:16 **Aleksandra King:** Are they– are they bad?

00:37:18 **Philip Kinsella:** Well, are we bad? Are we good, as human beings? You get the good, the bad and the ugly. I'm not so certain– but my idea about them was interesting. They're interested in– so we hear within ufology about hybridisation– okay, just hear me out here– hybridisation– and I didn't see any of that when I had my experience– but where they're creating a crossbreed between them and a human, which creates a hybrid. And I thought, well, why would a species that cannot reproduce be interested in human reproduction– certainly in hybridisation? It didn't make any sense. And I thought, well, if you look at the Greys– they're clones, aren't– well, they appear to be clones– we can't prove that's the case. They seem to be some kind of being that's self-replicated, that has no understanding of time, of space, of smell, of colour, of taste. And I thought, what– what do they want? Have they lost that spark of their divinity? Are they trying to find it through us? That was my main thesis, back in 1996\. And again– very cleverly, when you said, Aleksandra, about the \[unclear: religion?\]– bringing these parts in– that I have, yes, very much so– because I think there's more to this, in terms of what we're dealing with here. And just to finish off here– I thought, well, you know, we hear about the astral planes– the lower planes– is it possible that those that have descended into those lower planes are trying to find a way, and bridge a gap– bridge a gap between them and our world? It was possible to assume that– but my theory also encompassed other areas, and not just that.

00:38:52 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So these grey-looking things, with these eye hollows– and they're really, like, sort of scary, with these long limbs– that's what they look like?

00:39:03 **Philip Kinsella:** We're not sure if we're seeing the real thing. You've got to remember– to us, then, yes.

00:39:08 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– so they look like that to us. And they might be good, they might be bad–

00:39:13 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah.

00:39:13 **Aleksandra King:** And they appear to want something from us.

00:39:16 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes.

00:39:17 **Aleksandra King:** And they want to become a part of us, in a way– that's freaky. That's like– yeah– I did think– I did want– if you're a Grey, stay away.

00:39:26 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah– oh yeah.

00:39:27 **Aleksandra King:** Definitely– they're bad news. Visit me– bad news. I don't want guests in that way.

00:39:31 **Philip Kinsella:** I think it's interesting. I mean, people will tell you how it is– we– and as such, you– before– we don't know. We have to work upon theoretical content. But think about it: what do they want? If they're here to help us, we've had no help from them. They've lied to most of their captors– they've lied to them– they haven't helped them in any way. They're after something– they're looking for something– and it's genetic, it's material. And that's interesting– and I wondered very much about, you know, their true intentions. Is it possible– and we've got to look at this other area, you know– are they the dead, in the lower astral planes, trying to reconnect? Because through their passing– and if they've been really evil and horrible, I'm just saying here– they've been stripped of all the vestiges of that humanness, and they're trying to find their way back. Or is it an extraterrestrial presence– interdimensional presence– that's lost itself through the process of self-replication– the spark of its divinity is gone, its soul is being destroyed– and they're trying to recorrect that, or reconnect with that? That was my main thesis.

00:40:30 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So the other people that you've spoken to, in your network and through your research, that have been abducted by aliens, that have seen these Greys– do they also see them in that form of grey? So that you've all seen them– pretty much–

00:40:44 **Philip Kinsella:** The credible ones– we're not talking about the ones that you said– but, you know, the credible ones.

00:40:50 **Aleksandra King:** You've all seen them in that format– the grey with the hollowed eyes–

00:40:53 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes.

00:40:54 **Aleksandra King:** And they're all wanting this thing from you– and then they make you go through this– through matter, through doors, through everything– they just take you with them.

00:41:00 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes. If we go back to 1961– Kathy Marden, the niece of Betty and Barney– she's a top UFO researcher– she's very good friends with me and my brother– she's one of our good friends. Her auntie and uncle were abducted in 1961– New Hampshire– famous case, the Betty and Barney Hill case– and they saw a UFO coming down over their car, at night, through New Hampshire– and the abduction itself came through in a dream state. It was almost as if there was a shifting of reality– as though the beings themselves could alter reality. And I believe that when they come in, they alter that reality– so time stops, in most cases– and they're able to come in, and then they go out– and then they left the individual with sometimes repressed memories, or scarred memories, that takes time to resurface. I could remember my abduction very clearly– every part of it– with no regression whatsoever, because I'm hard to regress or hypnotise– they can't do it. So it is interesting– it's a phenomena that eludes our sense of reality– but I think they've been here for a very long time. So, you know, if you go back to ancient times, and the fallen gods, and how they mated with the beautiful females and created this hybrid– the Nephilim– well, what are the Greys– I thought, and written about– what are they doing in our modern times? They are doing more or less the same thing as what they had back then– or slightly differently: they're creating some kind of hybrid. Whether or not, back then– in the old days of old– that they wanted to corrupt the original DNA connection, or the original copy of what we represented on the spiritual level– that pure divinity– and they were denied it, and they wanted to corrupt it. So we're finding there's a lot of spiritual, but also genetic, interest here.

00:42:54 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So why– why have they chosen to go to you? And they haven't come– and they better not, if they're listening, come to me, because I don't want them. But why– why is it? Is it because you're more sensitive to it? Is it because you're more receptive to it? Is it because you're operating– using a different part of your brain? What do you think the reason is?

00:43:14 **Philip Kinsella:** I have no idea. I always knew there was something different, and I felt that inside– not just with the UFO research or the clairvoyance– I hate that people put that in a bracket, like, this is what it's called– and people are like, I don't believe in it– and I said, well, that's fine by me– I'm not here to change your structural belief systems– it'd be a very difficult world if we were doing that. But I always knew there was something within me that operated on a deeper level– much deeper– that was very compassionate, very understanding, very wanting to understand and reach out– and being in a world that's so harsh, with people who are too quick to just tell you, well, this is the way it was, and this is the way it is– and it's like, no– but we've got to ask some questions here. You know, we've got to start asking some questions.

00:44:03 **Aleksandra King:** But do you want to reach out to them? Do you– would– if you could have a conversation with the Greys, would you want to have that? Do you want to speak to them?

00:44:11 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes. On the 8th of June 1998, when I was researching Rendlesham Forest– it's famous for the three nights of UFO activity, with the American military stationed here at Bentwaters in Suffolk, England– we had summoned a UFO– me and my brother and my– and Susan– and that had been documented. We had summoned a UFO– and I got the idea from the song from Karen Carpenter's Calling Occupants– and I thought, can we do that? This was on the 8th of June 1998– and a year before, Steve– Dr Steven Greer– created the CE-5 initiative, where you're using a mind. And this wasn't just a light in the sky– this was a fully structured craft. Going back to your very good question about the mind– well, the phenomena seemed to know what we wanted– or were we projecting that out to it? Do you see what I mean?

00:44:58 **Aleksandra King:** So you invited–

00:44:59 **Philip Kinsella:** Correct. We wanted to see–

00:45:00 **Aleksandra King:** Are you sure you want to be inviting them?

00:45:03 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah– I mean, it was incredible.

00:45:05 **Aleksandra King:** Especially if you don't know their intentions. I mean, if you don't know whether they're good or bad, you know, that's a 50/50 chance of being in big trouble, if you invite them.

00:45:13 **Philip Kinsella:** We have nothing to lose on this side of life. We are told that you live and you die, and your consciousness is completely nullified– you are no longer here. Everything within life, we're told, is an accident– it's chaos, it's not order. And I'm like, okay– but that doesn't work with me– because you have got nothing to lose when you're inviting whatever it is that's coming forward. That gives us hope– hope in the sense that it tells us that we are part of something bigger. And if they are coming from wherever they're coming from– whether another world, interdimensionally, however– what about them? Where do they come from? You see?

00:45:55 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. When you say that you summoned this UFO, I actually go back to the movie– the E.T. movie–

00:46:01 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh yes.

00:46:02 **Aleksandra King:** You know, where the little boy– you know, you come home and you actually see the big– did it look similar to that?

00:46:07 **Philip Kinsella:** No– the craft itself was huge, and it was pyramidical-shaped, and there was a gap, and a circular–

00:46:13 **Aleksandra King:** A pyramid– yeah, like a pyramid.

00:46:15 **Philip Kinsella:** And there was a gap, and a circular appendage underneath it. It hung above these trees in the forest. The bottom part was blue– had a bank of blue lights– it was bluish. The top part– they were separated– was glowing different colours– and where the top part moved one way, the other part moved the other– almost like a witch's hat, but with a gap– and moving, you know, each different ways, like clockwork. And I started to run towards it– I ran towards it because I wanted it– I wanted to find out what they were– and I remembered that that was an incredible experience. And people say to me, I don't believe you– and I'm like, I don't want you to believe me. It was more of a personal exploration of consciousness– it was for me, not for you. And this is the thing I have to explain here– on the last sighting of UFOs, which was a major event– with me and my brother and my niece Charlie– that happened on the 9th of April 2016, at 11:50 pm at night– and these UFOs– the three of them– were tracked all the way from the Isles of Scilly– and my niece filmed them on her mobile phone before they arrived, and sent it to me and my brother– on that cold night– because we'd come back from some police friends, for a meal. We didn't see any aliens, but they were huge– they were right above us. And so, when my niece had filmed them, and we got it all together– and other researchers were in touch with us, to say they'd filmed it from the other side of England– when these had been analysed– because I want everything analysed– everything– I want clarity on everything– no one wanted to know. It's almost as if there's some kind of conscious dissonance. I mean, television got involved– yeah, I'm not interested in that. What I'm saying is that other ufologists were like, no– can't see it– because when you're presented with something that could appear as evidence, they don't want to see it. It's as though they want to keep their magic within their mind going– like chasing something that they can't touch.

00:48:18 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– because there were– I mean, there were articles, what was it– a few months ago– about unidentified objects in the sky– and they always make it to the newspapers, and you sort of think, well, what is that? And then no one really gets to the bottom of it. So there was also a big thing about, you know, governments– you know, especially in the States– getting involved in this–

00:48:37 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh yes.

00:48:37 **Aleksandra King:** Conspiracies, and hiding alien information from us– information– are they hiding things from us?

00:48:43 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh, most definitely. I think the problem is the Pentagon– and there are higher officers above ordinary colonels, and, you know, even the top brass. I think what's happened is that when it comes to UFOs– or now UAPs– UAPs– the same thing– it doesn't matter, you know– they're just trying to– they changed the acronym to make it more earthly. I think the system for so long has programmed the public into the belief that it's all rubbish– and if it is true, they're little green men coming from another planet– saucers–

00:49:17 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– they're grey– yeah– put it out there.

00:49:19 **Philip Kinsella:** That's right– they are grey. But think about this: for decades the public have been hoodwinked with this drip feed of– it's possible, we're not sure– it's possible, we're not sure– and film footage, photographic evidence, reports from navy and military officials– oh, that's upsetting the apple cart. And the reason being is that if the system did release the true information to the public, I think the public would be horrified– they'd be– they'd be scared.

00:49:51 **Aleksandra King:** What about things that have landed on earth– the physical things, or bits of objects– or is there something like that? Do we have anything?

00:49:59 **Philip Kinsella:** Oh, you mean crashed craft– retrieval– operation–

00:50:01 **Aleksandra King:** Something– just any kind of evidence like that.

00:50:04 **Philip Kinsella:** Well, we don't have the evidence, but we have, you know, whistleblowers that come forward– and there are clean-up operations– crash retrieval clean-up operations– they have them in America– they've got them– and it's well known that they bring them– that– whenever there is a crashed object of unknown origin– and strangely enough, these objects come in rather remote locations. They never seem to– I've always been puzzled– like, why don't you just, you know, come down in a city– without hurting anyone– but crash somewhere where we can all see it? So one wonders whether or not the phenomena is deliberately bringing itself down for us to find it– or that the military themselves have got the technology to bring them down. So I think it's, you know, a double-edged sword with this.

00:50:46 **Aleksandra King:** Okay– so what happens with these– these– because there are unexplained objects in the sky, and then things crash, and then, you know, they– well, we don't know what this is– what happens to all that stuff? Where does it get filed? What– it's privatised? Does it just get categorised as unknown? We don't– the X-Files– is there– is there an X-Files? Is there really an X-File?

00:51:05 **Philip Kinsella:** There is really an X-Files– and if anyone doesn't believe that there is– because there is– there really is. Because when you're dealing with UFO research– any of those classified programmes are within private companies, so there is no paper trail or connection leading to them. So it's privatised, so that no one can get their hands on them– and this is well known within the field. And what they've been doing is been trying to back-engineer the technology– but that is interesting, because I don't– we don't feel that they're able to do that. We hear these stories that they've been able to replicate certain parts of this technology– but my argument is– and just given an example here– you know about the– the famous Roswell crash, in 1947, in New Mexico– where the UFO crashed– and it was all a big fuss, wasn't it– and it was all covered over. And of course the military said, first of all, that it was a flying disc had crashed, and then they changed the story to a Mogul weather balloon– so secret, in fact, that the army didn't even know it was there. So, you know, they're trying to fob the public off. But from what we understand, through whistleblowers, is that part of that crash had been used to reverse-engineer technology. But my argument is this: so you have a disc that comes down, with bodies– Greys– and you cannibalise the UFO and you use it– but the technology is just in reach of our human understanding. So my idea is: is the phenomena trying to deliberately alter the course of our human development? Because we have come out from the old days of old, and now we've suddenly turned into a technological age– overnight. We don't know.

00:52:54 **Aleksandra King:** But if we are saying that someone's hiding it, right– someone's– so there's the X-Files– why is it– why would they be hiding? Is it– is it just not to panic people, and create complete disorder– or what? Who is controlling that, and why do they want to hide it? Wouldn't it be quite sensational, and quite something, to release it– and then let's all talk about it on the news– and what is it– and analyse it, get all the scientists involved, and make it a big deal? Like– why would there be an agenda to hide it?

00:53:25 **Philip Kinsella:** Okay. First of all– first question before I answer that– 3I/ATLAS– that's come in– it's just come around the sun. You've heard about that object, that's come– that they originally thought it was a comet– but its movements and its composition– it contradicts total science. And when all of the satellites in our solar system was ready to take close images of it, NASA went down– the Chinese space agency went down, or went quiet. Okay– I'm just going to say that first of all– because the object itself, most people are assuming, is some kind of intelligent object that has objects accompanying it. That is– that is fact– okay– because they know that its composition is very different. So just– just to make you aware of the fact– you know– well, who is running the show? Who's really operating behind the scenes? Okay– with regards to letting the public know what's going on– why are we not being informed? Good question. Why? The Cabal. We do have a Cabal on this planet, and they are people who have lots and lots and lots of money, and they seem to be operating behind the scenes– and people say, oh, that's conspiracy theory– no, it's not conspiracy. What you thought was conspiracy 10 or 15 years ago has turned out to be truthful today– how can that be conspiracy? So it's possible that they have the cream– that– why don't they want the public to know? Well, if the public knew– this is my idea– if the public was told the truth– about, oh, ladies and gentlemen, we've got to tell you that UFOs– but we changed the acronym to UAPs– are real. There are grey aliens– they come in– they're interdimensional in nature– they are biogenetic and material– and they're wanting to kind of like do something with a human being. They can abduct people. They can also– are responsible for cattle mutilations– dare we mention that– and in some cases human mutilations– dear Lord– but, by the way– if the system was to explain to the public of the reality of UFOs, then life after death– what we are– and that would lead them, I believe, all the way back to say, hang on just a minute– within religion, we are seeing these signs, we are seeing these lights, these miracles– and nothing's changed. But I think and feel that most people say, well, hang on a minute– we've been lied to– you've lied to us. And I think that social order will break down– because those at the top– the Cabal– will, you know– their monopolies would come down. I mean, if this object that was coming– that's in space– did– let's just say it presented itself to the earth– apparently it's 13 miles in width– I don't think it will come here, but I'm just saying– those rich people will be so frightened, because all their money will go– because they're like, oh my goodness me, look at that– what on earth is that? The system's told us they don't exist– and there it is. I'm not going to go to work. You see what I mean? I'm not going to go to work.

00:56:28 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. So we've spoken about aliens, and we've spoken about UFOs, and all of that extraterrestrial-type thing– but you've also got a speciality in the–

00:56:40 **Philip Kinsella:** Well, there is an overlap, isn't there?

00:56:42 **Aleksandra King:** Paranormal– yes. I'm just going to ask you straight up: do you think ghosts are real?

00:56:49 **Philip Kinsella:** Our understanding of ghosts is a little bit, you know, stereotypical, I think. Residue of energy– of human consciousness– sometimes can hang around certain areas–

00:57:00 **Aleksandra King:** Recording– residue of energy– yeah.

00:57:02 **Philip Kinsella:** So we are energy– so, you and I are energy– everything around us is energy– it operates– fluctuates– on different energy exchanges. And so I believe that ghosts do– hanging around. I don't think they're out to specifically scare you. I think perhaps it could be– that in some instances– there are two thoughts about that– whether or not something in a past has had such a strong impression upon the person that has died, and that residue– that recording– is still playing out– that has happened within the past– like an echo– an imprint that we're seeing of that.

00:57:39 **Aleksandra King:** And if you've heard a person that's either passing away– already, you know, on their way to the other world– saying something to you– or one that's already passed, and you hear them speaking to you– is that energy?

00:57:54 **Philip Kinsella:** Yes– a transference of energy, I think and believe. In this material form– this biological form– the spirit, the consciousness– that part of what we represent– has been recorded as being almost like– they would call it the secondary body– the etheric body, the astral body– it's called a secondary body. So it's energy that permeates the human biological form– and upon death, a lot of cases report seeing this energy dissipate from the person– normally through the mouth– the Egyptians used to do their rituals to, you know, smash the mouth open– in their rituals– to release the spirit– and sometimes from the stomach. So we are energy– but we're understanding that that energy supersedes this physical, material level of reality, and goes into what we call the spirit world.

00:58:47 **Aleksandra King:** So wonderful. That's why it's kind of like– like faint– like, not that strong– sometimes it would just be like a voice, or a sign, or a– so many people have reported this.

00:58:58 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah– because we're not matched– yeah, we're not matched by that density. Remember– it's like that– your mobile phone and the signal: they complement one another very well, but they are different connections of energy. Do you see what I mean? So you can't grab the signals, you can't mould them, you can't read them– until it attaches to the modulator. And normally, those who have crossed over are able to reach out to their loved ones– to give them a message, to give them a sign– to sometimes speak to them, or give them a message– to tell them that they're okay. That normally happens quite a lot of time. But people say, I want proof. Well, you're not going to get it, are you? You know– tell me, sir or madam, where your signal is to your mobile phone. Well, it's there. Well, where is it? Show it to me. You can't– but they just take it for granted– which we know– I've just given an example– that, well, where is the signal? It's there. Where is it? You can't see that. So when we're dealing with life after death– it is fascinating– there are many different levels that we can look at with regards to that. And what we have to also be very careful of is also religious ideologies– because religion has its own constructs. But I believe that death is a very personal experience, as life is. We try to squeeze it all into the same box– and this is what it is, and that's what it is– no. It's going to be different for you, just as your life is.

01:00:26 **Aleksandra King:** Well, I've certainly heard people saying that they've heard– and I've had some weird experiences myself– but, you know, some– you'll hear of–

01:00:34 **Philip Kinsella:** My grandmother came to me– when my grand– my grandmother– when this all started, with regards to the mediumship– and, believe you me, I didn't want anything to do with it– I was involved with UFO research before the mediumship came about– was that we had gone to go and see our maternal grandmother, who was dying of cancer, in a Somerset hospital. And a week later I was at home, in Bedfordshire, and I was asleep– and I started– I woke up, and I was crying– and I got visibly upset, and I knew something had happened to my grandma. And her voice– her voice came in my head, twice: why are you crying? These were exact words– why are you crying? It was her voice. She wasn't admonishing–

01:01:20 **Aleksandra King:** Oh yes– in here– clearly– clearly?

01:01:22 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah. And she wasn't angry– but I thought– I was shocked. And then she showed me a scene in her head– of her holding me and my twin brother, as babies, in her arms. We have the photograph– it's in the album. And there was a silence– and then the phone rang. She'd passed.

01:01:38 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah.

01:01:39 **Philip Kinsella:** At that point I then went to go– for the first time ever– I'd gone to consult a medium that worked for the FBI in America, who worked on cold cases– that means that she was a medium that would find bodies that the police couldn't find– so that normally the FBI would bring them in– people like this.

01:01:56 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah.

01:01:56 **Philip Kinsella:** So she– I went to go and see her, and I was kind of like on the fence– because I'm– people know me to be no-nonsense– and she wiped the floor with me. And she said to me, you'll be back here in two years, to do mediumship. And I said no. And two years later, I was back.

01:02:11 **Aleksandra King:** So you– you believed her– what she was doing– her work and everything like that?

01:02:16 **Philip Kinsella:** Absolutely. She brought my grandmother through. She knew about things that no one else knew about me. She even knew about the alien abduction– she brought that up in the reading. But look– you're going back to, you know, back in the days of– in the late '90s– I mean, people didn't have access to information as we do today. And I was stunned. I remembered, when she finished the reading– she brought my grandma through– I got in my car– I sat down in my car, and I lit a cigarette in my car– I never smoked in my car indoors before– I lit– and I put my head down on the steering wheel, and I cried. And it was like– like a weight lifted from my shoulders.

01:02:53 **Aleksandra King:** And the police are using her to do– to all these cases– because you hear about that– it's just– it's– can't explain it, can you?

01:03:00 **Philip Kinsella:** Well, I will tell you, while we're here, that we were involved with her when she had consulted the police here in England– and she was half a mile away from the body, very sadly, of Sarah Payne– the young girl that had been murdered. She was half a mile away from detecting of where her body was.

01:03:17 **Aleksandra King:** Oh yes– really?

01:03:18 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

01:03:21 **Aleksandra King:** Incredible, isn't it?

01:03:22 **Philip Kinsella:** It is incredible. So this opened up a– yeah– a whole new area of investigation, on a psychic level.

01:03:28 **Aleksandra King:** Like, wow– you can do that with your mind. Can they help you?

01:03:32 **Philip Kinsella:** And as soon as I was back to see her– because there was a friend of mine who had died of cancer– Gareth, his name was– he was dying of cancer, and this was in 1998– he died in 1999\. And I'd written a manuscript called The Eternal Cosmic Corridor– I wasn't published then– and I was going through the stage of UFO research– not really, you know, getting everything together– and then being involved in the psychic part. So what happened with Gareth was that he was 18, and going on to 19, and he had cancer. He was a swimmer– and we used to work with him– he was a work colleague– we all loved him. Never seen anyone go through that before– never. Before he passed over, I said to him, would you do me a favour? I said, would you be able to show yourself to me after you passed? God, that was a tall order– and I thought he'd hit me– because I was involved with Pearl then– my grandma had passed. So he said, sure, I'll do that– how do you expect me to do that? And I said, I don't know– you'll find a way. So he said, okay– I'll beam down, like they do on Star Trek. So he passed, on the 25th of June 1999– and he'd read my book, The Eternal Cosmic Corridor– that then eventually became Reaching for the Divine, years later– that was published. And I– after he passed– went to the funeral. I went into a bookstore, and this book fell on the floor– it was a bookstore down Mill Street, in Bedford– Richard Wildman owned it– he was an author of books on Bedfordshire– he was a good man. And the book was Reunions, by Dr Raymond Moody– how to communicate the dead through using mirrors. It's all been written about– I've written all about this. So I used his experiment of mirror gazing, to bring Gareth through. Nothing happened– where you sit in a room, and you get a mirror– you put it in an angle, so that your face is not staring into it– it's dark– and you think about the person you want to come through. Nothing happened. But then, in the winter of 1999, I came back from work. I sat in the kitchen– it was dark outside– the lights were on, creating a kind of like a black-screen effect on the conservatory glass doors. We have a garage out back, that has– that is locked– and there's a side door, which is locked, and there's a big gate, that's locked– no one can get in. There was a young lad that I saw, coming through the doorway to the garage– as though exiting the garage, where the car is parked. And I got up– and he moved forward, and turned to face me– and it was Gareth. He had his cap, white T-shirt and blue jeans on. He was looking straight at me.

01:06:14 **Aleksandra King:** Did he say anything to you?

01:06:16 **Philip Kinsella:** Nope. He was looking– he looked very much the way he had, just before he– he wasn't as ill-looking, but he looked like that. And he put his hand up, as if to say, what's wrong? This is– I could see him clearly. And then I was so shocked that I got up, and I pulled the conservatory glass door back– because there's the other doors to the– the other doors, you know– conservatory here, and then the other conservatory– and he'd gone. And I remembered– I was so stunned– and that's when I went back to see Pearl– that was what– because Pearl said to me, you'll be back in two years' time– two to three years– I can't remember which it was– I'm sorry– anyone wants to quote me on that, I don't care, because it all happened. And I was back to see the medium– and it was all because of that– because I was so shocked. And I think I'm a very hard person– I mean, I like to talk to people, and I like to discuss, and, you know, tell them how I feel, very passionately– but it's sometimes hard to get through to me. But that hit me hard. And I think most elements of the phenomena has done that– given me a whack, to say, we're going to wake you up– we want you to wake up– to see that this is real.

01:07:26 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, yeah. But then how do you deal with that afterwards? Well– there will be a lot of people watching this that have had some sort of experience that they can't explain– either they've seen someone that's passed away, or they felt their energy, or they've spoken to them, or they've sent them some– some sign– that's a very obvious sign– and they know it– and only them and that person would know that thing. There will be people watching that can't explain it, but have had these experiences.

01:07:55 **Philip Kinsella:** Yeah. Whether you believe in ghosts, whether you don't believe in ghosts– and also with the aliens and things– how far you want to take that– there is connections to be made. There must be links, there must be purpose, there must be understanding, to what we are, where we come from– my God– you know– otherwise, what is the point? I go back– I have an identical twin brother, and we're very, very close, and I can't imagine life without him– and it's the same with all of us. You ask someone in this mechanical existence, that goes round– and a wheel, and a wheel– and I'm sitting there thinking, oh my God, what on earth is going on– and they're probably thinking the same of me– and I'm like, but I'm seeing things differently from you, as you're seeing things differently from me. But what I say to them is: have you ever loved someone? Have you ever loved someone so much, and then you've lost them? I haven't lost my twin brother– but if you've lost someone that you love, that changes everything. We are– my God– we have the spirit– we have a deeper part of us– that I know– that music is vibration– we listen to music, but there's a deeper part of us that resonates– that connects on a stronger level– of the spirit, you know– of the soul, as people call it. And if you are denouncing that– and– I'm sorry– I'm walking out of life– I don't want nothing more to do with it– because what is the point? And this is– this is what I can't get my head around, Aleksandra– I can't understand why people are just– and they're doing it– they're moving forward, because they have to– but I'm like, stop– stop– look around you. We're not asking the right questions. Why is the system not telling us this? Why have we got no clarity here? Why are these people being so greedy, and taking everything from other people? Why is there suffering? Why is there destruction? It goes on– and I just think– you get to that point where you think, I've had enough– it's got to stop– we've got to ask the right questions. So, yeah– we're going back to the UFO research, and the life-after-death concept– I thought people would think I was mad, but I don't care now– because I'm after the truth.

01:09:57 **Aleksandra King:** Well, it's been out of this world, shall I say– an out-of-this-world experience, having you on. It's definitely stretched my mind in directions I didn't know possible– but it's been fascinating having you on. Wish you all the very best with all of the future research that you're– I'm sure you're going to be doing.

01:10:17 **Philip Kinsella:** Thank you very much.

01:10:19 **Aleksandra King:** I look forward to seeing what you find. Thank you– and thank you for coming on.

01:10:23 **Philip Kinsella:** It's been an honour to be on the show with you, very much indeed. Thank you.

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