> ## Content Index > Fetch the complete content index at: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/llms.txt > Use this file to discover other available public pages before exploring further. # What Surviving Wildlife Teaches You About Business | Joe Phillips - URL: https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/what-surviving-wildlife-teaches-you-about-business/ - Published: 2025-03-19T17:15:00.000Z - Updated: 2026-08-24T10:06:28.000Z - Description: From buffalo charges in the African bush to The Apprentice: safari guide turned entrepreneur Joe Phillips on nature, fame and conservation. - Author: Elliott King - Tags: Joe Phillips, episode, Season 1, #ep-7 **What does surviving a buffalo charge teach you about a boardroom?** Safari guide turned sustainable entrepreneur [Joe Phillips](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/joe-phillips/) joins host and producer [Aleksandra King](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/aleksandra-king/) on The BEYOND Podcast to share his journey from the African bush to The Apprentice, and his mission to become the next voice of wildlife conservation. ## Episode summary Joe grew up wild, with a love of animals and nature that carried him into zoology and then safari guide training, complete with first encounters that included charging buffalo. The bush taught him a settled set of conservation values, and the tension between those values and modern business runs through the whole conversation. The Apprentice chapters are unusually candid: why he applied, what the behind-the-scenes machine actually looks like, what he really thought of the other candidates, and the Katie Hopkins moment as he experienced it. Life after the show brought the reality of TV fame, and a thoughtful stretch on masculinity, social media and public image, from a man whose reference point for pressure is a wild animal rather than a boardroom. It closes with the dream: his vision of becoming the next voice of wildlife conservation, and Aleksandra's quickfire round to finish. ## Key takeaways - The bush is the better teacher: surviving wildlife builds a calibration for pressure no boardroom can match. - Conservation values and modern business pull against each other, and holding both takes deliberate effort. - Reality TV's machine looks different from the inside, and fame after it is its own challenge. - Masculinity and public image deserve more honest conversation than social media allows. - The ambition is bigger than business: becoming the next voice of wildlife conservation. ## Key chapters | Chapter | Timestamp | | ----------------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------ | | Welcome | [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q) | | Joe Phillips joins Aleksandra King | [01:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=118s) | | Growing up wild: a love for animals and nature | [04:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=287s) | | Safari guide training, and first encounters | [07:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=456s) | | Conservation values versus modern business | [10:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=620s) | | Applying for The Apprentice | [13:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=781s) | | Behind the scenes of The Apprentice | [15:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=952s) | | What Joe really thought of the other candidates | [18:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=1121s) | | The Katie Hopkins moment | [21:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=1280s) | | Life after The Apprentice | [24:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=1458s) | | Masculinity, social media, and public image | [28:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=1689s) | | The dream job, and a vision for the future | [32:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=1927s) | | Aleksandra's quickfire, and final thoughts | [36:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q&t=2180s) | ## The guest Joe Phillips is a zoologist and safari guide turned sustainable entrepreneur, known from The Apprentice and on a mission to become the next voice of wildlife conservation. His full background is on his guest profile. - [Joe Phillips on LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-phillips1/) [Joe Phillips's guest profile](https://www.thebeyondpodcast.com/guests/joe-phillips/) ## Where to listen - [Watch on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=St54tqkNr1Q) - [Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/beyond-with-aleksandra-king/id1786173140) - [Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/show/0haFQYUTnEn0fpr0LQYlhH) - [YouTube Music](https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=MPSPPL3iQHE-qteJING9jXVVuVUdDa-9qqer7J) - [RSS feed](https://anchor.fm/s/10464b2ac/podcast/rss) ## Transcript #### Read the full episode transcript ### Cold open 00:00:00 **Aleksandra King:** In this episode I interview Joe Phillips, who is a self-proclaimed James Bond of the jungle. He talks about why he's not scared of Alan Sugar, because he's faced far worse things in the jungle. And we cover which animal made him faint. We cover some of the weirdest things fans have ever sent him or said to him. It's a really interesting and funny one, so I hope you enjoy it. ### Interview 00:00:30 **Aleksandra King:** Joe, welcome to Beyond the Boardroom Podcast. I'm really happy to have you here, because out of all the apprentices you kind of stand out– ex-apprentices– because never have I ever, or anyone, seen an apprentice candidate who's also a safari guide. It just doesn't fit, 'cause aren't all the Apprentice people supposed to be mean? 00:00:49 **Joe Phillips:** It's weird, isn't it? 00:00:50 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. Well, most of them. But, like, a safari guide? 00:00:54 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, it doesn't really add up. 00:00:55 **Aleksandra King:** No, it doesn't add up. 00:00:57 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah. Thanks for having me on this show, and hopefully we can dive into that in a bit more detail. 00:01:02 **Aleksandra King:** Thanks for coming on. 00:01:03 **Joe Phillips:** Pleasure. 00:01:03 **Aleksandra King:** We'll start with: if you could describe yourself in three words, what would those three words be, and why? 00:01:10 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, my gosh. Positive, enthusiastic and ambitious. I think that would probably be the three to– 00:01:17 **Aleksandra King:** Enthusiastic and ambitious? Yeah. Okay. 00:01:21 **Joe Phillips:** I'd say so. Yeah– ambitious or driven, one of them. 00:01:23 **Aleksandra King:** I think one of them... Okay. I said three. 00:01:27 **Joe Phillips:** Three. So let's go for positive, enthusiastic and ambitious. 00:01:32 **Aleksandra King:** I can see that. I can definitely see that. Okay. Let's talk about the safari side first. You clearly love animals. Like, did you always love animals? 00:01:40 **Joe Phillips:** So I was lucky enough to grow up in the developing world, so I spent most of my childhood kind of hopping around these fantastic countries like Zimbabwe and Malaysia and Egypt. 00:01:53 **Aleksandra King:** Why were you doing that? 00:01:54 **Joe Phillips:** It was mainly my dad's job. So my mum's a doctor, and she was working out in Uganda at the time. My mum's side grew up in Zambia. Dad works as a venture capitalist, so completely different. I guess that's... you can probably already tell that's where I get my kind of business side from there, and then the kind of nature-loving side from my mum. 00:02:14 **Aleksandra King:** I grew up in South Africa. So... and I visited a lot of the countries as well, the nearby countries– so Zimbabwe is one of them. Which city did you live in? Was it Harare? In Harare? 00:02:23 **Joe Phillips:** In Harare. Yeah, in Harare. 00:02:25 **Aleksandra King:** Listen, when I was there, never in my life have I seen spiders of that size. 00:02:30 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, yeah. You love them, though. You've got to love them. 00:02:33 **Aleksandra King:** No. You don't love them. I mean, I just looked up in the ceiling one day, and it was about that big. It dropped on the ground, and it's start– 00:02:39 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, no. The thing is– so spiders, yes. Our house– I don't know what it was– our house in Zim, in Harare, was like... I don't know if there's, like, a scorpion nest or something there, but it was infested with scorpions. 00:02:53 **Aleksandra King:** Gosh. You can die from that. 00:02:54 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, you can. Well... This is, like, where my passion... Here we go. 00:03:01 **Aleksandra King:** Scorpion knowledge. 00:03:01 **Joe Phillips:** There are two types of scorpions. No– there's Buthidae, Scorpionidae. Scorpionidae is fine, which luckily is what we had, so we've all been stung by them. And it's like a hot bee sting– like, really painful, but you won't die. Buthidae, if you get stung by them– sure. 00:03:17 **Aleksandra King:** Is it hours? A couple of hours, or days? 00:03:19 **Joe Phillips:** No, not really. No. You can die from them. It's not fatal every single time. But if you're young– like when we were– if we got stung by a scorpion, a Buthidae scorpion, when we were three years old, yeah, it can be a matter of days. 00:03:34 **Aleksandra King:** It's just the way they put their tail... I know. They're just freaky. 00:03:38 **Joe Phillips:** But I loved it. So to answer your question– I know we deviated a bit– my earliest memories are, like, running around the African bush barefoot, and I've always been curious and around nature. 00:03:50 **Aleksandra King:** Close to it. 00:03:51 **Joe Phillips:** Close to it. And I think when you're exposed to such a diversity of biomes, from the African savannah to the Malaysian jungle to the Egyptian desert, it's impossible not to fall in love with it. 00:04:05 **Aleksandra King:** It is impossible. They say that once you've lived in Africa, you've got that magic of Africa within you. There is something in there. You'll never... It's, like, so special. 00:04:15 **Joe Phillips:** I encourage anyone to be watching to go. 00:04:19 **Aleksandra King:** Submerge yourself in it. But also as a kiddy, when you're so close, you know– because, I mean, kids on these days, on their phones, whatever, blah, blah, blah, and they're indoors and stuff. But when you're outside and you get to know, like, ants and what they do, and they become like your friends– but in a way they do– you're playing with different kinds of animals and insects, and you're learning about them, and you're close to them. Like that bug and this bug and the birds and this and that. You kind of... you then get really close, and then you feel like you want to protect them, don't you? 00:04:45 **Joe Phillips:** That's what I loved about guiding and learning about the bush– it just opens your eyes to... Like I said, people think about conservation, they think of pandas. You know what? It's more than that. Like, the ants and the bugs and the beetles– that's the exciting thing. That's what I get excited about. 00:05:02 **Aleksandra King:** They're really cute, aren't they? There's so much to them. But not just the ones in Africa and in the bush, 'cause, like, we'll get to this, but I also– like, because of my love for animals as well, like you, in Africa– I've also started to discover the ones that are here. So the reason why I agree with you saying ambition as one of your points to describe yourself is because in our pre-podcast call you said that you want to follow in David Attenborough's footsteps. I mean, that's a massive thing to say. 00:05:29 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, yeah. I'd love to try. 00:05:31 **Aleksandra King:** You're going to try. Yeah, well, you want to. That's an ambition. So no one can say you're not an ambitious person. You 100% are very ambitious, and I think that would suit you, 'cause you've got... you like the whole TV side, right? 00:05:41 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, exactly. 00:05:42 **Aleksandra King:** Not shy, and then you love animals, so why not? 00:05:45 **Joe Phillips:** Exactly. And I love education as well. I think when you look at conservation, one of the big, most powerful tools we have is educating people about nature, and David Attenborough just does that so well. 00:05:58 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:05:58 **Joe Phillips:** And so that's what I'd love to do. 00:06:00 **Aleksandra King:** Okay, so speaking of education– I mean, seriously, what do you actually study in zoology? Like, just literally what is it? 00:06:07 **Joe Phillips:** So obviously I studied zoology at Exeter and ethology at Oxford, which is, like, animal behaviour. It's not like you learn this is a cow, this is a giraffe. 00:06:19 **Aleksandra King:** This is how a cow behaves. 00:06:21 **Joe Phillips:** Exactly. So you start off, and it starts off broad, like any university degree, and then it goes narrow. 00:06:29 **Aleksandra King:** What do you mean, broad? Like, these are the types of animal categories and– 00:06:32 **Joe Phillips:** Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So, like, our modules in first– 00:06:36 **Aleksandra King:** Crustaceans, these are– 00:06:38 **Joe Phillips:** 100%. So, like, we had modules called invertebrate zoology and vertebrate zoology– so, like, these broad clades where you dive and learn about chordates and you learn about arthropods. 00:06:50 **Aleksandra King:** Whether they have, like, a backbone thing or not. 00:06:53 **Joe Phillips:** Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But then you kind of specialise, and you can go... you know, first you'll be broad– like sustainability, ecology– and then as you progress you kind of choose the one, the direction you want to go in. So I loved, like, physiology– learning about the body and hormones and things like that– and eventually specialised into behaviour. Like, animal behaviour was something I fell in love with. 00:07:20 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, but what do you learn in animal behaviour? Like, how does a lion behave when he's, you know, angry with another lion entering territory? Is that what you learn? The lion is angry... 00:07:32 **Joe Phillips:** Exact– like I said, I've always been curious about nature. And I loved, as a guide, just sit... I could sit and watch, like, a troop of baboons or elephant for hours and just be like, "What are you thinking right now? What is–" 00:07:49 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, I know what they're thinking. I'll tell you a story. The baboons– they're, like, feisty little things. I was in a really nice resort in South Africa, but it's kind of like one of those really in-touch-with-nature kind of resorts– basic, stripped back. And I was outside on the balcony looking at the ocean, you know, very nice vibe, sort of in my own world with my little child, who was one years old. She was eating a banana, and then I looked, and there was a baboon bigger than a man looking at me. And then he started towards me and reached out to take the banana off my child. And on my instinct I just literally took her, and I shoved her behind the doors, and, like, sliding doors, and he's sort of coming towards me, and I'm like... I only just... His hand– human hands– like, honestly, the nails, you could see it. Like, so human. It's crazy. And he was so strong trying to open the sliding door, and I'm shouting for my husband, going, "Helier, help me." And my husband runs, and both of us versus this baboon, and the baboon's sort of looking, and I'm like, "Oh, no, you don't. You're not eating my–" 00:08:53 **Joe Phillips:** A mother's instinct kicks in. 00:08:55 **Aleksandra King:** You know what– my strength, I tell you. We're animals too, you know? So, like, yeah, come on, baboon. You know what I mean? Bring it on. You're not taking the banana nor the child. But, apparently, they go in– they go inside these homes, they raid the fridges. They know their stuff, man. What behaviour's this, like... 00:09:10 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, well, they're scary as well. Their canines are actually bigger than a lion's. The male baboons are scary. I've also been scratched by a baboon. 00:09:21 **Aleksandra King:** A baboon scratched you? 00:09:22 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah. I've had so... I've been, like, bitten and scratched, stung by all sorts. 00:09:27 **Aleksandra King:** How did the baboon scratch you? 00:09:29 **Joe Phillips:** I don't even know– I was super young– but it's actually very embarrassing. Like, I've been bitten by things, scratched by things– wild boars, monkeys, scorpions. And then in Egypt I got... It's actually so embarrassing. I don't know why I'm saying this. 00:09:43 **Aleksandra King:** Say it. 00:09:46 **Joe Phillips:** So I've had, like, so many rabies jabs I'm sorted for life– like, just because of all the wild animals I've been scratched by. And then when we were in Egypt, I was in, like, a pet shop, like, the backstreets of Cairo, and playing with this little kitten– like, I could fit it in one hand. And then the kitten bit me on the top of my finger. 00:10:07 **Aleksandra King:** Ooh. 00:10:07 **Joe Phillips:** And I fainted. 00:10:10 **Aleksandra King:** You fainted? 00:10:10 **Joe Phillips:** It was just so embarrassing. I remember, like... I remember looking at my finger and, like, watching the blood trickle, and then next thing I remember I was waking up to, like, fresh orange juice and stuff. 00:10:22 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, wow. 00:10:22 **Joe Phillips:** It was so embarrassing. 00:10:23 **Aleksandra King:** Did you have antibiotic, though, after he bit you? 00:10:25 **Joe Phillips:** I actually went and got another rabies jab, because I think the reason why I fainted is, as I was looking at this blood, like, my mum was talking to the pet shop owner, and the pet shop was like, "Yeah, I think you should probably get him some rabies jabs, 'cause we don't quite know." And I was like– 00:10:46 **Aleksandra King:** "What?" Yeah, you freaked out. 00:10:47 **Joe Phillips:** Bang. Yeah. 00:10:48 **Aleksandra King:** Wow. Okay, so you have this sensitive side to blood. But no, because... so my dad was a veterinary scientist– but sort of, like, that's the reason why he got asked to go from Poland to South Africa in 1981, right? So he... but he didn't... he worked on, like, vaccines– like, Ebola-type stuff. So these big fridges and everything. But he'd always say that if you ever got bitten by a cat– like, as in blood– that you should get an antibiotic, because you can get sepsis from that and literally die 'cause of the bacteria. They're very unique to having this toxic bacteria there. 00:11:24 **Joe Phillips:** And, yeah, like lions– one of the... like, if you don't die of blood loss, it'll probably be– 00:11:29 **Aleksandra King:** Kill you eventually. 00:11:30 **Joe Phillips:** All the bacteria. 00:11:31 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. So the cats– so they're very nice, but if you get bitten... so, yeah, you probably were right to faint, actually. Yeah. So I was going to ask: what's the wildest thing that's ever happened? 00:11:40 **Joe Phillips:** The wildest experience... You know, when you go on safari, you can either go on drive– like, you take the vehicle out– or you can go on foot. 00:11:49 **Aleksandra King:** Trek. 00:11:50 **Joe Phillips:** Trek. Yeah. That's what I specialised in. 00:11:54 **Aleksandra King:** That's brave. 00:11:55 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, but I love it. When you learn to be a guide, you qualify as FGASA level. I wanted to take that further and get my trails qualification, which is where you do your advanced rifle handling– you learn how to track, how to trail. That's the danger, because you're in their environment, you know? 00:12:12 **Aleksandra King:** Yes. Their house. 00:12:13 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, it's their house, their rules. Their neighbourhood. So when you're in a vehicle, you feel very safe when you see a lion walking by. When you're on foot, it's a whole different story. So the wildest experience– I've been charged by elephant, by lion, by buffalo. 00:12:31 **Aleksandra King:** You've been charged by an elephant? 00:12:33 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, yeah. 00:12:34 **Aleksandra King:** How does that feel, being– 00:12:37 **Joe Phillips:** As you can imagine, it gets your heart. 00:12:39 **Aleksandra King:** How did you run away from them? 00:12:40 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, you never run. 00:12:42 **Aleksandra King:** You never run. Okay. 00:12:44 **Joe Phillips:** Never run. Except– okay, I'll tell you a story. So the goal– and obviously you want to avoid these situations, you never want to be... The whole purpose in learning how to trail and track is to be able to cope in a situation like that, and it's so much fun. Like, we... I went and camped in the Limpopo for three months straight. Every day we would track a new animal. So it would be, you know, today we're finding lion– find the spoor, track it, find the pride, approach the pride. Next day, elephant– ba, ba, bum. And each day– and I remember our trainers, they would want us to push the boundaries intentionally. So each animal would have, like, their zone of confidence, we call it– like, where they're comfortable. They see you, but they're like, "Okay, he's fine there." If you go a bit closer, he's like, "I don't want him to come closer." And then if you step further, that's when it initiates the charge or the run. 00:13:39 **Aleksandra King:** You kind of deserve it, though. 00:13:40 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, yeah. And, you know– and, like, elephant, they're just so obvious with their emotions. And if they're unhappy, they'll tell you– they shake their head or they trumpet. But, yeah, so our trainers would intentionally get us to push those boundaries, so we knew how to deal with it. And it... so it would get to the point where, you know, based on their behaviour– and you're studying this lion intensely– if I take another step here, that thing's going to charge. And then you'd be stood there, and the trainer would be like, "One more step." And then you take one more step. 00:14:19 **Aleksandra King:** So who are you up against here? A lion or a– 00:14:21 **Joe Phillips:** Lion, elephant. So, yeah, I was going to tell you a story. So– been charged by both, but lions are quite easy, to be honest. They're scaredy-cats at the end of the day. Elephant are really emotional, so you can tell if it's a mock charge– like, they usually pull up five, 10 metres away from you. But buffalo– 00:14:43 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, buffalo, yeah. 00:14:44 **Joe Phillips:** They are another story. 00:14:46 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. 00:14:47 **Joe Phillips:** So probably, yeah, if I was to give you my wildest experience, we... Actually, I'll give you one for lion first. So we were on trail, and this was only, like, day two or something of the training programme, and so I was, like, super naive. I was, "Don't know what to do here." Trainer was leading the walk, and we didn't even get out of camp– we literally went around the corner and bumped into this female lioness. And I think we both just scared each other, but she just mock charged us again and again. 00:15:17 **Aleksandra King:** She's a lioness, so yeah. She's not a scaredy-cat like her husband. 00:15:21 **Joe Phillips:** Exactly. Yeah, you know. 00:15:22 **Aleksandra King:** You don't mess with the lioness. 00:15:23 **Joe Phillips:** No way. But, yeah, we were like, "Hey, hey!" Like, "Stop, stop." You bang the– yeah, 100%– that's what you do, like, display dominance. Nature is a game of dominance. But she wasn't having any of it. She was mock charging, mock charging. And then what did it in the end is my trainer put a bolt in the chamber, and I think that noise scared her off. 00:15:48 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, okay. She's smart. 00:15:49 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, 'cause it was, like, an artificial... you know, like... 00:15:53 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, yeah. 00:15:53 **Joe Phillips:** And she was like, "What's that?" And then ran. 00:15:56 **Aleksandra King:** Clever. Oh, wow. 00:15:58 **Joe Phillips:** But, yeah, so the buffalo one... Sorry– let me know if you want to move on, 'cause I could just talk forever about– 00:16:03 **Aleksandra King:** We'll do buffalo, and then we'll– 00:16:04 **Joe Phillips:** Got it. But, yeah, this was also during training. And the thing about buffalo is they show no emotion. This is why they're– 00:16:14 **Aleksandra King:** They're hard to read. 00:16:15 **Joe Phillips:** They're so hard to read, and they actually cause the most deaths in Africa when you're on safari. But, yeah, we were tracking this one buffalo– we were actually tracking the herd, and then the older bulls usually fall behind the herd, and they're the dangerous ones, 'cause they're on their own. And, anyway, we come across this one, and we basically get too close to it, and it sees we're coming. And all I remember it's doing is, like... all they do is like this: they look at you, and then they're like... in a bovine way, like, curious. And they take one step, and then they just come. And I remember seeing this thing, like, coming like this, and then– 00:16:56 **Aleksandra King:** That Joe from The Apprentice. "He's going to get it." 00:16:59 **Joe Phillips:** "I'm coming for it." And the golden rule is don't run. 00:17:02 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:17:03 **Joe Phillips:** But with buffalo– 00:17:04 **Aleksandra King:** No, no. Run. 00:17:05 **Joe Phillips:** And that's what my trainer did. He literally ran. And before I knew, I was like, "Oh, we're running." And we ran, and the backup trails guide actually fell, and she dropped her rifle. And, yo, it was just hectic. And I remember looking back and seeing this thing coming– came around the corner, went round a tree, and eventually it went off. But, yeah, that's probably the... that's probably the wildest story. 00:17:29 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, that's why you're called Jungle Joe. 00:17:31 **Joe Phillips:** I guess so. 00:17:32 **Aleksandra King:** Do you like that name? 00:17:34 **Joe Phillips:** I think so. I don't know where that originated, but I think, yeah. 00:17:39 **Aleksandra King:** 'Cause I was going to ask– you were quoted as saying you've faced worse than Lord Sugar. I believe you now. Yeah– the buffalo. But isn't a hippo... Hippos are the most dangerous and feisty and unpredictable. I mean, they're also in the water– you only see the little ears and the... 00:17:53 **Joe Phillips:** Exactly, yeah. 00:17:54 **Aleksandra King:** Charge for you. They're aggressive, and they're fast as well. 00:17:58 **Joe Phillips:** So fast. Yeah. I think they cause the most deaths just because they're territorial. And if you're by the riverside, you know, the locals will be fishing or something, and then, yeah, they'll chomp you. 00:18:13 **Aleksandra King:** But also on a more serious note– 'cause you said, like, obviously in a car you feel safer– but, I mean, I've heard stories of people being trampled in cars, squashed and stuff by elephants getting too close and things like that. And it's... I'm never... I always like– yeah, you're in their environment, so it's like that's their world, and you kind of have to be respectful and just– 00:18:33 **Joe Phillips:** You have to be respectful. You don't want to get into those situations. But, like you said, yeah, like, one of the quotes was, "I've faced worse than Lord Sugar." Yeah. So the reason behind that is I feel like these days no one experiences fear. Like, a real fear– like, primitive, raw fear. We don't have it, you know? You might be stressed out if you miss your train, but very rarely these days you have that experience. 00:19:08 **Aleksandra King:** That raw fear. Yeah, I get it. 00:19:09 **Joe Phillips:** Like, business is a game. Money is a game. You'll win it, you'll lose it, and the next day you'll be alive, you know? He's all right. He's a teddy bear. 00:19:17 **Aleksandra King:** He's fine. He's fine. So why did you apply to Apprentice? 00:19:23 **Joe Phillips:** I've watched it for years with my family, and I thought– 00:19:27 **Aleksandra King:** Why not? 00:19:28 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, I thought, "Why not chuck in an application?" I think there were 110,000 applicants. 00:19:32 **Aleksandra King:** There's loads of applicants. It's ridiculous. So many. 00:19:35 **Joe Phillips:** So I submitted this video application and then forgot about it. And then I was actually on horseback in the \[unclear: Kariega?\] River, like, on safari, when they rang me, and they're like, "It's BBC here. We want to chat to you about The Apprentice." I was like, "Is this a–" 00:19:54 **Aleksandra King:** Seriously? 00:19:55 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah– "Is this a joke?" 00:19:57 **Aleksandra King:** Overall, was the experience on The Apprentice as intense as it looks, or how did you find it? 00:20:03 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, it more so. I'd say more... it's more intense than you see on TV. 00:20:09 **Aleksandra King:** Holy crumbs. 00:20:10 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah. So, like, for the boardroom, for example, is what– like, a 20-minute segment or something per episode– whereas in reality you're in there for, like, four hours. 00:20:19 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, it's, like, more sometimes. 00:20:21 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, more. It's a whole day, thrashing it– 00:20:23 **Aleksandra King:** A day, yeah. 00:20:25 **Joe Phillips:** But, yeah, you have a boardroom day, don't you? Especially if you lose, you obviously come– And then each day is, like, you know, you're working six days a week, 18-hour days. 00:20:37 **Aleksandra King:** Not eating properly. 00:20:38 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, I think that's intentional. Yeah, you're not– 00:20:40 **Aleksandra King:** Of course it is. 00:20:41 **Joe Phillips:** You're just... you're fuelled on, like, caffeine, sugar, adrenaline. 00:20:48 **Aleksandra King:** You've got a health issue, that's a problem. 00:20:50 **Joe Phillips:** And that's what I struggled with as well– just a lot of sugar and– 00:20:53 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, I couldn't cope without the food and sleep. Like, that... I can't do that well. I think I've got a very high metabolism. I don't know about you. 00:21:00 **Joe Phillips:** Me too. Yeah. 00:21:01 **Aleksandra King:** I need food all the time. 00:21:02 **Joe Phillips:** 100%. 00:21:03 **Aleksandra King:** You call yourself the James Bond of business. Are you actually the... Really? No offence– like, no offence. 00:21:11 **Joe Phillips:** No, I think that's one of the things they wanted me to– 00:21:14 **Aleksandra King:** They wanted you to do. So you don't really believe. 00:21:17 **Joe Phillips:** No, no, no. Secretly... No. I'll tell you the story behind that. So when you apply, you have to submit a video. And I told you– I decided to apply the day before I flew out to Africa. So when I landed in South Africa, I thought, "Why not? I'll apply." And when I was getting the boat into the lodge I was working at, I thought, "This is a better time than any." So I gave my friend– my phone– to my colleague, and she said... just, "Film me getting out the boat." It was the first thing that came to my mind. I was like, "I'm Joe Phillips. I'm the James Bond of the business world." And then I regret saying that, 'cause then they were like– 00:21:53 **Aleksandra King:** "Use it." You've got to... you've got to be good on camera. You've got to give them what... You've got to be a character– 00:21:59 **Joe Phillips:** I think that's what they wanted. 00:22:00 **Aleksandra King:** To stand out, or it ain't going to happen. How has your life changed since The Apprentice? It's been, like, a year now. 00:22:06 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah. 00:22:07 **Aleksandra King:** I mean, like, a good year. So how has it been? Have you enjoyed it? Do you feel famous? Do you not feel famous? 00:22:13 **Joe Phillips:** I absolutely loved it. Like, I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to go on the show. It's helped the business, but not as much as I thought. 00:22:23 **Aleksandra King:** You're kind of on your own when you get out, yeah. It's not like a big– 00:22:26 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah. The exposure is great. Like, so for my... most of my sales come through my retailers– like, I wholesale to them. But I do have an e-commerce section that equates to, like, 20% of my revenue. But when you go on You're Fired– you know, the show after The Apprentice– they give you, like, one sentence where you can plug your business. So, "So what's the business?" And I remember I said something... I was like, "I run a sustainable lip care company called Surf Balm." And I remember watching it back with my phone on the side of the thing, and I said that one sentence, and 10 seconds later my phone– bing, bing, bing, bing, bing– like, all these sales coming in. It was ridiculous. 00:23:10 **Aleksandra King:** Are you doing that now still? You're doing that? In terms of the fame and stuff, do you feel famous? Yes, no, a little bit? 00:23:18 **Joe Phillips:** It definitely drops off. So, like, when the show comes out, it's mad, and you go from zero to 100, and people recognise you and take pictures everywhere, and then it slowly drops off, and people... which is obvious. But it starts off with people saying, like, you know, in the street, "You're Joe from The Apprentice." And then it goes to, "You're that guy from The Apprentice." 00:23:42 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, to the... that guy. And then it goes... and then now it's like... You've got to make the effort to stay relevant. But also, if you do stay on these platforms, you'll find that actually you're left with, at the end of it– because, I mean, I was in 2016– I mean, we're talking about a while now– but you're left with sort of, like, a community that they just love what you're doing. Interested in you, and you're left... Because once you've been on TV, you're sort of entertainment. That's what you are. You're a source of entertainment. You know, the board– they're looking, "What's she doing? What's Joe doing today? What's he posted?" It's just like TV for them. So you're left with quite a dedicated, loyal fan base, and they stay with you– like, if... I mean, if you put the effort in, you can. But obviously you get some weird– 00:24:23 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, my God. Weirdos. Can we talk about the weirdos? 00:24:26 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. What's the weirdest weirdo thing– fan-type thing– that's happened? Come on, say it. I'll tell you mine, you tell me yours. You go first. Okay, I'll go first. 00:24:37 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, thank you. 00:24:38 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. I've had... okay– there's... what I'm... obviously, like, indecent things being sent is, like, I don't like... Obviously, okay, that's... But what's this thing with feet? 00:24:50 **Joe Phillips:** Yes. My one was about feet as well. 00:24:53 **Aleksandra King:** Why? What's your thing? What is this? No, no– I think feet is, for me, the... the weird– I find that disgusting. 00:24:59 **Joe Phillips:** Like, obviously the... It's a thing... a lot of people... I've had a lot of messages. Even... I did a half– Ironman last weekend and posted a couple pictures of that, and some of the messages I got off the back of that were... 00:25:17 **Aleksandra King:** About your feet? 00:25:18 **Joe Phillips:** Oh, yeah. Yeah. Most of them are feet related. 00:25:22 **Aleksandra King:** No, that's completely creepy. So do you have, like, wild, mad fans messaging– 00:25:29 **Joe Phillips:** Feet fans, yeah. Yeah, definitely. 00:25:31 **Aleksandra King:** So, yeah, you love your fitness, don't you? You're very into... So what's, like... do you follow any fads? Do you do the cold plunging? Do you do, like, keto? Do you do what– like, the obsession with the gut? Like, what's your thing? Tell me. 00:25:44 **Joe Phillips:** I love fitness. I love all sports– a massive rugby player. I love football, cricket, tennis, golf– any sort of sport I love. But I don't follow any fads, actually. 00:25:55 **Aleksandra King:** You don't cold plunge or anything like this? 00:25:57 **Joe Phillips:** No, I don't. Actually... to be honest with you, it annoys me when I see it on Instagram. It's just another... it's like a fad. It's, like, people do it to post it on Instagram type thing. 00:26:08 **Aleksandra King:** So how many hours of sport do you do a day? Do you dedicate time a day to do sport? Every day? Seven days? Six days? 00:26:17 **Joe Phillips:** Probably six days a week. 00:26:18 **Aleksandra King:** Six days a week. You're properly– 00:26:20 **Joe Phillips:** Or seven– six, seven. Yeah. It depends on what training programme I'm going through. But it'll usually be, like... I recently did a half Ironman, so the training for that is pretty intense. 00:26:33 **Aleksandra King:** So what does that entail? Tell me. Half Ironman. 00:26:35 **Joe Phillips:** So... so triathlon– so it's swim, bike, run. 00:26:38 **Aleksandra King:** Yep. So how many Ks? 00:26:40 **Joe Phillips:** So the half... the half is 2K swim. 00:26:44 **Aleksandra King:** That's quite difficult, yeah. 00:26:45 **Joe Phillips:** The swim's hard. 00:26:46 **Aleksandra King:** 2K is difficult, yeah. 00:26:48 **Joe Phillips:** A 90K bike. 00:26:50 **Aleksandra King:** Yep. 00:26:51 **Joe Phillips:** And then a half marathon, so 21K. 00:26:54 **Aleksandra King:** 21K running. Oh, gosh. Are you a good runner? You– no? 00:26:59 **Joe Phillips:** I wouldn't say I'm a natural runner, no. 00:27:01 **Aleksandra King:** Okay. You don't belong to, like, an athletics club or, like– 00:27:04 **Joe Phillips:** No, no, no. I've never... I've more been, like, a rugby player, so... which isn't really built for, like, long-distance running. 00:27:10 **Aleksandra King:** No, but, like, to elevate your running, you should join, like, some sort of, you know... 00:27:13 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, yeah. 00:27:13 **Aleksandra King:** You can do your intervals. 00:27:15 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, and I did that. So, like, my training would be for triathlon... in the mornings– I usually... I'm an early riser anyway, so I get up at, like, half five, something– go do a couple hours in the gym before work. At lunchtime I'll go for, like, a walk, just– 00:27:30 **Aleksandra King:** A couple hours? So what, like, two hours, an hour? 00:27:32 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, hour and a half, two hours in the gym. 00:27:33 **Aleksandra King:** So that's in the morning. Yeah. Then lunch you– 00:27:36 **Joe Phillips:** Lunch I get an hour to... and I'm so, like– 00:27:39 **Aleksandra King:** That's three and a half. 00:27:41 **Joe Phillips:** That was just... that's just a walk. 00:27:42 **Aleksandra King:** That was just training– training for this big event as well. 00:27:45 **Joe Phillips:** And then the evenings would be my, like, my endurance. So I'd go bike or run. 00:27:51 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. I think swimming is quite tiring, but it's such a nice sport. Working everything, isn't it? 00:27:55 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, it's so tiring. 00:27:57 **Aleksandra King:** But it's exhausting. 00:27:58 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, I remember doing it for the first time... Yeah, I'm going to do an Ironman, which is, like... that's, like, 6K for... and I did one length of this 100-metre pool, and I was like, "I can't do this." 00:28:09 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. Especially when you're starting, especially when you... I mean, but probably... you probably swam a lot as a kid, or not? Did you? 00:28:15 **Joe Phillips:** I used to, and I actually worked as a swim coach in Zim for the school kids there. But that was... the coach used to just... the head coach used to just teach them to swim. These kids would be crying– "I want to swim... it's so scary." 00:28:31 **Aleksandra King:** So scary when you're starting out, yeah. 00:28:33 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, but he would get... his tactic would be, like– 00:28:35 **Aleksandra King:** Chuck them in. 00:28:37 **Joe Phillips:** They would be, like, grabbing onto the end of the pool, and they'd be like... "Let go of the side." 00:28:42 **Aleksandra King:** Let go. 00:28:43 **Joe Phillips:** And, "But I don't want to." And then he– "Let go, or I'll get Joe to take you to the deep end." And he would get me to take these kids and just drop them in the deep end. 00:28:53 **Aleksandra King:** How horrible. 00:28:53 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, but they learned to swim quickly. 00:28:56 **Aleksandra King:** They didn't have a choice. 00:28:59 **Joe Phillips:** Literally. 00:29:00 **Aleksandra King:** They had no choice. No... my dad– my dad did that to me. I remember– I trusted him, I trusted him. And then he took me into the deep end, and I was like, "Dad... oh, it's so nice." And he'd just let go. He's pushing me... I'm going, "Dad," and he's like, "Bye"– he's sort of moving away, and I'm like, "Daddy." 00:29:18 **Joe Phillips:** And then you just– 00:29:19 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah– "Daddy, Daddy." And then swim to Daddy. But, yeah, it's... yeah, it's scary. But, like, in South Africa, I remember growing up in pools– like, that's what you do in the summer, you spend your whole entire day in a pool, and it's just so nice. It's, like, just, you know... Sometimes as an adult now, when I get in the pool and I'm in, like, you know, on holiday or whatever, and I feel like, oh, yeah, childhood, you know? This is, like... You're a good swimmer, because you've swum so much in your life. You're, like, "I'm confident in the water." 00:29:44 **Joe Phillips:** Exactly, yeah. 00:29:45 **Aleksandra King:** Don't mind that. But, yeah– I mean, so on this thing– remember I mentioned that, like, in South Africa obviously I got to know all the animals, and, you know, and obviously Zimbabwe and all these countries, and you kind of get to know those kind of insects and those kind of birds and blah, blah, blah. And then when I got here, I just, like... my one thing– I thought when I buy a house, I'm going to make sure it has the biggest garden ever, so that I can have, like, my own little wildlife nature reserve in... So, like, make a massive... You know, in COVID I dug up the... I got really frustrated, so I dug a pond single-handedly. 00:30:18 **Joe Phillips:** No way. 00:30:18 **Aleksandra King:** But, like, now I've improved it– you know, we've had time– and I've made a mass... it's like a lake. 00:30:22 **Joe Phillips:** Have you got fish in there or– 00:30:23 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, but... but I got natural ones. I don't want to do this whole goldfish thing, so I got the ones that are in the Chil– 'cause I live in the Chilterns. So I've got the ones that are naturally in streams, that occur next to everything else– so I want the newts and all of that. So, you know, you get to know these guys as well. And you think, shame, 'cause, you know, like, it's almost like everyone thinks of safari, like, that's the place of conservation. But what about the creatures in the UK? You know, you've got all these cute little... and, like, the great crested newts– the one with a little thing above his... You'll know. So, like, those guys, and they, you know, they're threatened, so you've got to look after them. And people fill up their ponds, obviously, because of safety and stuff like that– even though you can get a cover and it's fine, you know, a net thing. But you sort of get to know these guys, and then you want to protect them as well, and, like, the birds and all of that and the little animals here, so... 00:31:07 **Joe Phillips:** Definitely, yeah. 00:31:08 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. I mean, do you... what... where do you live at the moment? And do you... have you got to know the creatures here? What do you think about them? Or is it, like, "Nah, I care about the buffalo." 00:31:16 **Joe Phillips:** No, I care about all creatures. And obviously, big or small, they all play a part in the ecosystem they live in. So I do love it, but I've never... like, to be honest with you, I've never had the same passion as I have for African wildlife. I think 'cause I just grew up there, and I find it thrilling, and I love it. So in terms of, like, indulging in nature here, it was actually more about the marine life, 'cause I studied in Exeter, but Falmouth, you know, on the coast. So my uni experience was very much, like, fishing and surfing, and you'd be bobbing out back and this seal would just come pop up. 00:32:05 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, that's so cool. They're like dogs, the seals. 00:32:08 **Joe Phillips:** They're awesome. And that's actually how... that's how my business, Surf Balm, started. Was because I set up this business at university supplying merchandise and whatnot to societies and stuff. But the lip balm was... you know, we'd go on surfs, and I remember seeing the high tide mark just littered with plastic. 00:32:29 **Aleksandra King:** Oh, God. 00:32:29 **Joe Phillips:** And I hated it. I just– 00:32:31 **Aleksandra King:** Kills you, doesn't it? It's just the saddest thing. 00:32:34 **Joe Phillips:** And loads of plastic Chapsticks. You know, everyone used lip balm, but, like, you know– 00:32:37 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah, that sort of... I know... yeah, the tube thing. 00:32:40 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah. And I remember thinking, like, "Why does that have to be plastic?" So that's how, like, sustainable lip care started. 00:32:48 **Aleksandra King:** Just back to the conservation stuff. I was just... just thought of something. I think, you know, like, the whole David Attenborough thing. And he did... I mean, did he do stuff in the UK? I think he did UK stuff. 00:32:58 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, he's done loads in that as well. 00:32:59 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. I think it'll be good for you to learn about the UK wildlife. I think you've got... you've got that... I understand the passion for Africa, I definitely do. But also I think it's so nice for people to learn about what's sort of in front of them, and appreciate that, and look after it, and open up that world– it becomes– 00:33:16 **Joe Phillips:** Like, you don't realise that some people that live in the city, they never experienced nature. 00:33:21 **Aleksandra King:** No. 00:33:22 **Joe Phillips:** But it's actually on their doorstep, you know? They can find it. So, actually, I was working with the BBC recently about doing a podcast for kids about nature. And it's, like... it's basically nature on your doorstep. So no matter where you are, you can... yeah, you can experience and find nature, even if it's just in your back garden. 00:33:42 **Aleksandra King:** Yeah. 00:33:43 **Joe Phillips:** So that's what I'd love to do. 00:33:45 **Aleksandra King:** I think that's really cool, because it's developing it as a kid– to get close to it– that then you care about the creatures more. Whereas if you... And I always go back to this horrible story. I used to have an ex-boyfriend once, okay? And when we were in Seville, I felt sorry for a donkey, 'cause the donkey was, like, very hot, and, like, they kept putting people on, and the donkey had to walk. And we're talking about 45-degree heat, and I was just, like, thinking, "That's cruel." Like, "Just stop now. It's enough." I mean, I know that they sort of grow... the animals have evolved in that environment. But to have these big tourists and... And I felt really sorry. And then I went up to the guys with the donkey, and I was like, "Listen, I'm going to give you this money. I want the donkey to sit out the next few rides, and give it water, and put it in the shade." And this ex-boyfriend got really mad at me. He's like, "What are you doing, man?" He's like, "What are you doing? Just let them do their thing. It's an animal." I was like, "You're an animal." 00:34:34 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah. 00:34:34 **Aleksandra King:** "You're an animal." Because... but he never grew up with that– close to animals. That's what I'm saying: if you don't... if they're not, like, your friends, animals, and you don't sort of form that care for them, then you'll never care about them. 00:34:46 **Joe Phillips:** How can you say that... So important, yeah. And that's why you're right– like, education as kids. If you can expose them to that as kids, I feel like when they're older and you say, like, "Don't litter," or, "Don't... plastic," they'll understand why and the reason. 00:35:01 **Aleksandra King:** Plastic thing kills me. Yeah, yeah– on our shores. It's, like, I'm always picking up litter. Like... it, like, irritates my family when we go for walks. I'm, like... I just can't. It's, like, no one's going to pick it up after you. It's so– 00:35:13 **Joe Phillips:** Terrible. 00:35:13 **Aleksandra King:** No... but the other... just one last topic on, like... 'cause if you do get to know, like, the UK wildlife more intimately... and it means– 'cause I live in the countryside now, and I've sort of... and I go for these walks through farmers' fields a lot with my dog and stuff. And then I watch the wildlife, and I see all these little butterflies and moths and everything, and you can see them feeding on the little strips, the little alleyways where you can walk. And then the field is just barren, because it's been sprayed with insecticides and poison, and it's dead. And sort of... you think... and it's, like, hectares– like, basically all the... you know. And then you've just got these little strips, and it's beautiful. And in these little strips you can hear the little crickets, and you can see the butterflies, and then the little bees will come, and it's, like... and the little bird will come and have a little berry or something, because that's alive. So you don't need the insecticides. Like, why not roll that... I mean, I know they're more expensive, but maybe there's ways to work things out, you know? 00:36:09 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, yeah. I remember even learning in, like, A-level geography or whatever it was– I remember learning how important hedgerows are in the UK. 00:36:17 **Aleksandra King:** That's it. 00:36:18 **Joe Phillips:** Because, like, you fly over the UK, and you can see the whole countryside is scattered by fields with insecticides and whatnot, and then bordering it are the hedgerows. 00:36:26 **Aleksandra King:** That's where it is. 00:36:27 **Joe Phillips:** And those are the corridors that have your– 00:36:30 **Aleksandra King:** Yes– all your wildlife. And also gardens. So whoever has a garden or even a balcony– like, if they look after that and stop spraying it with rubbish that you don't need, and just sort of let it be, then those are the little havens. Those are little nature places for these guys. So what's next for you? 00:36:44 **Joe Phillips:** Um– 00:36:44 **Aleksandra King:** Mini David Attenborough. 00:36:48 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah. I guess... Oh, man. My personality has always been split down the middle. Like, I love nature conservation, and the other side, I love business. In an ideal world, I'd love to combine both, and by doing something like setting up my own safari lodge or something like that, so I can contribute to conservation and nature but also run a business, you know? But for the more immediate future, I'm loving my job at the moment at the GDS Group, and then... and also my business– I love doing that on the side. In terms of the nature side of things– I might... and I can't talk too much about this, but I've been asked to go on a show that's more nature-orientated. 00:37:38 **Aleksandra King:** Really? Ah. So you can't tell us more about it, but– 00:37:42 **Joe Phillips:** Unfortunately not. 00:37:42 **Aleksandra King:** 'Cause I was going to ask you– Love Island? There was something saying... 00:37:47 **Joe Phillips:** No, I know they were asking. 00:37:48 **Aleksandra King:** But there's another show maybe? 00:37:50 **Joe Phillips:** Yeah, potentially. 00:37:51 **Aleksandra King:** Okay, so basically watch this space. 00:37:54 **Joe Phillips:** We'll see. We'll see if it happens, but if it does, it'll be fantastic. 00:37:59 **Aleksandra King:** Well, Joe, it's been great. 00:38:01 **Joe Phillips:** It's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me. 00:38:03 **Aleksandra King:** Thanks for coming on. 00:38:04 **Joe Phillips:** Pleasure. ## Follow Aleksandra - [Instagram](https://instagram.com/king.aleksandra) - [X](https://x.com/aleksandrabking) - [LinkedIn](https://www.linkedin.com/in/aleksandraking) - [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@AleksandraKing) - [Aleksandra's Inner Circle](https://laylo.com/aleksandraking) Business and collaborations: [aleksandraking.com](https://aleksandraking.com) | [aleksandra@aleksandraking.com](mailto:aleksandra@aleksandraking.com) *The views expressed by guests are their own and do not reflect those of Aleksandra, the podcast, or its producers. This podcast is for entertainment only.*