Derrick McManus: Shot 14 Times, on The BEYOND Podcast with Aleksandra King

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the 3rd of May, 1994. It was actually a 
nice day. So, nothing out of the ordinary,

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but it became it became a very out of the 
ordinary day. My name is Derek McManus. I'm

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a South Australian special forces police officer. 
I was shot 14 times with a high powered rifle.

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Force was attending a house at Nurut to arrest 
wanted man Tony Ger when he was shot 14 times.

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We were going there to arrest him. The next 
thing I know is I'm just falling to the ground.

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Did you know what happened to you? I feel two 
bullets hit my left thigh and it felt like a

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sledgehammer just driving into my thigh. I lost 
about 30% of the muscle in my thigh while I'm

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lying on the ground. He is still shooting. He 
fired 18 shooting you. Yeah, he fired 18. No,

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he was committed to finishing that job. It 
doesn't stop me doing what I need to do.

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I missed his head by just millimeters. I fired 13 
times. [music] You were really in a bad state and

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brave enough to still fight. Brave enough. Well 
trained enough. My forearm's broken [music] in two

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places. Folds backwards along my forearm. I was 
on the ground for 3 hours. He fired 2,000 rounds.

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Dust is falling into my eyes. And believe it 
or not, I relaxed in that moment. Very big.

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Serious mind control. The one thing that kept 
me going was do that. The doctor said I was 30

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seconds from death and I would have died. Anything 
better than death is a bonus. He stayed in the

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house for another 38 hours. It's the longest siege 
ever in Australia. And today he walks amongst us.

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Derek, let's go back back to Tuesday the 3rd 
of May 1994 in Adelaide near the Barasa Valley.

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You wake up in the morning.

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What does it feel like? Ordinary day. That day was 
a very ordinary day. Uh I had my cousin who was

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a builder finishing off a verander at the back of 
my house. Uh it was going to be finished that day.

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Uh I had a conversation with my wife before 
I left for work. Uh and she said to me,

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"When you get home tonight, we're going to have 
a cup of tea uh scon jam and cream underneath

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our new ver when you get home." It was a very 
ordinary day. Good weather. Beautiful weather.

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Uh, and it was May, so it should have been 
cold, but it was it was actually a nice day.

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So, nothing out of the ordinary, but it 
became a very different type of day. It

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became a very out of the ordinary day. So, at 
what point did things change? [sighs and gasps]

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The majority of the day was a very ordinary 
day. Um, even when we got called to say we

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had a high-risisk arrest, that was our job. Who 
called you? Um, I was uh I and I laughy uh because

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I was actually at work, but I had a lot of sporty 
involvement while I was at work because we got

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paid to stay fit. So, I was actually out playing 
police basketball at the time that my uh section

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the the boss made a phone call and said, "Derek, 
you need to get back here. We've got a high-risisk

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arrest uh in the Brass Valley." Uh, and they 
said it was with the offender, uh, Grosser. Uh,

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and I had been involved with two jobs with this 
person in the past, so I knew exactly who it was.

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Um, and, uh, when that call came in, most people 
think, "Oh my gosh, that must have been scary."

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Not a chance. We were trained for this, and 
this is the work we love to do. So, when I

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got told there was a high-risisk arrest with GRA, 
it was like, "Excellent. More work." You thought,

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"Excellent." despite knowing that GSA is a tell 
us about GSA. What is he like? So he's uh [sighs]

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innocuous character essentially. He had been 
investigated for fraud offenses uh probably

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3 years prior to the 3rd of May. And uh when he 
was being investigated by the uh detectives at the

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time, we got a small hint that he might be violent 
because he said, "Any cop who comes to my house is

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going to get shot." So we had a small hint. Um but 
we went to his house on that occasion. It was a

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midnight uh raid on his house uh because that's 
the time that he made the threat. It was late

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at night, so we went straight there to take his 
weapons off of him. And uh we did a belly crawl

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through his paddics and um up to his house and we 
were listening at the doors and the windows to see

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if he was preparing weapons. Okay. Okay. So, let 
let's just take take it a bit slower. So, you knew

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that he was he might be violent. He's obviously a 
baddie. You've dealt with him before. You weren't

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afraid. It's business as usual to get called 
to this high-risk situation that's going on.

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You stop the basketball, you go get changed 
into what? Do you have vests? Do you have

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special equipment that you're putting on before 
you go there or? Yeah, absolutely. So, we uh we

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uh went back to base which was in the city 
which is an hour away from uh the Barasa Valley.

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We had a very good briefing there. We drove out to 
the Barasa Valley police station and had another

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briefing with the police who were on the ground 
who wanted to arrest him on that day. Um, and

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then we started putting on our special equipment, 
our vests, our drop holsters for our weapons, um,

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and other little bits and pieces. Do did you feel 
was there a part of you that felt some protection

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from putting these vests on? I mean, did it 
psychologically when you put on a bulletproof vest

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and the outfit for combat? I I really love 
explaining bulletproof vest to people. Okay.

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Because they ain't bulletproof and I am living 
proof that they ain't bulletproof. Okay. Okay. So,

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we call them flack vests. They stop a certain 
type of bullet, but only up to a certain limit.

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Uh, so we know what their capability 
is, and that's the most important thing.

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We know what they do do. We know what they don't 
do. So, yes, there is some protection from them.

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Um, but they only cover the vital organs. 
They don't cover your head. They don't

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cover your arms. They don't cover your legs. 
So, um, there is some protection from them.

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Okay. So, you Okay. Well, that's quite scary then. 
[laughter] It's a bit like, right. Yeah. cuz you

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can't bulletproof your whole self. But okay, so 
you get dressed and how many of you are there? Um,

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there was five star group officers and we picked 
up a guy along the way uh another police officer

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with a video camera. So the video of this 
is online and I'm sure you're going to be

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putting it along uh aligned with the podcast as 
well. Um, and we took the videographer because

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we knew that Gracer was a complainer. Every time 
we went there, he complained about what we did,

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how we did it, and it was his word against our 
word. So, we thought if if we've got a video,

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it's the first time ever in South Australia 
that an arrest had been uh caught on video.

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And we then went to Thank God, body warn cameras 
after that. Many years after that. Okay. Okay. So,

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that was probably Yeah. the start of of everyone 
wearing the body cams. Okay. So, um, so you

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get in the car, there's five of you, you pick 
up the videographer guy, and you get in, you're

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driving there, and and what's going through your 
head going towards this this violent guy. Still

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still excitement. Absolutely. Um, why why are 
you excited? Because that's what we train for.

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And and that's what we love to do. And yes, 
it sounds bizarre that you're going into this

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high risk situation. Um, but we know that that's 
what we take on when we take on that job. In fact,

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just a little uh anecdote. We were sitting 
watching TV in the meal room of Star Group office

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and there was an advertise sorry a news uh 
briefing of a hijack of a plane in Indonesia

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and they said they were going to fly the plane to 
either Perth or Adelaide. Everybody in our office

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started going Adelaide. Adelaide. Now we know it's 
dangerous. We know it's high risk but we train for

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it. We want to be able to use those skills. Um, 
okay. And and if you go into these things nervous,

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um, then you're not going to be the the high 
performer that you need to be. Okay. So, you need

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to go in there. You're all well trained and all of 
you are feeling that even the poor videographer.

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Uh, the videographer uh knew that he he had the 
protection of us. He was never going to go in

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deep, so he was going to always stay back. Um, 
so he had the protection of us. Um, now I've

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just thinking through what I've just said, uh, 
we're all excited, but we are risk managers,

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not risk takers. There is always that edge of this 
is dangerous. It needs to be treated seriously.

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But we go in confident knowing our skills, 
our training, our distractions that we have

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and our uh, tactics. Okay. So, what time 
is it now when you're driving there? Uh,

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so we leave the city around about 12:00. We 
get to the Brussa Valley around about 1. uh

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we have a very in-depth briefing uh and 
we get out to his property at probably

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2:15. Okay. In fact, it was 2:15. So about 
2:15 in the afternoon, you arrive. All of you

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describe his property to us. His property is a 
rural property um in in Australia. It's uh he

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has about 20 acres and he's only renting it. It's 
not his. He has about 20 acres and it's got some

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vineyards, some orchard, uh, and some just baron 
land. It was an old pigory, so he's got some

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pigsty there as well. Uh, he's a man who has, uh, 
a good deal of paranoia in his personality. So,

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he keeps his front gate locked and he gets in 
by actually driving past his front gate for

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about 150 m and then there's a gap in the fence 
and he drives in through that gap in the fence.

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So people who are coming to us property think the 
gate's locked. I've got to stop here. We obviously

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had the intelligence that we could go in through 
that gap in the fence as well. So we went straight

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past in through the gap in the fence, drove 
through the orchard, uh which was a a harrowed

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field essentially and very rocky, very and you can 
see this in the video as we're driving in. Okay.

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Okay. [clears throat] So you're getting really 
close now and you're on his land. Yep. Oh, and you

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asked me what was I thinking at this time. So many 
things running through my mind. Um, first of all,

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what did the house look like? What was the best 
vantage points for us? We knew we were going to

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the front door of the house. Uh, we'd been to 
that property before, so I had a good idea as

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to uh, what that all looked like. But I was also 
going through the fact that if he starts shooting,

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what will I do? My role in the entry was to be the 
first person to the door to pop the screen door,

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which would obviously be locked. Uh, and we 
had a special tool for that. I was then going

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to step aside. Somebody's going to come in with 
a battering ram. Another person would be first

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person in. Person with a battering ram would be 
second. And I was going to go third in. So, if I

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was third in and he starts shooting, how do I give 
some protection to my mates further down the line?

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And I thought to myself, well, I can just fire and 
give him something to worry about. Fire high and

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around my my uh my partners. Um, and then it ran 
through my mind, if I just start firing randomly

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into the house, as I need to do to try and stop 
him, [snorts] I may hit his wife who is in the

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house. And if I hit his wife, how am I going to 
feel about that? He also had two young children,

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two and four, in the house. If I hit one of them, 
how am I going to feel about that? Um, and it's

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not just at the moment I shoot them. It is in the 
days, weeks, months afterwards, and then the years

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afterwards. This is all running through my mind. 
So, in this journey, you're in the car, all of

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you. There's six of you now. Two cars. Yes. Okay. 
Two cars. Six of you. You're driving through. You

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went past his front gate. You went to the side 
gate. You're going over all these rocks and things

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into this all these acres of land. Um, and this is 
going through your head. You're thinking, "Right,

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this is the plan. This is the process. This is 
what I do. These are the risks. His children,

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his wife, all of those really valid, very serious, 
very, very serious things. And, um, it's getting

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serious now. You're you're approaching and 
and and it's all it's all landing, isn't it?

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You park the car. How close to the house? Pretty 
much on Yeah, pretty much on the doorstep.

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Uh probably within 10 m of the house. Within 10 
meters. So, he's going to know you've arrived.

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Absolutely. It's clear. And you all come out. 
Are you shouting? Are you Are you quiet? Are you

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what what's what's the um little bit of background 
uh again uh prior to us arriving we put a sniper

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into the bush for the last 20 minutes. So we 
he's been watching the house and radioing us with

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information about where he is and what he's doing. 
So we know he's in the house. We know he's going

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to hear us coming up. Uh there's no too much. He 
didn't know the sniper was there. He did. Well,

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yeah. There's a deeper story to that. He had some 
idea that somebody else was around the place,

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but he didn't know it was a sniper in the bush. 
Okay. So, he doesn't know about that. But you

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arrive and you get out of the car and you're 
not trying to be super quiet or anything like

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that. No, no, no. We're not trying to be super 
quiet. We we walk straight up to the house.

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Uh, and you can see in the video, uh, 
we go into very much protective mode.

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Uh, I pull my pistol out and put it back down 
next to my leg so it's not too aggressive.

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One of the other guys pulls his pistol out and 
he's got it out at a 45° angle pointing towards

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the ground as he approaches the house. We know 
this guy has potential to be dangerous. So, we

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are taking the protective measures without being 
as too intimidating if we don't have Where's the

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videographer right now? Uh the videographer has 
gone to a shed which is about 10 m from the house

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and he is just filming towards the front door. 
Filming towards the front door. So, who knocks on

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the front door? The sergeant uh of the team knocks 
on the front door. uh and he calls out uh Mr. ger

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it's the police we want to talk to you uh there's 
no answer now one of the things that we uh have in

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Star Group is we are very very meticulous in our 
training in our briefings and in our operation

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we know exactly what we have to do when we get 
there everybody has their role but we also have

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the ability to go do you know something I have 
just seen a better option let's go and have a look

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at that option and everybody can just roll from 
what we've planned to do into this other option

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and everybody will still know exactly what they 
need to do because we've been through these

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scenarios in training hundreds of times. So, is 
that what happened? You rolled into a different

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option or he's still standing at the front door. 
He he's not answering. So, so what do you do? So,

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uh we rock up. Sergeant knocks calls. There's no 
answer. We know he's inside. Uh I look down the

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side of the house cuz I'm right on the corner of 
the house and I look down the side and I see that

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there's a glass sliding door. Now, a glass sliding 
door is going to be easier to move through.

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Smash the door and move into it. Going to be more 
efficient, more effective, safer, faster. Well,

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I thought to myself, I'm going to go down and make 
an assessment as to whether the door is open or

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not, and then come back and tell the sergeant. It 
is five steps for me to get to that sliding door

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and five steps for me to come back. Um, I walk 
down the side of the house. Uh, I have to move

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out away from the house because my shadow is being 
cast towards the house. And so as I pass a window,

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I move away from the house. So the shadow is on 
the ground, not on the window. Smart. Smart. Yeah.

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It's all part of our training. It it's it's, you 
know, when you're in that environment. That's a

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uh a basic thing to do. Uh I stand against a brick 
wall. I hear the sergeant knock a second time

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and call out a second time. I then roll around the 
corner and I have to go close to the door to reach

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out to see whether it is open or not. Um Okay. So, 
how how many how is this happening quite quickly?

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All of this within seconds. Within seconds. Still 
no one's answering. No. No one's That's really

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scary. You know, you know he's home. He knows 
you're there. To be quite honest, that's normal.

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That's very We have We have done this hundreds 
of times where we knock on the door, there's no

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answer. So, do you think he's hiding right now or 
he's just buying time or he's preparing or getting

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something? What's he What do you think he's doing? 
What did you think he was doing at that time? Oh,

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I guess we don't try to think into their 
logic too much at that point because it's

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kind of an assumption that if he's not answering 
the door, then he's just playing dog and hoping uh

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that we'll go away. Yeah. Um, but obviously with 
our sniper in the bush, we know he's inside, you

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know. So, he probably knows you're not going away 
as well. Oh, he has absolutely every knowledge of

0:17:35.400,0:17:41.280
that. Uh, he is. And this is going back to the 
time when we only had uh VHS recorders and all

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that sort of stuff. But he would record every time 
Star Group came on TV, he would record them and uh

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itemize, write down, you know, who people are and 
uh learn what our tactics were. So he was well and

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truly aware of what Star Group was and what they 
do. He had that much paranoia in his personality.

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Yeah. Paranoid is dangerous. Yeah. Absolutely. 
Now we were going there to arrest him for a

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Right. So it's not as if it's one or two. It's not 
insignificant. Uh and he'd been in court the day

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before and uh feigned an attack of fainting and 
had to be taken to the hospital. As soon as he got

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to the hospital, he's signed himself out and gone 
home because he knew he was going to be sentenced

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to jail. And so he's now at home. And that's 
the reason we've been asked to go and arrest him

0:18:31.280,0:18:36.680
to bring him back to court so that he could face 
the judge. So he's he's playing the system. He's

0:18:37.400,0:18:45.000
uh you know, he's he's like a fine violin. Like 
a fine violin. Lots of crime committed. He knows

0:18:45.000,0:18:49.000
it. He knows he's in trouble, but he's always 
trying to find his little way out, isn't he?

0:18:49.600,0:18:55.520
thing that he can do. So, he's somewhere at 
that point. You've gone to make an assessment

0:18:55.520,0:18:59.840
of this door and you're watching carefully to 
make sure you're not giving anything away here.

0:18:59.840,0:19:05.240
In the meantime, the second knock has happened. 
Still no answer. What happens next? So, I

0:19:05.240,0:19:12.080
move up to this glass sliding door and I know that 
there's um a gap in the curtain which is about

0:19:14.560,0:19:23.840
400 mm. Okay. uh 400 mm. Yeah, about that. Um and 
I know there's a possibility that I could be seen,

0:19:23.840,0:19:30.080
but it's a minor possibility. Risk manager, 
not risktaker. Um the chances of being seen

0:19:30.080,0:19:37.080
are minimal. Um however, unfortunately for me, 
where we were going to come in through his office,

0:19:37.080,0:19:42.680
he was standing in the hallway at the back of that 
with a loaded rifle waiting for us to come in.

0:19:42.680,0:19:47.760
from his vantage point there. He could 
also see the sliding door where I was,

0:19:47.760,0:19:54.960
which was just fortuitous for him. Um, and he's 
glanced across there. He saw me in the gap.

0:19:54.960,0:20:00.000
Okay. Did you see Did you see him? I did 
not see him. So, he saw you, but you didn't

0:20:00.000,0:20:04.360
know that at the time. So, according to 
you, there's no one there. Uh, as far as

0:20:05.880,0:20:12.640
in the back of my mind, there's always a chance. 
But um the sun was from my right hand side,

0:20:12.640,0:20:17.840
the windows on my left hand side. It's dark inside 
the house. So that door, that glass door becomes a

0:20:17.840,0:20:25.920
mirror. Okay? So I can't see in. Um and that's 
just an assessment that I knew was a thing.

0:20:25.920,0:20:37.360
Uh but the next thing I know is I'm just falling 
to the ground. Okay. Okay. So with you now know

0:20:37.360,0:20:42.920
okay years later and in the process of of 
going through it you now know where he was

0:20:42.920,0:20:49.240
at the time you didn't know but you felt there's 
a chance that that he could possibly be there

0:20:49.240,0:20:53.840
but you needed to check you had to make 
that assessment so you made the assessment

0:20:55.440,0:21:01.040
and then you're on the ground. Yes. That was the 
only association in your head at this point. I'm

0:21:01.040,0:21:05.960
on the ground. Did you know what happened to 
you? So, even before I reach the ground, um

0:21:07.200,0:21:14.200
I'm starting to fall and I'm berating myself. This 
is happening in slow motion and I'm falling and

0:21:14.200,0:21:21.080
I'm berating myself for being so stupid. How can I 
be falling? There was absolutely no reason for it

0:21:21.080,0:21:26.600
in my mind. Um and halfway to the ground, uh I 
looked at that sliding door again and there were

0:21:26.600,0:21:31.720
small round holes in the glass. Oh no. And then 
I heard the sound of gunfire in the distance,

0:21:32.280,0:21:39.400
but I hadn't felt any pain. I hadn't felt any felt 
any um just the feeling of falling and getting

0:21:39.400,0:21:44.560
all angry with yourself that you're falling. 
Absolutely. Absolutely. Berating myself. Um

0:21:45.600,0:21:50.320
and before I tell you this this next bit, remember 
we are highly trained for what we do. We know

0:21:50.320,0:21:55.360
exactly what we're doing and we're able to have 
thoughts outside the square while still doing

0:21:55.360,0:22:00.680
everything we need to do. So I'm falling. I'm 
berating myself. I have no idea what's happening.

0:22:01.440,0:22:06.280
Um, and I hear the sound of gunfire, the small 
round holes, and before I hit the ground,

0:22:06.280,0:22:11.800
the thought that runs through my head is small 
round hole, sound of gunfire, me falling stupidly,

0:22:11.800,0:22:17.160
I must be getting shot. Okay. Oh. And the 
thought that runs through my head then is, Derek,

0:22:17.160,0:22:21.560
don't be too hard on yourself because if you're 
getting shot, it's quite acceptable to fall over.

0:22:21.560,0:22:27.640
And that is literally what I thought. It's it's 
thinking outside the square while still doing

0:22:27.640,0:22:35.040
everything you need to do. So it's incredible the 
human body that you didn't even feel it in a way

0:22:35.040,0:22:38.920
when it was happening in that moment. You would 
all you felt was sensational falling. Yeah. And

0:22:38.920,0:22:45.760
it's the human body is a strange very strange uh 
we have had incidents at Star Group where people

0:22:45.760,0:22:52.600
have been high on drugs feeling no other pain 
whatsoever. walking through paddics with thorns uh

0:22:52.600,0:22:59.320
in bare feet and and they not feeling pain and 
they had two rifles and walking towards town

0:23:00.080,0:23:04.560
uh and they had to be shot. They were shot 
once in the hip, not feeling any other pain,

0:23:04.560,0:23:09.880
started screaming like a stuck pig because of 
the pain of this. They high on drugs, wasn't

0:23:09.880,0:23:15.560
feeling anything else for me. And lots of people 
have lots of different experiences. I've been to

0:23:15.560,0:23:21.000
many car accidents where you go, "Oh my gosh, 
that must hurt." But they're feeling no pain.

0:23:21.000,0:23:27.520
And other people with extremely minor injuries 
are screaming. And so that's besides, you know,

0:23:27.520,0:23:31.920
that is real for them. and and I don't take 
anything away from them for for that pain.

0:23:31.920,0:23:37.600
But the human body is But you you've just been 
shot and the only way you've made that association

0:23:37.600,0:23:42.960
is because you saw the bullet holes, you heard 
the gunfire, and you were falling. Y and then

0:23:42.960,0:23:49.960
you landed on the floor with a thump. Was that 
painful? I don't remember the pain of falling but

0:23:49.960,0:23:56.000
uh the next bit that I remember which will have 
your eyes amazed as well um is I'm lying on the

0:23:56.000,0:24:00.840
ground with my feet pointing in the direction 
of where he is and my head facing away and while

0:24:00.840,0:24:05.480
I'm lying on the ground he is still shooting. 
He fired 18 shooting you? Yeah, he fired 18.

0:24:06.280,0:24:13.720
No, he he was he was committed uh to finishing 
that job. Um and while I'm lying on the ground

0:24:13.720,0:24:19.040
uh I feel two bullets hit my left thigh. I do feel 
these two bullets is the only two bullets. How did

0:24:19.040,0:24:26.200
it feel? Um, it took about 30 seconds for those 
two bullets to hit me in my mind. In reality,

0:24:26.200,0:24:32.240
it's that space of time. Um, but time slowed down 
and I just analyzed everything and it felt like a

0:24:32.240,0:24:38.360
sledgehammer just driving into my thigh for the 
first bullet and then I felt a shock wave slowly

0:24:38.360,0:24:43.400
go up through my body and then slowly come back 
down through my body, back down to the point of

0:24:43.400,0:24:50.280
impact. And then I felt the second individual hit 
and it was shock wave up, shock wave down. True

0:24:50.280,0:24:55.720
shocking. Your body like everything everything 
has moved. My body is writhing on the ground.

0:24:55.720,0:25:01.560
I could feel that shock wave just passing through 
me. And the bullets going in and it's staying in.

0:25:01.560,0:25:08.760
Yep. Well, no, bullets didn't actually stay in. 
Um, why? I have no idea. But they've come down

0:25:09.360,0:25:14.400
at probably about a 30° angle because he's 
standing up and I'm on the ground. Probably

0:25:14.400,0:25:20.640
at about a 30° angle. They've entered my thigh 
and then turned around and come back out again.

0:25:20.640,0:25:26.800
Uh, how that works, I have no idea. I'd like to 
think I've got thighs of steel, but just ripped

0:25:26.800,0:25:30.960
through your completely ripped through and 
ripped back out again. Back out again. Yeah,

0:25:31.520,0:25:36.640
I lost I lost about 30% of the muscle in my 
thigh uh as a result of those two bullets.

0:25:37.360,0:25:43.160
Okay. Okay. So, so just let's just go back to the 
guy that's doing this. So, when he threatened,

0:25:44.640,0:25:49.960
I'm I'm going to shoot you coppers if you go on 
my property. He meant it. He really meant it. He

0:25:49.960,0:25:56.880
meant that threat. It's hard to say whether he 
meant it or he just wanted to be threatening. He

0:25:57.680,0:26:04.760
part of his history that we knew was that he 
had been involved. Every anybody confronted him,

0:26:04.760,0:26:10.320
he would threaten, he would intimidate, he 
would uh try to make them back away for fear

0:26:10.320,0:26:16.400
of uh getting injured or die themselves. 
So we know that's part of his personality.

0:26:17.560,0:26:24.080
Um so we have that in mind when we approach the 
house. But always knowing he has made that threat

0:26:24.080,0:26:31.200
so he cannot be disregarded. Well, the the the 
association was made to you guys and and bullets.

0:26:31.200,0:26:37.640
So, he did load his gun and he shot at you and 
the bullets went through your body and you felt

0:26:37.640,0:26:43.000
them. Boy, did you feel them. And you're lying 
down and your feet are pointing up. Correct.

0:26:43.840,0:26:51.680
What are you thinking? So the 30 seconds part of 
it I'm feeling this part of it I'm also thinking

0:26:51.680,0:26:56.400
to myself how can I possibly lie here again 
I'm berating myself how can I lie here for

0:26:56.400,0:27:01.680
30 seconds and just let this happen to me I'm 
highly trained I should be doing more of this

0:27:02.360,0:27:06.600
uh but as you say my feet are pointing up and I 
know that I need to fire back I've already got

0:27:06.600,0:27:12.800
my pistol in my hand okay I know that I need 
to fire back uh but as I line up to take that

0:27:12.800,0:27:19.560
first shot in return higher. Um, I realize my feet 
are sticking up at the other end of my body. And I

0:27:19.560,0:27:25.240
know that I need to lift myself up, but my upper 
body's got a flak vest. It's got weaponry. It's

0:27:25.240,0:27:30.400
got equipment. And the upper body is heavier than 
the feet anyway. And as I lift my upper body up,

0:27:30.400,0:27:35.920
my feet come up to counterbalance. And the thought 
that runs through my head is, "I'd better not

0:27:35.920,0:27:40.760
shoot myself in the foot." Yeah, cuz the guys at 
work will give me [ __ ] for the rest of my life.

0:27:40.760,0:27:46.280
And that is the thought that rans. Now, I I I 
reiterate, it doesn't stop me doing what I need to

0:27:46.280,0:27:51.200
do, but we're able to have these thoughts outside 
the square while still doing it because we're

0:27:51.200,0:27:58.520
so highly trained for what we know that we can 
anticipate in the job that we do. Um, so, uh, I

0:27:58.520,0:28:02.920
know that I don't want to shoot myself in the 
foot and I do fire back and I do miss my feet,

0:28:03.560,0:28:09.600
but it's only when I fire back that he stops. And 
that was my whole intention. I couldn't see him.

0:28:09.600,0:28:14.680
I could hear where the bullets were coming from. 
So I fired in that direction. Uh I hit a brick in

0:28:14.680,0:28:21.480
the wall next to his head uh and missed his 
head by just millimeters. Uh and a little a

0:28:21.480,0:28:26.760
little bit of shrapnel goes into his head. Uh and 
there's another bullet that skips across his back

0:28:26.760,0:28:31.920
and nobody knows what stage of the siege this 
bullet skips across his back. Okay. But he feels

0:28:31.920,0:28:35.400
threatened at this point because a bullet two 
bullets have gone in his direction and he's got

0:28:35.400,0:28:39.600
shrapnel in his head. So he's must have moved 
from there. He probably thought, "Right, well,

0:28:40.120,0:28:45.920
I'm leaving this." He He took protection. So, when 
I'm lying on the ground, I consciously fire back

0:28:45.920,0:28:51.200
and I consciously want to fire just six or seven 
times because I'm aware I can't see him. In the

0:28:51.200,0:28:58.920
video analysis afterwards, I fire 13 times. So, I 
just got a little bit excited at that point. Um,

0:28:58.920,0:29:04.720
but you know, some of those bullets went 
Yeah. He was getting getting what was coming

0:29:05.400,0:29:13.160
under. you were really in a bad state and and 
brave enough to to still fight. Brave enough,

0:29:13.160,0:29:18.720
well trained enough um extremely well and with the 
right mindset to be able to manage those things

0:29:18.720,0:29:24.480
and that's you know mostly part of our training 
as well. Okay. Yeah. So that's incredible. It

0:29:24.480,0:29:29.640
it's one of those strange things. Police officers 
generally whether they're in the special forces

0:29:29.640,0:29:35.280
area or just general duties uh the normal person 
when they hear gunfire they'll run away. police

0:29:35.280,0:29:40.040
officers will go, "What's going on? How can I get 
closer? How can I find um it's it's part of our

0:29:40.040,0:29:46.440
training. It's probably part of our personality 
as well." Okay. We want to do something to negate

0:29:46.440,0:29:52.760
the threat. So, the threat's been negated and he's 
now stopped, gone. You don't know where he's gone

0:29:52.760,0:29:58.560
cuz you're lying there. Correct. What's next? Um 
I roll to my right a couple of step a couple of

0:29:58.560,0:30:03.600
meters. Why? um just to get out of the line 
of fire rather than trying to get to my feet

0:30:03.600,0:30:08.600
which would be cumbersome at that stage um and 
take extra time. I needed to get out of the line

0:30:08.600,0:30:15.120
of fire and protected. I knew the layout of the 
house. If I rolled left, I would be still within

0:30:15.120,0:30:22.400
the family room um and further in past uh more of 
the glass sliding door. I knew that if I roll to

0:30:22.400,0:30:27.800
my right, uh, that there's a wall there and it 
goes into the laundry and he would not be able

0:30:27.800,0:30:32.560
to see me through that from where he was at 
that time. So, I rolled to my right because

0:30:32.560,0:30:36.400
that gave me the most protection. Were you I 
mean, how did that feel your roll to the right?

0:30:37.960,0:30:44.200
No feeling at all. You were able to do it? Yeah. 
Um, and you know, just on that point at this stage

0:30:44.200,0:30:51.400
there is no pain. Okay. No pain at all. Um doctors 
are not able to explain to me why there's no pain.

0:30:52.080,0:30:57.320
U and bit like I was explaining before about some 
people feel pain from minor injuries and others

0:30:57.320,0:31:05.080
don't. For me there was just this no feeling of 
pain. I knew that I had been shot. I could feel

0:31:05.080,0:31:12.680
discomfort more than pain. Did you see blood? 
Um yes. Uh absolutely. I I rolled to my right

0:31:12.680,0:31:17.080
and I managed to get to my feet. Now, I should 
probably give you an insight into the injuries

0:31:17.080,0:31:23.160
I was dealing with at that stage. Uh, I had a 
broken left forearm and a severed radial artery.

0:31:23.160,0:31:28.320
My forearm was broken in two places. A bullet 
went straight through it. Um, I've got some great

0:31:28.320,0:31:34.320
photos of that. Um, [laughter] okay. Okay. That's 
a policeman's dark sense of humor. I'm sorry.

0:31:34.880,0:31:40.440
Uh, I've got a piece of shrapnel in my right wrist 
and that severed the artery in my right wrist. Uh,

0:31:40.440,0:31:44.720
I've got two bullets in the stomach. And I can 
feel this discomfort like somebody's hit me in

0:31:44.720,0:31:50.640
the stomach. That that's as much pain as it was. 
Two bullets in the left thigh. Uh, three bullets

0:31:50.640,0:31:55.320
or bits of shrapnel skip across the back of my 
left calf. Uh, one bullet went through my right

0:31:55.320,0:32:01.000
Achilles tendon and took out 80% of the thickness 
of my Achilles tendon. Uh, another bullet went

0:32:01.000,0:32:05.640
in or bullet or bit of shrapnel went in behind my 
right knee. Uh, and there were three bullets that

0:32:05.640,0:32:11.600
hit me that didn't penetrate. One of them hit a 
ceramic plate on my chest. Uh the two bullets that

0:32:11.600,0:32:17.400
went into my stomach, they actually went through 
the flack vest. Right. Not a bullet. Bulletproof

0:32:17.400,0:32:23.960
after all. No. Um and it's this type of bullet 
that is able to go through uh the soft body armor.

0:32:23.960,0:32:28.480
Unbelievable. Unbelievable. But I've got a ceramic 
plate on my chest and a ceramic plate on my back.

0:32:28.480,0:32:32.360
These ceramic plates, people say, "Oh, why 
weren't you wearing them all over your body?"

0:32:32.360,0:32:37.560
The one on my chest weighed 7 kilos. So, 
putting them all over your body is just

0:32:37.560,0:32:42.480
completely impractical. Uh, but we've got them 
over the vital organs. A bullet hit that ceramic

0:32:42.480,0:32:47.880
plate and the ceramic plate stopped it. That was 
just underneath the heart and lung area. So, the

0:32:49.000,0:32:54.160
uh the greater trauma from that, the expansive 
trauma from the bullet entering would have

0:32:54.160,0:32:59.840
affected my lungs and heart. Uh, another bullet 
hit my left thigh but hit a piece of equipment

0:32:59.840,0:33:06.840
so it didn't penetrate in there. Um, and the 
the last bullet hit an area of the flack vest

0:33:06.840,0:33:11.640
called the groin flap. Um, and it hit the groin 
flap and stopped in the groin flap. So, well,

0:33:11.640,0:33:16.480
you know those exactly and precisely because you 
would. It's absolutely horrific. But at the time

0:33:16.480,0:33:20.160
when you were rolling over, you saw blood. You 
didn't know how many injuries you had? Absolutely

0:33:20.160,0:33:25.440
not. I Were you aware of any specific injury at 
this point? You definitely knew you did have.

0:33:25.440,0:33:29.640
Yeah, absolutely. I I knew I'd been hit 
in the stomach. I knew I could feel my

0:33:29.640,0:33:35.200
thigh, the blood. Uh, obviously I knew I'd been 
shot twice in the thigh. Uh, as I walked around,

0:33:35.200,0:33:43.040
as I got to my feet and staggered around the 
corner. Um, I put my hand on the dog kennel. Um,

0:33:43.040,0:33:48.560
and I saw that there was blood stain where my hand 
was. Okay. Uh, and my forearm had been broken in

0:33:48.560,0:33:54.520
two places. You and the bone was You couldn't miss 
it. Oh, one of those kind of obvious ones. Um,

0:33:55.960,0:34:02.400
what were you thinking at that point then? Um, at 
that point I was I was purely focused on finding

0:34:02.400,0:34:08.480
myself a safe place to get to and my aim was to 
go around the house and back to the cars because

0:34:08.480,0:34:17.000
that's where I knew that I would be able to get 
out or safety or or whatever else. Um, and uh, I'd

0:34:17.000,0:34:24.640
only gone about 7 or 8 m. Uh, I lent against the 
wall at one point. Um, there's a good interesting

0:34:24.640,0:34:28.920
story there, but it'll take too long to No, no, 
tell us the story. You lent against the wall. Oh,

0:34:28.920,0:34:34.040
okay. Uh, I lean against the wall. Um, because my 
legs started to feel weak, and I just need Yeah. I

0:34:34.040,0:34:39.960
mean, I don't know how you're walking 7 m with the 
knee and the getting shot. I mean, how are you?

0:34:40.920,0:34:44.160
And the Achilles tendon and the Achilles tendon 
is gone. Basically, it is. You don't have an

0:34:44.160,0:34:50.600
Achilles tendon. So, yeah, I've only got 20% and I 
still only have 20% of my Achilles tendon now. Um,

0:34:50.600,0:34:56.120
but I am walking and I'm not feeling the the 
extreme pain that you would assume that somebody

0:34:56.120,0:35:00.800
would have. But you're bleeding and you're weak. 
But I'm bleeding. I'm weak. There's shock setting

0:35:00.800,0:35:05.440
in. Uh, and I just lean against the wall trying 
to gather my thoughts. But I lean against the

0:35:05.440,0:35:12.480
wall with my left forearm. That's broken in two 
places. Now, as I lean against the wall, um,

0:35:13.040,0:35:19.920
my mind goes to the movie The Naked Gun. Yes. 
If you Yeah. Yeah, the Naked Gun. You have a

0:35:19.920,0:35:24.800
twisted sense of humor as well. I like that. Uh, 
in one of the scenes of The Naked Gun, one of them

0:35:24.800,0:35:29.200
breaks into a room on a boat and he's getting 
shot by half dozen offenders and he's getting

0:35:29.200,0:35:34.120
shot full of holes and he falls backwards, puts 
his hand out to balance himself, and he puts on a

0:35:34.120,0:35:38.600
hot combustion heater and burns his hand and 
he's more worried about his hand and then he

0:35:38.600,0:35:43.080
falls against paint and he's worried about his new 
jacket getting paint on it. That's the scene that

0:35:43.080,0:35:49.080
ran through my hand. My head as I lean against 
the wall because as I lean against the wall,

0:35:49.080,0:35:57.040
my forearm's broken in two places. And so my hand 
folds backwards along my forearm and I just look

0:35:57.040,0:36:03.480
at that. This scene runs through my mind and I 
think to myself, damn, this is not a good day.

0:36:04.680,0:36:10.960
Now, this is not a disregard of the seriousness, 
the impact. is just so well trained physically,

0:36:10.960,0:36:16.960
mentally and emotionally that I had a realistic 
expectation. This is a possibility that could

0:36:16.960,0:36:21.200
happen and if it does happen, there are four 
things that I need to do to be able to control

0:36:21.200,0:36:29.720
my mind, my body, my physiology. Um, and remaining 
calm was one of cuz cuz let me So anyone else

0:36:29.720,0:36:35.640
when you're putting your hand and it's going 
would be going [screaming] let's let's be really

0:36:35.640,0:36:42.240
clear freaking out beyond belief and fainting 
probably losing their mind. Yeah, absolutely.

0:36:43.240,0:36:48.480
The sight would Yeah, absolutely. The sight would 
make some people and you're thinking naked gun

0:36:48.480,0:36:54.080
I don't want to see. This is not a good day. 
I've just been shot and my hand is folding back

0:36:54.080,0:36:59.920
along my forearm. This is not working out well 
for me. Um, but I never disregard seriousness.

0:37:00.440,0:37:05.600
All right. And it's this point that I really 
need to set my mind for making sure that I'm

0:37:05.600,0:37:12.680
going to be okay. Um, and I've come up with a 
philosophy of sustained optimal performance. Um

0:37:13.480,0:37:21.080
the thing that kept me calm in that time is that 
in star group in any special forces we are trained

0:37:21.080,0:37:29.840
to operate at 100% 100% of the time right and if I 
had tried to sustain that peak performance at that

0:37:29.840,0:37:34.120
time I would have been pushing myself I would 
have been rushing I would have been uh trying

0:37:34.120,0:37:38.880
to do more than I was capable of my heart would 
have been racing my blood would have been pumping

0:37:39.680,0:37:45.760
um and because of two seed arteries I would 
been dead within minutes. Um, but I knew that

0:37:45.760,0:37:51.960
I needed to control panic, control shock, slow 
down my heart rate, slow down my breathing.

0:37:51.960,0:37:57.640
Um, and by doing that, I was able to 
logically think through what I needed to do

0:37:57.640,0:38:03.120
to sustain that optimal performance. Okay. So, 
you had the hand back and you were now going,

0:38:03.120,0:38:07.400
"Right, we need to focus here on keeping calm." 
So, you actually made that decision to be

0:38:08.320,0:38:13.200
absolutely rational and calm. So, what's 
what's next? So where I was at that stage,

0:38:13.760,0:38:18.240
uh I was still exposed to another glass 
sliding door underneath another verander.

0:38:18.240,0:38:22.000
So I've gone, this is not a good place to be. 
I started moving to the next corner of the

0:38:22.640,0:38:29.040
uh house to see what I could find around there 
um and potentially get around the the house. Uh I

0:38:29.040,0:38:34.080
only take about two or three steps away from 
the wall. My legs collapse. I fall to my knees.

0:38:34.640,0:38:40.160
I crawl along on my knees for about 2 or 3 m. 
uh getting weaker all the time. I fall to my

0:38:40.160,0:38:45.280
hands and knees, pistol in one hand, and I'm 
crawling along on my hands and knees. I get

0:38:45.280,0:38:51.840
around the corner um and I look up and there 
are gas bottles and a fence in front of me.

0:38:51.840,0:38:56.400
I don't have the energy to get up and climb 
over this fence. I collapse to the ground,

0:38:56.400,0:39:02.200
roll onto my back, and that's where I 
stay for about the next 3 hours. Okay.

0:39:03.200,0:39:07.600
So, you know, you can't travel anymore. You're 
certainly not walking and you're you're back.

0:39:07.600,0:39:13.680
You're now on your back. Correct. Okay. And and 
you're weak and you're vulnerable. And that's

0:39:13.680,0:39:21.280
exactly what's running through my mind. [snorts] 
So, going back to at the point that I was shot,

0:39:21.280,0:39:28.320
I've rolled to my right. I've got to my feet. Uh, 
and I've called out to my mates, I'm hit. I'm hit.

0:39:28.920,0:39:34.080
I go around the corner of the house and I call. 
And when I lean against the wall and I see my arm,

0:39:34.080,0:39:40.080
my hand folding back along my arm, I call 
to my mates, I'm hit, I'm hurt, I need help.

0:39:40.720,0:39:46.480
Now, I know that he's hearing this as well. Yeah, 
I can hear him inside the house. Uh, and his wife

0:39:46.480,0:39:53.400
is deacto is screaming at him. Tony, stop. 
Tony, don't. Uh, I can't hear him respond,

0:39:53.400,0:39:57.720
but I'm aware of what she said. She's asking him, 
begging him to stop. She's begging him to stop.

0:39:57.720,0:40:02.200
Absolutely. Uh, and they've got two young 
children. Are those kids in the house? Yes, two

0:40:02.200,0:40:06.920
kids are in the house. The kids are in the house. 
Yes. Absolutely. So, when I'm firing back at him,

0:40:06.920,0:40:12.720
this thought of my word, if I hit one of the 
children, and that thought goes even deeper,

0:40:12.720,0:40:18.160
one of the things that ran through my head as 
we approached was, if I shoot him and kill him,

0:40:18.160,0:40:23.760
how will I feel when I see those kids 18 years 
later and they say, "You killed my father."

0:40:23.760,0:40:29.160
these are the things that we need to contend 
with and we need to be able to deal with those

0:40:29.160,0:40:34.920
emotionally uh and not wait until it hits us to 
go what do I do now? So I was very fortunate to

0:40:34.920,0:40:42.600
think through those things. Um but I've called out 
I'm hit, I'm hurt, I need those are monumentous

0:40:42.600,0:40:48.080
thoughts, monumentous decisions. They literally 
are life and death and they they are Yeah,

0:40:48.080,0:40:53.120
absolutely. I I would like to 
think that most police officers

0:40:53.120,0:40:59.240
have these thoughts running through their mind. 
Um, unfortunately, I know that many don't.

0:40:59.240,0:41:03.400
Many are just going, I hope it never happens 
to me and I never have to deal with it. Uh,

0:41:03.400,0:41:08.800
and that's very unfortunate. And that when it does 
happen is the part that causes us the most mental

0:41:08.800,0:41:14.280
stress. I didn't see this coming. I don't I wasn't 
prepared for this. Uh, I didn't imagine it was

0:41:14.280,0:41:19.280
going to happen to me that well, this happens to 
somebody else. Uh, so the fact that I was able to

0:41:19.280,0:41:23.640
think this through beforehand and be prepared 
Yeah. allowed me to deal with it better.

0:41:24.560,0:41:29.440
Yeah. There there's there's [clears throat] 
something that I that I know about you

0:41:30.280,0:41:35.040
um that we didn't say up until this point, but it 
relates highly to what you've just said and it's

0:41:35.040,0:41:42.480
part of the preparation. So, can you leave that 
scene for a bit and go back to before the scene

0:41:43.440,0:41:48.680
where you had a conversation 
with your wife at the time? Yeah.

0:41:49.200,0:41:55.720
So, 5 years prior to the shooting, uh, is when I 
joined Star Group. And when I joined Star Group,

0:41:56.240,0:42:02.760
um, I don't know why. I'd never been taught. I'd 
never been coached through it or advised to do it.

0:42:02.760,0:42:07.480
But I sat down with my wife and I had what I call 
an open, honest, confronting conversation. and

0:42:07.480,0:42:13.200
confronting done with care, compassion, but really 
addressing the the reality of what we're looking

0:42:13.200,0:42:19.240
at. Um, and I said, I'm going into Star Group. 
There's a real chance I may be shot and injured. I

0:42:19.240,0:42:25.880
may be shot and killed. Um, and I wanted her to be 
on the same page as me. I wanted her to uh uh be

0:42:25.880,0:42:34.960
able to make um informed decisions about how this 
action might impact her as well as the family. Um,

0:42:35.600,0:42:40.720
and so that she would have more chance of being 
supportive rather than angry. And I know exactly

0:42:40.720,0:42:44.880
where she is. So I said, "Real chance I may be 
shot and injured. I may be shot and killed."

0:42:44.880,0:42:51.800
My first question to her uh was not about me. It 
was about her. If I die, what's your life going to

0:42:51.800,0:42:56.920
look like? Do you want to go on and get married? 
Do you want to stay single? Um, all those sorts of

0:42:56.920,0:43:01.800
things. Difficult topics to be raising. Um, they 
are difficult topics, things to think ahead like

0:43:01.800,0:43:09.680
that. The the thing that one of the reasons that 
caused me to do that was that I could imagine that

0:43:09.680,0:43:15.160
if I died and we hadn't had this conversation, 
the thoughts running through her head would be,

0:43:15.160,0:43:21.000
"What would Derek have wanted?" And if I don't 
know what Derek had wanted, what would his family

0:43:21.000,0:43:26.760
say if I went on married and somebody else is 
looking after the children? So by having this

0:43:27.360,0:43:33.760
conversation, it was completely unambiguous 
as to what I uh wanted for her in the future.

0:43:33.760,0:43:38.080
And it wasn't about me saying, "I want you to 
do this." It was about me saying, "Whatever you

0:43:38.080,0:43:43.440
choose to do, I support it." Right? I want you to 
just live your life. You're a very compassionate,

0:43:43.440,0:43:48.000
kind, and empathetic person. The way that you 
would even even approaching the scene, you

0:43:48.000,0:43:52.600
were thinking about how to keep others safe. It 
wasn't how am I going to keep myself safe. You're

0:43:52.600,0:43:56.640
thinking about the others and protecting in the 
group where you need to be in the group so that

0:43:56.640,0:44:02.080
everyone collectively as a whole. You put yourself 
into a dangerous situation so that you can protect

0:44:02.080,0:44:06.680
others so that you can find the best routs. You're 
thinking about your wife and allowing her to go

0:44:06.680,0:44:10.840
and be with someone else when you're clearly in 
love with this woman and and you know you you want

0:44:10.840,0:44:14.640
her to stop, but you're not being selfish. You're 
not thinking this is about me. You're always

0:44:14.640,0:44:20.160
thinking about other people. And I just find that 
is an incredible thing in your character. I'm just

0:44:20.160,0:44:24.480
going to put that out there. Thank you so much. 
Thank you very much. It's just amazing. Amazing.

0:44:25.200,0:44:29.520
So, you have had this conversation with her and 
she has permission to live her life without you.

0:44:29.520,0:44:33.400
Is that going through your mind at the time when 
you've now hit the floor and you're completely

0:44:33.400,0:44:39.280
out of it or at this point? Are you still in 
in I'm I I'm you know you cuz you don't know

0:44:39.280,0:44:43.800
if you're going to survive. No. No. That's right. 
Absolutely. Um I'm just going to go back to that

0:44:43.800,0:44:49.880
conversation for a moment. Uh because what I 
also said to her was I may be shot and killed

0:44:49.880,0:44:55.560
but I need you to know right now that if I 
don't die anything better than death is a bonus.

0:44:55.560,0:44:59.760
Even if I have a spinal injury and I spend 
the rest of my life in a wheelchair and

0:44:59.760,0:45:04.360
this was a conversation we had uh if I spend the 
rest of my life in a wheelchair so long as I am

0:45:04.360,0:45:10.840
able to interact with my children I will find a 
way to enjoy life. Now in my mind I had to have

0:45:10.840,0:45:16.680
that conversation with her right there and then 
so that it could be completely again unambiguous

0:45:16.680,0:45:22.320
that I will find a way if I say it after 
I get shot and after I'm in a wheelchair

0:45:22.320,0:45:27.000
it could sound like just platitudes or you know 
I'll try and make the best of it or whatever. No,

0:45:27.000,0:45:33.560
this is a a conscious decision and I know the 
risks before I'm going in. Okay. Wow. Okay.

0:45:33.560,0:45:37.640
Yeah. So you actually even foraw that you might 
be in this wheelchair. You might have to look at,

0:45:37.640,0:45:41.160
but you as long as you can see your kids, it's 
all good. I'm going to blow your mind because

0:45:41.160,0:45:47.240
it goes one step further. Okay, go on. I said, 
if I die, what are you going to tell my children

0:45:47.240,0:45:52.480
about the person I was who decided to go 
into this knowing that that was possible?

0:45:52.480,0:45:56.800
And so, we had a very clear discussion about 
what I would like her to say to my children.

0:45:57.680,0:46:04.840
Wow. Talk about preparation. You're you're 
preparing on emotionally, physically,

0:46:04.840,0:46:10.720
everything. I think that's just the reality. Okay. 
Uh that's the reality of the situation I was going

0:46:10.720,0:46:15.840
into. What I talk to people about is that we 
need to prepare for what we can realistically

0:46:15.840,0:46:22.120
expect to encounter in our life. Now, you wouldn't 
need to make those sorts of conversations happen

0:46:22.120,0:46:25.520
because you're not going to be facing weapons. 
You're not going to You know what? You know what,

0:46:25.520,0:46:28.320
Derek? As you're speaking, I'm thinking 
how much all of us aren't prepared. We're

0:46:28.320,0:46:31.920
not having those conversations. How many of 
us don't have wills? How many of us haven't

0:46:31.920,0:46:36.080
spoken about what could happen if you die? 
If I die, if this happens, if that happens,

0:46:36.080,0:46:40.240
what if I'm, you know, we we don't we don't talk 
about these things. We don't prepare for them

0:46:40.240,0:46:46.240
really. No, we don't really. Maybe a pension, 
maybe. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, I I

0:46:46.240,0:46:50.920
have a whiteboard exercise. Well, we can all we 
can all die. Sorry. We can all get hit by a bus.

0:46:50.920,0:46:56.120
Correct. Anything can happen. We're all in danger 
all the time. And there's not to mention cancer

0:46:56.120,0:47:01.800
and all those diseases that are out to get us. So, 
we're all vulnerable. and and I have a whiteboard

0:47:01.800,0:47:06.320
exercise where I say what are the challenges and 
changes you can see in the next 12 months to 5

0:47:06.320,0:47:11.840
years and people come up with and it's in your 
life in your work in your family in your sport

0:47:11.840,0:47:19.080
in community and people come up with uh cost of 
living losing a parent children uh going through

0:47:19.080,0:47:25.960
school new children into the family um all those 
sorts of things um and then I say how does that

0:47:25.960,0:47:30.520
make you feel how are you going to feel when you 
face these challenges and changes Uh and then I

0:47:30.520,0:47:35.480
jump to the fourth column and I say what are the 
resources for you to be able to deal with these um

0:47:35.480,0:47:41.360
and then at the end of workshop or presentation 
that I'm making I say what are the triggers

0:47:41.360,0:47:47.840
what are the behaviors and the thoughts that tell 
you you need to access those resources now um

0:47:48.400,0:47:56.400
and that's just looking at how I prepared myself 
um and realizing that that model can help others

0:47:56.400,0:47:59.880
to start thinking about let's work 
through the model you're on the for

0:48:00.760,0:48:05.080
that. That's it. You can't even walk anymore and 
you're on your back and you're bleeding. Yep.

0:48:06.360,0:48:12.520
How are you how how are you using this? How was I 
using that model? Uh so the first thing I had to

0:48:12.520,0:48:19.360
do was ensure my safety at the time. Um instantly 
I'm on my back. I'm feeling absolutely useless and

0:48:19.360,0:48:26.160
my mind instantly peaks to panic. Yeah. Um and 
that's when he starts shooting through bricks in

0:48:26.160,0:48:32.320
the wall and Oh, so he's still going for it. Uh, 
I was on the ground for 3 hours. He fired 2,000

0:48:32.320,0:48:36.040
rounds. Okay. In that three hours, even though 
the wife was shouting to him, going, "Tony,

0:48:36.040,0:48:41.920
stop." Um, yeah. She She was shouting. Uh, and 
the videographer kept the video running. He only

0:48:41.920,0:48:47.120
had a certain amount of battery life. It was back 
in 1994, so batteries weren't great. So, he would

0:48:47.120,0:48:52.200
take video, he'd stop video, but the video shows 
that she left the house with the two children

0:48:52.200,0:48:57.960
7 and 1/2 minutes after the shooting started. So, 
she's out of there. I have no idea about that. No.

0:48:57.960,0:49:02.320
But she is not my concern. I've She did the 
right thing. Yeah. Absolutely. But she was

0:49:02.320,0:49:06.800
never my concern. What I knew about her was 
she was no threat. She was never going to be

0:49:06.800,0:49:11.680
that kind of person. Um so I was worried about 
where he was. Uh he starts shooting through the

0:49:11.680,0:49:16.800
bricks in the wall directly above me. Dust 
is falling into my eyes from those bricks

0:49:16.800,0:49:23.520
and I have to cover my eyes to stop myself from 
being blinded. Um and I'm my instant panic was

0:49:23.520,0:49:28.160
I was lying under the kitchen window. I felt 
like he was standing in the kitchen and if he

0:49:28.160,0:49:33.360
looked out that kitchen window, he would see me 
on the ground. So, as much as I can't move a lot,

0:49:33.360,0:49:39.120
I've shimmyed closer to the wall and put 
myself on a 45° angle. Um, so that I would

0:49:39.120,0:49:45.840
lower that profile if it did look out. Um but 
eventually I look at the dust that's being um

0:49:47.480,0:49:52.720
distributed by these bullets being fired through 
it and I see that the dust is on a very flat

0:49:52.720,0:49:57.880
trajectory going straight out. So that means 
that he is at that level and firing straight

0:49:57.880,0:50:03.400
into the bullet and straight into the brick and 
straight out. Um and I also see that that's well

0:50:03.400,0:50:09.440
and truly above the kitchen window and he must be 
in the attic of this old farmhouse. Oh. And so at

0:50:09.440,0:50:16.520
that stage I go I can relax. Okay. And believe it 
or not I relaxed in that moment. I could actually

0:50:16.520,0:50:21.680
wind down and start thinking about my body. And 
that's when I said got to control panic. Got to

0:50:21.680,0:50:27.280
control shock. Slow down my mind. Absolutely. 
Going through this in my mind the whole time.

0:50:27.280,0:50:32.640
And part of that comes from the fact that I was 
a a highly trained recovery and tactical diver.

0:50:32.640,0:50:36.680
So why are you saying slow down your heart? 
Why are you saying I mean I I just want to

0:50:36.680,0:50:43.160
know what the the logic the rationale behind it. 
Um controlling panic and and controlling shock

0:50:43.160,0:50:48.880
were important so that controlling panic I could 
have clear thought about what I needed to do.

0:50:48.880,0:50:55.560
If I'm in panic um then that's fighting. Yep. 
No logical thinking at all. Control shock.

0:50:56.120,0:51:02.520
Uh part of the shock response is that the body 
sends blood to the major organs of the body. legs,

0:51:02.520,0:51:07.880
the arms for running, fighting, all that 
sort of thing. Um, but part of that process

0:51:07.880,0:51:13.760
is it drains blood out of the preffrontal cortex. 
And when we lose blood from the prefrontal cortex,

0:51:13.760,0:51:19.440
that's where we do our higher level thinking, our 
planning, our processing, our creativity. And so

0:51:19.440,0:51:25.240
by controlling shock, I can get that blood back 
up there and do that higher level thinking again.

0:51:25.240,0:51:31.280
Wow. You're actively pumping blood to your brain. 
that it it was just a process that I knew I needed

0:51:31.280,0:51:35.840
to go through. And as I say, I was a highly 
trained diver and we only have a certain amount

0:51:35.840,0:51:41.840
of air on our back when we go diving. And if we 
get stuck, one of the things that we are trained

0:51:41.840,0:51:47.280
is slow down your heart rate, slow down your 
breathing, stay uh calm because that'll make

0:51:47.280,0:51:53.600
that air last longer. How can you stay calm 
if you're stuck diving? Well, you have to. Oh,

0:51:54.680,0:52:00.240
and that's where you don't panic as well because 
you need to be able and most of the water most of

0:52:00.240,0:52:05.840
the water that we dive in is black water. Um, so 
a foot [snorts] below the surface, you can't see

0:52:05.840,0:52:11.160
your hand in front of your face. So everything has 
to be done by feel. And if you're in panic, you

0:52:11.160,0:52:17.000
can't logically work out what's around you, where 
your line is tangled, what's holding you down.

0:52:17.000,0:52:24.960
So that's a very big serious mind control 
stuff on a on a level that's elite elite.

0:52:26.080,0:52:31.880
Thank you. Thank you. I I like to call it mindset 
and mind management because we need really need

0:52:31.880,0:52:38.280
to manage our mind. I've had mindset people 
here before but this is uh this is [laughter]

0:52:38.880,0:52:45.880
Thank you. World class. Okay. Okay. Um so [sighs] 
I'm lying on the ground. I'm controlling my body.

0:52:45.880,0:52:52.120
I'm getting that blood back into uh my brain. 
And one of the thoughts that runs through my mind

0:52:52.120,0:52:58.920
is that he's now shooting just continuously. Uh 
I'm vulnerable. I'm on the ground. I can't do

0:52:58.920,0:53:03.720
anything. I've called out to my mates and I'm 
hit. I've called out to my mates and I'm hurt

0:53:03.720,0:53:09.960
and I need help. And I know that he's heard this 
as well. So with the blood flowing back into the

0:53:09.960,0:53:15.320
prefrontal cortex, I've been able to start getting 
creative in that moment. And I thought to myself,

0:53:16.320,0:53:26.240
I'm and I did call out, I'm hit. I'm hurt, but I 
can still shoot. I don't know whether he heard me,

0:53:26.240,0:53:32.520
but it made me feel better. And I yelled out as 
loud as I could so that I would intimidate him,

0:53:32.520,0:53:38.040
so he would knew know that he was a threat if 
he came out to hunt me, which was one of my big

0:53:38.040,0:53:42.840
concerns. I was vulnerable. He was hunting 
all of you. Uh he was hunt he was certainly

0:53:42.840,0:53:49.760
hunting all of us. He was out to get all of you. 
Fortunately for me, he's a coward. Um and he did

0:53:49.760,0:53:54.760
not expose himself to threat. Um so he went up 
into the roof of the house and stayed there.

0:53:56.040,0:54:03.480
Yeah. So that was fortunate for me. The the part 
where I started my emotions rising and started

0:54:03.480,0:54:08.640
worrying and going back to panic is when he 
stopped shooting. Because when he stopped

0:54:08.640,0:54:15.080
shooting, I didn't know where he was. And there 
were moments, okay, of several minutes where he

0:54:15.080,0:54:20.080
wasn't shooting and I was like, "Oh, he must be 
coming out and hunting." Where is he? Uh, in the

0:54:20.080,0:54:25.760
analysis afterwards, I now realize uh he stayed 
up in the roof and what he was doing during that

0:54:25.760,0:54:31.960
time of silence was reloading magazines with more. 
What does this guy have a stash of bullets in on

0:54:31.960,0:54:37.440
all the roofs? I mean, what he fired 2,000 rounds. 
Where does he get all these bullets from? Um, he

0:54:37.440,0:54:43.960
had 3,000 rounds in the house. Absolutely. He 
used to be a firearms dealer. Um, and so he had

0:54:44.680,0:54:51.760
a lot of very nice firearms. Uh, we took the 
firearms off of him when we first saw him uh in a

0:54:53.520,0:55:00.120
uh a court system bungle. He got the firearms 
back. Uh we then went out and grabbed them

0:55:00.120,0:55:04.080
again. We only got half of them back because 
he'd hidden the other ones and wouldn't tell

0:55:04.080,0:55:08.000
us where they were. So, we always knew that 
he was potentially going to have those.

0:55:08.800,0:55:15.360
Uh but he also had acquired another 5,000 rounds 
uh and he still had 3,000 rounds in the house

0:55:15.360,0:55:21.200
uh at the time of his arrest. Okay. So so there 
there's some some waves of you know you're working

0:55:21.200,0:55:27.120
you're working to control the So when he's not 
firing I'm starting to peak. As soon as he starts

0:55:27.120,0:55:34.160
firing again [sighs] I can relax again and that's 
when I start thinking about my body. Um, and

0:55:35.040,0:55:38.640
yeah, going back to that conversation with 
my wife, I may spend the rest of my life in

0:55:38.640,0:55:45.440
a wheelchair. Um, the one thing that kept me 
going was wanting to get back to my children,

0:55:45.960,0:55:50.480
wanting to get back and interact with them 
and and I consciously accepted I may spend

0:55:50.480,0:55:53.200
the rest of my life in a wheelchair because 
of the injuries I had. That's what you're

0:55:53.200,0:55:58.000
thinking at this point. Yeah, absolutely. 
Um, and it was a conscious acceptance.

0:55:58.000,0:56:02.280
the time that I've been out there, the injuries 
I've got, the amount of blood that I've lost.

0:56:02.280,0:56:07.320
There's probably going to be muscle that's 
starting to waste and die from oxygen deprivation.

0:56:08.080,0:56:13.560
Um, and I may spend the rest of my life in a 
wheelchair. But I absolutely focused on getting

0:56:13.560,0:56:18.640
back to my children. But I also started thinking 
while I'm on the ground, while he's shooting,

0:56:18.640,0:56:23.120
I may spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair. 
How am I going to make that interesting? it's not

0:56:23.120,0:56:28.200
going to be anything like Star Group, jumping out 
of helicopters, going ab selling, doing all these

0:56:28.200,0:56:34.560
exciting things. Um, and I started thinking, I 
play basketball. I could put basketball together

0:56:34.560,0:56:38.720
with wheelchair and play wheelchair basketball. 
And I thought, at least that'll be an outcome. And

0:56:38.720,0:56:46.080
this is while I'm on the ground bleeding out. The 
blood is pooling on the ground next to me. Um and

0:56:46.920,0:56:54.480
uh as as I tell people um my ego started to kick 
in at that point and I've gone play basketball.

0:56:54.480,0:57:00.000
I actually I'm damn good at basketball. I'd 
made the the national police team and we toured

0:57:00.560,0:57:06.520
um you know different places in Australia playing 
basketball. Um and so I've gone actually I'm damn

0:57:06.520,0:57:10.600
good at basketball. If I'm damn good and I put 
it together with wheelchair I may be able to

0:57:10.600,0:57:16.040
make the parolympic team. and the Parolympic 
team, they travel the world playing basketball

0:57:16.040,0:57:20.120
and in my life at the moment, I'm not traveling 
the world. So, this actually might not be a bad

0:57:20.120,0:57:25.160
thing. You're thinking positively. I'm thinking 
very positively. Um, when you're bleeding and

0:57:25.160,0:57:31.240
you've been shot and my body is closing down and I 
can feel my legs getting cold. Um, but my ego took

0:57:31.240,0:57:37.440
me to another level as well and and I say it's 
the special I say it's the special forces ego. Um,

0:57:37.440,0:57:43.880
so ego is good. I like it. I like it a lot in a 
time like that. really encourage people to embrace

0:57:43.880,0:57:50.360
their ego. Uh we've got to have that confidence in 
ourselves that we can build a life for ourselves.

0:57:50.360,0:57:55.200
It doesn't have to be an arrogant ego, 
but it has to be a self-confident ego.

0:57:55.200,0:58:00.360
And so this huge self-confident ego started 
thinking if I'm damn good at basketball and I

0:58:00.360,0:58:05.360
can add that to what they're already doing well 
in the Parolympic team, we may be able to make

0:58:05.360,0:58:11.000
the Parolympic finals and I may end up with a gold 
medal as a result of getting shot. [laughter] Now

0:58:11.000,0:58:17.320
I That's great. I love you know I I have reflected 
on this and most of my reflection has come by

0:58:17.320,0:58:23.040
people asking me questions and and I have to go 
in deeper into my mind and go what was I thinking?

0:58:23.040,0:58:28.560
How did I get there? Because it's you know when I 
first thought it sounds strange to me as well. Um

0:58:29.080,0:58:32.840
but I realized that that was building 
a sense of optimism for the future.

0:58:32.840,0:58:38.000
If I had just gone into pessimism, I've been shot. 
My life's going to be terrible. I wouldn't have

0:58:38.000,0:58:42.840
had the strength to keep on fighting. Not the 
physical strength, the mental strength because

0:58:42.840,0:58:47.560
there's nothing to look forward to. So why bother 
fighting? This sense of optimism. I'll get back to

0:58:47.560,0:58:53.600
my kids. I'll be able to interact with them. And I 
may maybe get a gold medal gave me that something

0:58:53.600,0:58:58.520
better to look for. My life was never going to 
in my mind at that time. I was never going to

0:58:58.520,0:59:03.720
go back to what I had at the moment. But there was 
still something better than where I am right now.

0:59:04.240,0:59:08.720
And that's where we need to get that sense of 
optimism. We may not be able to get perfection,

0:59:08.720,0:59:13.280
but what can be better than where we are now? And 
then keep building from there. Okay. And then do

0:59:13.280,0:59:18.440
you get some help after [laughter] you eventually 
do they they scraping you off? Did the ambulance

0:59:18.440,0:59:25.400
come? Yeah. So, I'm lying on the ground for 
2 and 3/4 hours. And at 2 and 3/4 hours, I've

0:59:25.400,0:59:30.440
not I've been consciously monitoring my body. My 
legs have closed down, my arms have closed down,

0:59:30.440,0:59:36.400
the pistol has fallen out of my hand cuz I don't 
have the strength to hold on to it. Um, and so

0:59:36.400,0:59:43.320
I know that blood is coming to short supply. 
Um, and at 2 hours 45, my vision closes down.

0:59:43.920,0:59:49.360
Now, instead of my vision going shades of gray 
or black as pragmatic copper expected it to,

0:59:49.360,0:59:54.800
my vision went to an absolutely pristine 
white. Not a white tunnel or just this absolute

0:59:54.800,1:00:00.440
white out, an absolutely pristine white. And at 
that point, I started thinking, is this what they

1:00:00.440,1:00:06.520
talk about in religion? Is this the white light 
of Absolutely. Um I'm not a religious person.

1:00:06.520,1:00:13.120
Um but could could have been. It runs through my 
mind. Is this what they talk about? Be in heaven.

1:00:13.120,1:00:18.840
You've seen heaven. Absolutely. Um but that's You 
were going at this point. Absolutely. And that's

1:00:18.840,1:00:23.480
what's running through my mind. You were going. 
Yeah. And you know, from the moment I got shot,

1:00:23.480,1:00:31.320
I was absolutely omni aware that uh this is 
life and death. I I could die within moments or

1:00:31.320,1:00:38.360
sustain optimal performance and last as long as I 
can. Uh but this was crux. I am now either going

1:00:38.360,1:00:43.800
to die or because my vision's closing down, 
there's not enough oxygen going to my brain

1:00:43.800,1:00:48.280
and I could have oxygen deprivation in the brain 
and my brain's going to start deteriorating.

1:00:48.280,1:00:55.040
Uh many of my mates say it did, but I don't think 
so. Okay. But um but this is the point where I

1:00:55.040,1:00:59.920
start fighting my hardest. I start moving my body 
the little bit that I still could and I start

1:00:59.920,1:01:05.960
speaking out loud to myself and saying, "Derek, 
don't give up. Derek, keep on fighting." Um,

1:01:05.960,1:01:12.360
and at that point, within 30 seconds to 2 minutes, 
two rifle shots are fired from outside the house

1:01:12.360,1:01:18.600
back towards the house. Dump of adrenaline into my 
body. This is my mates on their way back. I know

1:01:18.600,1:01:23.640
they're coming to get me. And my vision comes back 
up, but I'm passing in and out of consciousness.

1:01:24.320,1:01:30.560
boys came in under a hail of gunfire because 
the shooter heard the truck running coming up

1:01:30.560,1:01:37.120
crazy and he starts shooting even faster. Um, 
but the boys are with me. They pick me up.

1:01:37.120,1:01:43.840
Uh, there's a a moment of humor in the moment they 
pick me up. Uh, and they get me out to the doctor.

1:01:44.440,1:01:50.000
Um, and he yeah treats me and gets me to 
hospital and and literally saves my life.

1:01:50.000,1:01:56.200
But I've just got to mention that the doctor and 
the medical team stood in direct line of fire

1:01:56.200,1:02:01.160
for 10 minutes treating me to save you. And 
if they didn't do that, the doctor said I was

1:02:01.160,1:02:08.080
30 seconds from death and I would have died. So 
they they risked their lives for 10 minutes to st

1:02:08.080,1:02:14.920
to stabilize me. Uh absolute dedication. That is 
dedication. It's it's being a human at its finest.

1:02:14.920,1:02:20.120
at its absolute finest in the worst of humanity 
and the best of humanity. Yeah, absolutely.

1:02:20.120,1:02:25.640
In one session. That's Wow. They really came 
at the right time for you cuz you were going

1:02:26.320,1:02:32.560
I I do like to quip that Star Group. I like to 
quip that Star Group is well known for its timing,

1:02:33.120,1:02:37.480
but that was a little bit too close for me. 
So close. A little bit too fine, but you know,

1:02:37.480,1:02:43.360
better late than never. So, on time, just in 
time. And then, so you got to the hospital. And

1:02:43.360,1:02:48.400
how was that in the hospital? How how were you? 
Um, so I apparently I was still talking as I was

1:02:48.400,1:02:53.280
going into the hospital. I don't remember it at 
all. I was passing in and out of consciousness.

1:02:53.280,1:03:02.480
Uh, the first thing I know is I wake up uh in 
uh high intensity in um critical care ward um

1:03:02.480,1:03:07.760
and machines going beep and and all that sort 
of stuff. But I wake up and believe it or not,

1:03:07.760,1:03:13.080
I'm happy. I'm just relaxed. [clears throat] I'm 
here and that's it. Anything better than death is

1:03:13.080,1:03:18.040
a bonus. That and I think the anything better than 
death is a bonus is part of the reason I was able

1:03:18.040,1:03:23.000
to be relaxed uh at the time that I was on the 
ground and able to have these thoughts outside

1:03:23.000,1:03:28.320
the square about uh basketball and anything 
else like that. I'd already prepared myself.

1:03:28.320,1:03:33.400
I say that I did my therapy for the shooting 
5 years beforehand. Wow. When I had that

1:03:33.400,1:03:38.760
conversation with my wife, I totally prepared 
myself for the risks that I knew I was taking.

1:03:39.440,1:03:43.640
And and that's again I've got a model that 
that helps people go through that process.

1:03:44.360,1:03:47.880
Um but I prepared myself so that when 
I came out of it I was just happy.

1:03:48.480,1:03:55.920
Um and and looking forward to what's next knowing 
that you know it was going to be a huge challenge.

1:03:55.920,1:04:02.160
Um there was no doubt I was in pain at that stage 
as well. Huge amounts of pain. I was on morphine

1:04:02.160,1:04:06.800
and I couldn't press that morphine drip often 
enough but obviously it's regulated to once

1:04:06.800,1:04:11.520
every 5 minutes. But I was pressing it every 
still had to experience pain. [laughter] Um

1:04:12.560,1:04:20.800
and uh Okay. Yeah. Wow. So you're battered, 
you're bulleted, you're lying there,

1:04:20.800,1:04:24.880
you're happy to be alive. They're working on 
you. They're trying to sew you up, fix you up,

1:04:24.880,1:04:28.760
stitch you up as best as possible. You're 
getting some support from your friends,

1:04:28.760,1:04:34.880
from from those that were there. Yeah, absolutely. 
Um in and out of surgery, back in several times to

1:04:34.880,1:04:40.200
try and fix up what they weren't able to address. 
the first my first initial surgery of 6 hours.

1:04:40.200,1:04:46.040
I used 24 units of blood. So blood donors 
are absolute heroes in this scenario as well.

1:04:46.040,1:04:50.800
Um I'm getting medical attention. I'm 
getting attention from my family. Um

1:04:52.280,1:04:59.080
apparently in the corridor outside my uh critical 
care ward because they couldn't bring it into that

1:04:59.080,1:05:04.280
uh area, there were flowers, there were 
cards just choking the the hallways.

1:05:04.960,1:05:10.960
Uh so I feel very very privileged to have have 
had that. Um the nurses couldn't do more for me.

1:05:11.600,1:05:18.920
Uh I was treated extremely well in the critical 
care uh hospital that I was in. But once I got

1:05:18.920,1:05:23.960
to the point of being stable and that was after 
about 5 days, uh the nurses said to me, "You need

1:05:23.960,1:05:28.480
to go to a better hospital, a more comfortable 
hospital. This is pretty much a basic hospital.

1:05:29.040,1:05:34.320
Uh and I could go to a private hospital. Um and 
I did. Yeah. have further treatment and and do my

1:05:34.320,1:05:40.240
rehabilitation. Okay. And what about the baddie? 
He stayed in the house. I was on the ground for

1:05:40.240,1:05:47.200
3 hours. He stayed in the house for another 38 
hours. It's the longest siege ever in Australia.

1:05:47.880,1:05:56.560
Um and wow, he really locked himself in there 
in that. Absolutely. Um and police had the

1:05:57.120,1:06:01.440
uh operational sense at that time 
through learning that we had done

1:06:01.440,1:06:08.320
that he was the only one in the house. So there 
was no reason to risk any more people going in to

1:06:08.320,1:06:18.040
uh to try and coax him out or try and arrest 
him. Uh they did try they uh used some tactics

1:06:18.040,1:06:25.400
which made him surrender uh after the the 41 hours 
all up but nobody actually entered the house to

1:06:25.400,1:06:30.920
risk their lives. Is he in prison now? He must 
is he? Uh this happened in 1994 which is about

1:06:30.920,1:06:39.480
31 years ago. He got 22 years jail. Uh so he's 
served his time and today he walks amongst us.

1:06:42.160,1:06:48.160
That's our court system. He he has never 
accepted responsibility for the shooting.

1:06:48.160,1:06:53.240
He's never apologized for the shooting. He's 
never uh said it was the wrong thing to do.

1:06:53.960,1:07:01.040
He has he walks amongst us. He walks 
amongst us today. So if you go to Adelaide,

1:07:01.040,1:07:06.080
maybe he's still in Adelaide near there near the 
that region. Absolutely. You could encounter him.

1:07:06.080,1:07:12.120
I I know exactly where he is, which is a bit of 
an irony as well. Uh because as a victim of crime,

1:07:12.120,1:07:17.880
I'm not allowed to know where the offender 
is. But uh cutting to the end of the story,

1:07:17.880,1:07:23.080
I went back to policing fully operational, went 
back to Star Group. Great. But because I was still

1:07:23.080,1:07:29.440
a policeman up until 2018, um I had to know where 
he was because of operational safety. Every copper

1:07:29.440,1:07:34.120
was told where he was. So, uh, the irony is, as 
a victim, I'm not allowed to know where he is,

1:07:34.120,1:07:40.360
but I knew exactly where he is. And and I still 
know where he is now. And you still know. And

1:07:40.360,1:07:45.680
you know, uh, the question that gets asked most 
here is, "How do you feel about that?" Yeah. Uh,

1:07:45.680,1:07:54.120
85% of my personality, my mind is very relaxed. 
He's a coward. He will not be proactive in taking

1:07:54.120,1:08:00.640
offensive action against anybody. Um, and 
so I feel quite comfortable. Uh he also

1:08:02.280,1:08:08.800
I have the the privilege of having third party 
removal from it. He didn't shoot Derek McManus.

1:08:08.800,1:08:13.640
He shot the cop that was walking down the side 
of the road uh side of his house. Uh once it

1:08:13.640,1:08:19.400
got to court, it became very much about Derek 
McManus. Uh but he didn't shoot Derek McManus. So

1:08:19.400,1:08:24.320
there's that little bit. So 85% of my mind is 
very comfortable. He's probably never going to

1:08:24.320,1:08:31.200
be a threat to me. 15% of my mind says don't 
be complacent. Never give up on that vigilance

1:08:31.200,1:08:38.160
that you cannot predict what a coward's doing. A 
brave person have predictable actions. A coward

1:08:38.160,1:08:44.760
is not predictable. Absolutely erratic. They act 
in the moment. They take opportunities that you

1:08:44.760,1:08:49.880
just don't expect. They say a scared animal is a 
very dangerous animal, a cornered animal. Yep. And

1:08:50.680,1:08:56.127
and that's that's exactly what he was. He was a 
cornered rat. Um and he responded that way. And

1:08:56.127,1:09:02.880
he survived. The people that I'm more concerned 
for in his walking around Adelaide is my children

1:09:03.440,1:09:07.840
because I know that if he runs into my children 
and we don't hide on social media or anything,

1:09:07.840,1:09:13.280
but if he meets my children, I feel that he would 
want to get right up into their faces and say, "I

1:09:13.280,1:09:17.960
want to tell you my side of the story." And so I 
have sat down and discussed this with my children.

1:09:17.960,1:09:22.560
If this happens, this is how you might feel. This 
is how you might be able to respond. These are the

1:09:22.560,1:09:28.920
things that you can do. Um, I'm sure they're well 
trained in in mindset and controlling our own mind

1:09:28.920,1:09:35.200
animal. My my mind sometimes goes out of control 
and you know and my kids start lecturing me. Dad,

1:09:35.200,1:09:39.560
this is what you teach. This is what you need. 
Absolutely. That pull me back into line every

1:09:39.560,1:09:43.680
time. Well, it's only natural. It's only human. 
And and I know you you know you I'm sure in your

1:09:43.680,1:09:51.320
life you've had since then moments where you've 
had to use that that process since you know. I I

1:09:51.320,1:10:00.040
like to think that I use it every day for everyday 
scenarios. That process applies. I talk to kids in

1:10:00.040,1:10:05.680
schools about the challenges of being bullied and 
getting through your maths work and and all that

1:10:05.680,1:10:12.880
sort of stuff. And the process applies as much to 
their challenges as it does to the SAS that I I've

1:10:12.880,1:10:18.960
got to talk to the SAS in in February. I talked 
to CEOs about their challenges. The process is

1:10:18.960,1:10:24.200
universal and it's about going beyond resilience 
and it's about sustaining optimal performance.

1:10:25.120,1:10:32.800
Derek, it's been incredible, mindblowing in 
every way and I want to thank you for your time.

1:10:32.800,1:10:37.720
Alexandra, it's been an absolute pleasure. 
This has been one of the most pleasurable

1:10:38.560,1:10:43.480
indepth interviews and I really appreciate 
the way your mind works as well. Thank you.