Why Most Parenting Advice Fails High-Achieving Families

Cold open

The first 1m 32s is a trailer montage: short clips lifted from later in the episode, plus a narrated introduction of the guest. The lines below recur in context further down.

00:00:00 Aleksandra King: The most popular question about parenting is, am I a good parent?

00:00:04 Emily Hughes: I've worked with over a thousand parents.

00:00:06 Aleksandra King: I don't like the misinformation.

00:00:08 Emily Hughes: If you are worried that you are not good enough, it means that you care. Connection is at the key of all of this.

00:00:15 Aleksandra King: What's the hardest truth about parenting that no one wants to hear?

00:00:19 Emily Hughes: I think one of the hardest truths about parenting is–

*[Narration]* Emily Hughes is an expert parenting coach who helps high-functioning parents stay calm under pressure, set boundaries without shouting, and lead their families with steady, confident authority.

00:00:35 Emily Hughes: There's some really amazing evidence on the outcomes for kids who were emotion coached. They are more successful in every metric of life success.

00:00:44 Aleksandra King: Really?

00:00:44 Emily Hughes: Often in parenting, we are getting stuck in short-term gain for long-term pain. One of the first questions I ask when I meet parents is, what is your long-term vision? Young children are primed for survival. As parents, we need to be modelling the behaviour we wish to see in our children. There's no mastery in parenting. I see parenting as the ultimate portal for personal growth. Boundaryless parenting– it serves nobody. Growth involves suffering.

00:01:14 Aleksandra King: Teenagers need to be more controlled.

00:01:16 Emily Hughes: The thing that I really think teenagers need is media literacy.

00:01:20 Aleksandra King: If you gave them that phone, they'd be gone– they'd never see you, never see them again.

00:01:23 Emily Hughes: Yeah, we live in a non-optimal society. You should be the primary source of influence for your child.

Episode

00:01:32 Aleksandra King: Okay, we're doing something a little bit different today. We're going into the parenting zone– how to be a good parent. And lots of people watching are parents, some very young, and some grandparents, even. And we don't always get it right, and there's a lot of confusing information out there about parenting. And then parenting also affects our professional lives– it's all intertwined, so it's highly relevant. And what I always love to do is bring in the experts. I don't like the fake information, the misinformation. I want the true experts in, and that's why you're here, Emily. So for those that don't know you, tell our viewers who you are, and why you are truly a parenting expert.

00:02:16 Emily Hughes: So yeah, I'm a conscious parenting coach, and I've worked with over a thousand parents, across my coaching and through my courses, to really help parents to get to what matters most. And I spent ten years as a secondary school teacher before embarking on this. And what interested me most about that was how you get to raise great kids– throughout my experiences as a teacher, and then training as a coach, and also training in somatic work, so of the body– because we all know parenting is both a mind and body experience.

00:02:55 Aleksandra King: Okay, that's a crazy way to think about it, but it is a mind and body experience. Anyone who's a parent will know exactly what we're talking about. Okay, so you are certified, you're trained, you've spoken to thousands of parents, and you've worked with kids in a teaching setting. So you know a thing or two about the little terrors– the cuties, the little cutie pies. So, in preparation for this podcast, I asked ChatGPT what the most popular question was that parents were asking on Google. So what is the most frequently typed question that parents asked? Do you know what it was? Am I a good parent?

00:03:45 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And I think this speaks to doubt, which is such a common feeling in parenting. And I think it's really interesting, in my coaching work, that the limiting belief that comes up so much in parenting is, I'm not good enough. And often that's lurking in the shadows underneath our parenting. And really, what I think parents need to understand is that parenting is not school. This is not something that you pass or fail at, that there's an exam at. This is a long journey, and there is always time to reconnect, to change the dynamic. It's never too late. And when we're in that mindset, which is more of a growth mindset– because this kind of idea that we might be failing, it's a very fixed-mindset way of looking at parenting– but really being abundant, that we have enough time. And one of the things that I'm always leaning my clients towards is leaning into that capability. So it's not about good or bad, it's about being capable. And when you feel capable, so much begins to be possible. So yeah– focusing less on the moral judgement, and leaning into your capability, and also your commitment to your child. Because if you are worried that you are not good enough, it means that you care. And caring– aligning that with kind of your integrity– that's what will actually help you to thrive as a parent.

00:05:21 Aleksandra King: If we do step into that sort of– the doubt field, and just massage that for a second, because it's a very real thing for parents. I've heard a lot of parents say that, if my kids are still speaking to me, want to hang out with me, when they're older and they don't need to, then that's successful parenting. What do you say to that?

00:05:42 Emily Hughes: Yeah, that's definitely something that people say. And yeah, I agree. It really is about the metrics that you are judging your parenting against. And I always say that connection is at the key of all of this. And if you are building connected relationships with your children, and those connected relationships last, then I would define that as being–

00:06:08 Aleksandra King: What do you mean by connected? Do you mean we communicate, and we understand each other? What is the connection?

00:06:14 Emily Hughes: Yeah, I think it's communication, it's understanding, and it's something more soulful, I think. So one of my clients said to me– which I really, really loved– she said she'd been focusing a lot on her child's academic success, but she had been neglecting the more kind of soulful attunement. And what I mean by attunement– how I describe that is, it's a bit like two people playing piano together. And if you are attuned to your child, your child is playing their piece, and you are doing a harmonious duet with them. But if you are misattuned to your child, your child is playing their tune, and you're coming in– and that is the kind of misattunement. And every child is different, and playing a different tune. And part of our journey as parents, I believe, is to attune to that tune, and to gently guide that into maturity and adulthood.

00:07:13 Aleksandra King: You actually see it quite a lot in the academic schools– the grammar schools, and the ones where they put a lot of pressure on– that these kids are drowning in academics. You have that– okay, there's extremes, where they're probably not doing enough work in some schools, and then the other ones, they're pushing you a lot. But then, yes, there's this neglect on the emotional upbringing, which is such an important part. What happened at school today? How is that friend of yours, or how's that person that's not been that nice? What's the latest juice on that, or whatever– just sort of tapping into their day, emotionally, how they've navigated it.

00:07:52 Emily Hughes: Yeah. So what you're speaking on there is kind of emotion coaching. And there's some really amazing evidence on the outcomes for kids who were emotion coached– who had parents who were interested in the child's emotional world. And those children who are emotion coached, they are more successful in every metric of life success. So they're more successful academically, socially, even health. And really, this is at the core of everything– it's like, how are we raising emotionally intelligent kids? But in order to do that, we sometimes need to raise our own emotional intelligence. That's certainly my journey in parenting. I thought I was emotionally intelligent, and I swiftly realised, in my first few years of parenting, that I was not emotionally intelligent. And that's been like a big quest for me.

00:08:48 Aleksandra King: They're going to test you. Toddlers are the strictest– think about– clients– talk about a toddler's demanding– they have no patience with you. And any nonsense, that baggage you might be carrying– a toddler is a special species. So I would say– what's the hardest truth about parenting that no one wants to hear?

00:09:13 Emily Hughes: I think one of the hardest truths about parenting is really around control. Because so often in our lives, from when we became an adult to when we had kids, we are largely in control of our lives. Then children come along, and the truth is that you cannot fully control a child. Because you can't make a child sleep, you can't make a child eat, and you can't make a child defecate, right? And it can be a massive challenge to our need for control. And really, one of the greatest things that we can accept is that humans are really hardwired to not be easily controlled. And when we accept that– that control is not the goal, but guiding, and finding ways to attune and gain cooperation– it's possible to do this. But when we are stuck in feeling like, I need to control everything, because I'm not safe unless I'm controlling everything– that's where people get stuck.

00:10:23 Aleksandra King: You're making me think of the Supernanny episode. I don't know if the viewers are going to recognise or remember Supernanny, but when she goes around– and she's trying to– well, the toddler's actually trying to control the household, normally, and the toddler's making the rules about when it goes to bed. Normally it's these really, like, strong, empowered toddlers that really want to rule the show. That's what makes good TV, right? You've got the toddler who's trying to control the household, and then you've got this desperate parent who can't control the toddler, and then Supernanny comes in, and she then controls the parent and the toddler, and she does this whole naughty step thing. And in a way, I feel like the toddler's temporarily controlled, and then she goes, and then– yeah.

00:11:03 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And one of the things I think about the Supernanny approach is, I don't think it's very wise.

00:11:08 Aleksandra King: Why? Why is it not wise?

00:11:10 Emily Hughes: Because it's really rooted in disconnection. And any parenting approach that is rooted in disconnection– so sending the child away– that's not really gaining the long-term vision that you want for your family. Because one of the first questions I ask when I meet parents is, what is your long-term vision? Because this is the thing– so often in parenting, we are getting stuck in short-term gain for long-term pain. But really, when we think about what we truly want for our child's life– I believe that we all, really deeply, at our core, want to raise wise elders. Now, that might sound a bit funny if you've got a four-year-old at home, but I think that that is really the end point.

00:12:00 Aleksandra King: Good.

00:12:01 Emily Hughes: That's really the end point– is to raise a wise elder. And if you are doing that through disconnection, through blame, shame, punishment, the child is not learning how to be wise. And so I think the parent's role, through connection, is to be the wise guide, the wise teacher. Because the truth is, if your child develops emotional intelligence, parenting's going to be so much easier for you.

00:12:33 Aleksandra King: But you sometimes hear parents– and, well, parents lose it, don't they, when they get really frustrated with their kids, and they'll shout at them. And you sort of think– but when you're three, you're not going to understand what the shouting message is, are you? Can a three-year-old understand shouting?

00:12:51 Emily Hughes: I think one of the things here is, as parents, we need to be modelling the behaviour we wish to see in our children. And when we model high reactivity, and being out of control, it's not really effective. Now– I'm a realist. It's the way that most of us have been parented. It's almost impossible to parent without occasionally shouting– I'm not going to claim that that's an easy thing to do. But I think if we commit to begin again every time we shout, we're not going to get lost in the guilt and shame of the fact that we've shouted. We just commit to begin again, and try to do better. And I think one of the things about young children– young children are primed for survival. And how do they survive? Well, they survive by getting our attention, and they survive by getting our high energy. And if you are shouting at a child– of course it's not nice, but from a child's perspective, they're like, ah, I'm getting attention, and I'm getting a high source of energy from you. And for a child, that means survival. And the child's not sophisticated enough yet to be able to get that kind of high-input energy in, like, a healthier way.

00:14:12 Aleksandra King: I suppose what I'm asking is– maybe not the occasional shout, okay, some shouting– but it's maybe more, as they go through the levels– and I'm speaking just as a– I don't have parent coaching or anything, but I'm a parent of three girls who are now teenagers. My oldest is 18– 18, 16 and 14. And I found that at every stage, you would have to communicate with them a little bit differently. I mean, there would be zero point in shouting at– you can't shout at a baby, you can't shout at a one– three-year-old. What are you going to shout at them? They don't understand what you're talking about. So it's always like– you evolve with them, and your communication changes, and they can only understand certain things at certain ages. They can't work out a complicated maths formula– your whatever yelling, they're not going to really comprehend that either. So you can't even do that, even if you wanted to. But it's almost like you develop with them as they grow, and you give them what they can handle.

00:15:12 Emily Hughes: A hundred per cent, yeah. And I believe that there's no mastery in parenting. Because as soon as you feel like you've mastered parenting, as you've described, your child goes through another developmental milestone, they change, they offer you fresh materials all of the time.

00:15:27 Aleksandra King: Fresh content.

00:15:28 Emily Hughes: Yeah, fresh content. And this is really why– you mentioned growth there– I see parenting as the ultimate portal for personal growth.

00:15:39 Aleksandra King: The ultimate portal.

00:15:41 Emily Hughes: Because your child is giving you many potential triggers–

00:15:47 Aleksandra King: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

00:15:49 Emily Hughes: And each of those triggers, you have the choice as to what to do with them. So each trigger that your child gives you, we could look at it as being a gift. Now, I know that might seem like a little bit of a stretch, but it's a gift to understand yourself more deeply, and to really understand what it is to be a human as well. Because humans are emotionally messy and complicated, and parenting is the most emotionally complex thing you are ever likely to do. Embracing that as a journey of growth, and a chance to understand yourself, your children, and what it means to be alive as a human.

00:16:40 Aleksandra King: Tell that to the parents who have crayon all over their house, and mess. I mean, you've got to feel for parents sometimes, because some kids– well, there's different levels, I suppose, of madness. But these parents, they work so hard, they come back exhausted, and sometimes the kids– yeah. It is hard work. It's definitely a challenge to be a good parent, I think, for everyone.

00:17:04 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And I think, within that, one of the things that I think we need to get very clear-eyed on is the fact that we have all been sold a lie. And the biggest lie is that the nuclear family is normal. The nuclear family is not normal. If you look at the history of humans as a species, it's something like two per cent of all humans have been operating within the nuclear family, and the other 98 per cent were in tight, close-knit communities, intergenerational families living together, or tribes.

00:17:40 Aleksandra King: Okay, so by nuclear family, you mean the mum and dad, and then the siblings– just the small unit. You're not talking about the great-grandparents, and then the small unit that would support you.

00:17:50 Emily Hughes: The people who live in your house, basically. And when they study hunter-gatherer parents, in tribes that are still existing today, up to fourteen adults are responsible for each child's care. And this idea that we are meant to be thriving, parenting mainly by ourselves, is unrealistic. And the more that we can embrace that– one of the things I tell my clients is, one of the challenges of modern-day parenting is to thrive within the non-optimal situation that we find ourselves in, and to embrace the fact that it is non-optimal. We're meant to be parenting with support from many other adults, and we don't have that. And that is why it's so hard.

00:18:38 Aleksandra King: Sometimes you don't want that support, because you've got different parenting styles. So you've got the classic, like, mother-in-law– I'm lucky with my mother-in-law– but sometimes you might have one that's parenting in a way that you think, oh my goodness, you're handing them sweets, or maybe– whatever it might be. But you have differences, and that can cause friction, because parenting's a touchy subject.

00:18:59 Emily Hughes: It is a very touchy subject.

00:19:02 Aleksandra King: Parents get upset.

00:19:03 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And I think that's one of the hard things about parenting in Britain– there's so much choice on how you could parent. And in other cultures around the world, the community is the third parent. And we don't have that, because everybody's parenting in a very different way. And often parents are watching each other– because part of why we're watching each other is to be like, well, what are they doing? Should I be doing that? And this creates this environment where shame thrives. Because when we feel like people are watching us, and when we feel like we are not supported by community, and that perhaps we might be getting it wrong– shame thrives. And I think that shame is what is lurking under so much parental reactivity. And parents can find it– what– humans can find it so hard to identify that the emotion that I am feeling is shame. Because even talking about shame, people want to lean away from shame. But it is the powerful driving force underneath so much worry.

00:20:20 Aleksandra King: I mean, when you talk about this, I have about a million different thoughts, but I'll categorise them into two. The one half of my brain will sympathise, and think it's horrible to be judged, and you should parent the way that your instincts tell you– because normally your gut instinct is correct, and you should trust that. And what works in one culture might not work in another culture, and you should just really trust that, and have faith in yourself, and go for it. And then the other part of my brain says, yeah, but what about when you see these things– and you see someone's toddler going crazy, and publicly, and just misbehaving, and being completely rude to the parents– you think, why aren't you parenting? And then you are yourself being this judgy person, and it's like an instinctive thing. But also, on LBC the other day– I was driving, and I put it on, and there was an argument– honestly, it was so passionate– this conversation about kiddies being allowed into nursery school– talking about three-year-olds, four-year-olds, in nappies. And some of the callers were calling in and getting really upset, and saying that it's horrible, lazy parenting, and why is this happening? And again, you sort of feel, on the one hand, well, there must be a reason why– maybe they've had difficulty, and maybe the finances aren't in order– you don't know what happened. Maybe they're very ill. You just don't know, right? But then on the other hand, you sort of think, but yes– why is your child not out of nappies at that age? And you can't help but be judgy. I mean, it's a horrible, muddy thing to step into, but you understand what I'm saying.

00:21:54 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And I think part of this, again, leans into a more societal problem– that we don't support parents, and that we actually devalue parenting as a society, from the get-go.

00:22:07 Aleksandra King: We devalue parenting as a society. You can see that through, like, paternity leave, maternity– it's like, go, go, go, don't worry about being a parent. Even though that is your single most important job– if you decide to have this child, that's your priority.

00:22:26 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And you see that in the way that money has been taken from support services, for years. And so part of this is at a societal level, where I think parents are not supported.

00:22:40 Aleksandra King: It's a good point.

00:22:40 Emily Hughes: And I think another thing that has happened is that we, as a generation of parents– unlike perhaps our parents' generation– we've grown up aware of the impact that parenting can have on children, through the sort of mass popularisation of psychology, through the media, through culture. And we're also a much more trauma-informed society. Now, what this can end up doing, for some parents, is that they are so worried about causing harm to their child that actually they are unable to set boundaries. Because in order to set a boundary, the child needs to undergo a small amount of suffering– because it is hard for a child to meet a boundary. That's just hard. Children are not going to like your boundaries. But what can end up happening– and I would relabel that lazy parenting to being boundaryless parenting. And the thing is, with boundaryless parenting, is that it serves nobody. It doesn't serve the child, and it doesn't serve the parent. And again, it's short-term gain for long-term pain.

00:24:03 Aleksandra King: Long-term pain, yeah. All those nappies as well– the environmental impact.

00:24:08 Emily Hughes: And really, I think what this is, is parents needing more trust– that you can set boundaries, and within that boundary, the child will experience a small amount of suffering. And your role is to support the child through that suffering– not to eliminate suffering, because that's not how life works, but to support the child through that. And really, that is where we can find more progress, and more peace, in our parenting.

00:24:45 Aleksandra King: Helping each other, I think– helping each other as parents. If someone needs it, you can say, well, I'm available to do this and that. Just helping each other– I think that's quite a cool thing to do, especially when you know each other, you're all in the same– your kids are friends. You might as well– if you can help someone, that's good.

00:25:05 Emily Hughes: And also being prepared to suffer ourselves. Because I think the inconvenience of having to go everywhere with a potty, and have to get them up, and sit with them, and wait– it's all that inconvenience– we just have to also inconvenience ourselves.

00:25:21 Aleksandra King: A hundred per cent, yeah.

00:25:21 Emily Hughes: It's like, how can we feel more safe in suffering? Because growth involves suffering.

00:25:29 Aleksandra King: It does.

00:25:32 Emily Hughes: There's a nice analogy of the soft-shell crab– have you ever heard this one?

00:25:36 Aleksandra King: No, no– go on.

00:25:37 Emily Hughes: So the soft-shell crab– in order to grow, the crab needs to shed its old hard shell, which is a painful process. And then it goes through this sort of vulnerable process, where its shell is soft. And then, as it's developing and growing, that shell becomes harder, more sturdy, more resilient, more robust. But then it gets to another point where the inside of the crab is starting to outgrow the shell, and again it goes through this more vulnerable process of shedding the old shell, having the more vulnerable soft shell. And that is what parenting is like– it's this suffering, vulnerability. But how we help our child through that is through empathy. And that's the key thing– when we're setting boundaries, what will help us to set boundaries is empathy. I'm setting this boundary because it is for your good, for your long-term good, but I see this is hard for you.

00:26:38 Aleksandra King: Yeah, it's empathy. Hard to be empathetic with a screaming toddler. But you need to have that sensitivity to them.

00:26:48 Emily Hughes: And I really think empathy sets you free as well. Empathy is not just a gift for the child, it's a gift for yourself. Because when you're showing up in empathy for the child, you, simply by default, are more empathetic with yourself.

00:27:02 Aleksandra King: Why can kids– do they have some sort of innate ability to wind their parents up sometimes? Like, a toddler just saying no– the toddler is just like, no, no, no. Or teenager, or whatever. Is it because they know us, they know what buttons to push, and– actually, they are emotionally intelligent, and they know our parenting defects. Why do kids get to their parents in that way? Even, like, really top-tier CEOs– they'll crumble when their kids can floor them, humble them.

00:27:41 Emily Hughes: For the majority of the time, I think that labelling our children's behaviour as them trying to manipulate us is not helpful. Because most of the time, what it is, is a child with an unsophisticated brain that's not fully developed yet, trying to get their needs met in the only way they know how. And if that is triggering us, if that is pushing our buttons, it is because it is poking at some unhealed wound within us, or some limiting belief– that we're not good enough, or that we're not heard, or that we don't matter.

00:28:27 Aleksandra King: Okay. Okay, I'll take this a step further. So what if– and this happens, because I've spoken to a lot of parents, and I've had an experience with this myself– where you'll have the children who will play parents off against each other. So they'll say, oh, can I do this? And you say, well, no, because we don't do that. And they'll say, well, Dad said I can do it, Dad would say yes, and da-da-da. And then they'll go to Dad, and they'll be like, well, Mum said no. They'll sort of play the parents. Or they'll say things like, oh, well, you did it for so-and-so– I'm not the favourite, then, if you're not doing it for me. Clever. I don't know– that's why I say manipulative, because that is what an adult would call manipulation, because you're playing people. And they're smart kids.

00:29:21 Emily Hughes: Yeah. So what you've done there is a tool that I use in my coaching, called finding the jewel. And when you find the jewel in your child's behaviour, you are able to show up with less reactivity. So what you did there was find the jewel in the behaviour– which is, the jewel is that that's clever, that's intelligent behaviour, right? And if you are able to find the jewel– now, that doesn't mean you condone the behaviour– but if you are able to find the jewel in it, and go, I see what you're doing– then you are able to stay more grounded in your response. Whereas if you are reacting to that, you've gone down to the level of a child. And I think that there's something deeper at play here, within that. If the child knows that they can do that, then that speaks to something that has not happened within the two parents– which is to find alignment on their values. Now, you do not need to parent exactly the same as your partner, but what you might need to work on is having alignment over your values. And what I mean by your values is what you deem to be deeply important. And if you and your partner have a shared understanding of what you deem to be deeply important, then you are going to be far less easy to play off against each other.

00:30:55 Aleksandra King: They know that. Because when it comes to sweets, for example– I don't like sweets. I don't want them in the house. I don't want to hear it from the dentist– have they been eating sweets? And it's like– I don't buy them. My husband buys the sweets, brings them in the house, puts them in the cupboard, and then they go– well, Dad's bought the sweets. And it is one of those things– but Dad likes the sweets, and he wants the sweets, and he doesn't see it as a big problem that they have the occasional sweet. I don't like the sweets, I don't want them in the house– I think if it's in the house, they're tempted. So on that, no, we're not aligned.

00:31:31 Emily Hughes: You're spot on, yeah.

00:31:33 Aleksandra King: Never have been, on sweets.

00:31:35 Emily Hughes: And it might point there to– perhaps the dad has more of the value on, like, freedom, and you have more of the value– perhaps it's health. And when those two values are coming into conflict, that's really where sort of a dysfunction lies.

00:31:57 Aleksandra King: But, you know– so, if I may– I also find it's good, though. I find that it's good, especially as they get older, into teenagers, where there is a need to open up that freedom a bit more– because you have to develop, and you have to learn to be free. And if you're too protective– so actually, I think it's kind of good on some things, but bad on others. So I have no solution. I'm giving it to you.

00:32:22 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And I think, within what you said there, around sort of giving your children freedom as they grow– one of the things that can be really impactful is trust, and helping your child to develop the skill of being trustworthy. And with this sweet situation, there's a really nice piece of research, which is about– children over the age of ten respond really, really well to being given status and respect. So with something like sweets– rather than sort of telling them, you shouldn't eat sweets, they're bad for your teeth– it doesn't go down well, right? But if you give children information, and you say, this is what could happen to your teeth if you eat a lot of sweets– what do you think would be the best course of action here?– when you're honouring their status and respect, when you are helping them to be wise– giving them the opportunity to think, and be wise, so that they're not feeling controlled by you in making the decision, but they instead are feeling internally empowered– that's really where we can move forward from petty disputes about things like sweets, and actually start your child thinking about what might be the best course of action. Which is a long process, which will take many, many years– it's no quick fix. But I think this is why we need to be seeing parenting as this very long journey.

00:33:59 Aleksandra King: Oh, I've just been taken back to a memory, when I was a– a teenager– in school, primary school. There was an option to watch this thing about drugs– they gave the option to parents, and my mum was like, you're definitely going to go watch this. And I was like, oh no. But it was a horrible– I mean, I don't know why they did– they wouldn't do it in British schools here– but basically, they showed us this video of just what happens when you take drugs. Literally, these people agreed to be filmed, and then you're there watching, and you're twelve, and you're seeing this. And it was the worst thing ever. It had such an emotional, horribly awful effect on me, that I just– I do not want anything to do with drugs. Don't want it. I don't want to be that– I don't want to be that at all. And it worked. I mean, they don't do that in schools now, but that's kind of what you're saying, isn't it? Show them, rather than just an adult coming in.

00:34:56 Emily Hughes: Yeah– rather than an adult just coming in and saying, don't do this. Well, the child's brain– particularly in the teenage years, the child's brain is actually primed to be, like, risk and rebellion. The child is more primed for that than they are for, like, listening– because they need to individuate from their parents, and this is a healthy process. But it can be done in a way that honours the teenager's sovereignty, rather than taking away, and kind of squashing the teenager. I think it's really interesting to look at how other cultures raise teenagers. The happiest teenagers in the world are apparently in the Netherlands. And apparently they have just a very respectful culture with their teenagers, and there's also a great deal of listening as well, within that culture, towards teenagers. And the kind of more traditional approach, where we might be lecturing a teenager– which goes down like a ton of bricks, right– doesn't work. That's less of a thing, apparently.

00:36:20 Aleksandra King: Yeah. On the freedom thing as well– because as they become older, phones are a thing, aren't they? And apps on the phone, and everything. My husband– well, we're both really in marketing, and he specifically– he specialises in digital marketing. He knows everything about these apps, and the age of when they should have phones and everything. And I was pushing back against it, going, look, just want to leave that as late as possible– don't pollute their brains, I don't want them having all this radiation– the typical things– and we need to monitor. And he was like, look, just don't. Because if you monitor too much, and you start to take it away, they're going to want it more, and then you won't know what they're doing on the apps– because they'll have them. They will have them. And he was spot on. Because I saw this happening with basically all of the kids– and I know this for a fact– that were prohibited these apps, and their phones taken away– they all had secret accounts anyway, and they were all on other devices, and using other mechanisms to access these accounts. And this was all done behind the parents' back, because they couldn't trust the parent to allow them to have the technology. And I was going to go down that ultra-strict route for as long as I possibly could, and it's only thanks to my husband that I didn't, and I'm grateful for it. He was right. Because actually, giving them that access to it, and then just explaining it to them– and he did a lot of training them on how the apps work, and how they're going to send you information– if you watch something once, it's going to go into a program– he explained it to them, and even made them do some work on it– for them to run a campaign, and then see how that's fed back to them. So he's even got them learning about digital marketing. But that actually helped them. And then, when it came to my daughter, in her studies, she goes, I'm switching off TikTok. I'm totally deleting it for the whole of my exam period, because it's having an effect on me, and I'm getting too addicted, so I'm going to switch it off myself. She did it herself– I had nothing to do with it. So in that way, the giving freedom, and not prohibiting them– that was useful, for the teenagers, weirdly– where you think the opposite: teenagers need to be more controlled. It's instinct to control them, isn't it?

00:38:35 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And I think, with technology in general, I think that parents do a disservice to themselves and to their kids if they don't ask this crucial question: are the phones serving the family? Because technology is here to serve us. And if it is costing us more than it is serving us– and it might be costing us if the child is doing these sneaky behaviours behind the parents' back– that's the question we really need to come back to. And I love the example you used there, because it sounded like your husband was doing the thing that I really think teenagers need, which is media literacy, and critical thinking skills. Because media literacy– the ability to look at the content and critically analyse it, and question it, and not to take it at face value, but be curious, and ask, what is this video normalising? And is that normal?

00:39:42 Aleksandra King: Yeah– it's emotional intelligence again.

00:39:45 Emily Hughes: Critical thinking– that's what is going to protect your child.

00:39:49 Aleksandra King: Yeah, it's good. I like it when they come to you with it, and they're like, look what they're showing now. And if something bothers them– because they're allowed it– they'll actually show it off, and I'll be like, oh no, that's that thing where it will burn your body if you do this– because there's some– sometimes they have these challenges that they want kids to do, where they're very dangerous. And they'll show it to you– oh look, this is going around again, or, what do you think about this? You're like, oh my word, what's that, that's going around? But otherwise you would never have that intel.

00:40:19 Emily Hughes: Yeah– if you didn't have that trust. And it is intel.

00:40:22 Aleksandra King: But I think it's different with parenting smaller kids, where you can't– if you gave them that phone, they'd be gone. They'd never see you– never see them again.

00:40:28 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And in that sense, it's probably different, isn't it? I mean, a technology like phones, screens– it's like a doughnut, right? A doughnut is nice– it's sweet– but you wouldn't let your child have twenty doughnuts, because then that would not be healthy. It's exactly the same. We don't want to deny our child the doughnut every time, but also, you wouldn't give them twenty doughnuts. And I think it goes back to the boundaries– it's like having boundaries, but also, with teenagers, respecting the child within the boundary. And really, the best kind of boundaries that work with teenagers are the ones where the child feels respected within the boundary, and where the child has some buy-in with the boundary. So where the child understands that, yeah, this boundary's here to help me develop healthy habits, this boundary's here to help me get the values of the family, this boundary's here to keep me safe. This boundary is not here to control me, or squelch me. This boundary is here to give me skills for the future.

00:41:43 Aleksandra King: Yeah. So let's talk about– because we spoke about the community. So we've got this nuclear family, and yes, most of us are in this nuclear family– we don't have the privilege of having all the grandparents, and everyone. Some of us, they're living abroad, and there's all that kind of situation, or different cities, towns– it's quite difficult. But then you've got the other influences. So you've got the nearby kids, and the kids in the school, or your university, or whatever it is– nursery school. And nursery schools have different ways of looking after kids– it's so different, you go to one than the other– the parenting style, the upbringing style, whatever you want to call it. I mean, the famous case of Molly-Mae recently, with the whole– the toddlers biting each other in the nursery school. And of course, toddlers are allowed to do things like that, because they're toddlers, but then of course the nursery school will put mechanisms in place, hopefully, to prevent that. And some nurseries might be doing it differently to other nurseries. But there are these other influences, and you let your child go, and it goes into these spaces. And how do you know– how do you even choose a place? And sometimes you might not even be able to– you're just living in a neighbourhood that's maybe not the greatest, and then your kid is in the school, and then it gets really influenced. So you have to– what– you double up on parenting? How do you even navigate this?

00:43:07 Emily Hughes: It's hard. And again, we live in a non-optimal society. But I think one of the most important things to remember is that, whatever the outside influence, you should be the primary source of influence for your child. And how you do that is by doubling down on belonging. So your home needs to be a deep place of belonging for your child. And if the child feels that they deeply belong in the family, everything else is slightly less important. And, you know, in our culture– and belonging is the opposite of shame. So if you want to raise confident kids, who are secure in themselves, we double down on belonging. And really, within this is also, like, an attachment piece. So if we think of Daniel Siegel's four S's of attachment– the child needs to be safe at home. So that's emotionally safe– they're going to do an emotion, and the parent is going to hold them through that emotion, not try to fix it or squelch it. Your emotions are valid. And obviously, physically safe.

00:44:26 Aleksandra King: They are valid, aren't they?

00:44:27 Emily Hughes: They are valid. The child needs to be seen– and by that, that means you need to listen to your child, more than you go in to fix, more than you go in to give advice. Listening to your child, so that they feel deeply understood. Because if a child feels deeply understood at home, they are able to weather the storms of being not understood in other environments– if they feel deeply understood at home. Soothed is the next S. And really, the world would be a much, much better place if everybody was more soothed.

00:45:06 Aleksandra King: And so often, as parents, that is what we're needing.

00:45:10 Emily Hughes: Yes, exactly– so often, as parents, that's what we're needing, is to feel more soothed. And then, basically, if you do those three things repeatedly, over time, that creates the fourth S, which is a secure attachment. And a secure attachment– it transcends all time and space, throughout the child's life. Because if a child is securely attached to their caregivers at home, it's like giving the child a protective force field. So they can go into situations where people don't understand them, or maybe it's not the ideal situation, and they can know, I have inherent worth.

00:45:54 Aleksandra King: Oh, I love that. That's powerful. There's also something that I was thinking about– and I do think about a lot, throughout parenting– but I saw it yesterday. I went to the park, and there was a granddad and a little toddler. They had only sort of got there, and they were talking, and da-da-da, and the little kid was playing really nicely on the swings, granddad having a wonderful time. And then, just soon after that– not many minutes went by– and then the granddad– come on, we need to go back now, we need to go back now. And the little kid didn't want to, and it was like, no, come on. And actually, I felt really sorry for the kid. Because obviously, yes, his mummy's home, and you think, so what, that she's home? Give the kid a break. It's probably been trapped in some nursery or whatever– it's finally outside– what a lovely– it's just before sunset, it was really lovely to be out there. And you sort of– you felt for the child. I was with the kid, actually. And the kid started getting frustrated with his grandpa, who was now insisting, oh, come on now, we need to go. And the kid was protesting. But it was right, I think– I'm sure they had their reasons, and you can rationalise as an adult– but what if the kid is right?

00:47:11 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And I think what you point to there is– the child's primary need is for play– and attachment– play. And really, we live in a society that's quite prejudiced against children– as in, we deem the adult to be more important than the child. And you see this in, like, all aspects of life. But really, when we question that for a moment, and we say, well, why are we so prejudiced against the child? The child is a human– they are just a less developed human. Now, that doesn't mean we put the child's needs above all else, but it does mean we might have empathy for the child whilst we set the boundary. That we kind of see their needs, that we see their pain. Doesn't mean that we always have to bend to that, and accommodate it, but we can be kind as we go through, and progress, and set boundaries– because the child is a person. And if we kind of respect their personhood whilst we parent, then it's easier for them, and it's easier for us. So setting boundaries, but doing so with kindness, love and empathy– it's like strength and softness, both together. And if we're too soft, or we're too strong– it's really finding that middle ground that is the way through. We become great leaders.

00:48:44 Aleksandra King: You see, you speak a lot about belonging, and this connection. And what it seems to me that you're saying is– I suppose it makes sense– you want to stay close to your child, and to understand them– what they want, what's right for them– to be empathetic to their needs. It's not all about you, and your job, and where you need to go, but it's also about them, and them being outside. It's giving that time, and that sensitivity, to their experience, and their world. For it to be more about them, I think.

00:49:23 Emily Hughes: I think the child is a member of the community. So the child is important, the parent is also important, and the family unit is important. And the world should not revolve around the child, but the world should also not revolve around the parent. You are a collective of people. And when we respect each other's needs within the community– doesn't mean we always have to be able to meet the need– but when we respect the need, that's where we find more peace in our families.

00:49:55 Aleksandra King: Okay. So, to bring up a kid, a child, to an adult that's a resilient adult, that can survive in today's hectic world– how do we do that? Because a lot of the time, with the schools, the conditioning is to always be a people-pleaser– teacher-pleaser. Yes please, no thank you, sit there, be quiet, don't have an opinion. There is a bit of that, and sometimes kids are a bit boxed in, and they have to just be very goody-goody two-shoes, or they won't do well in the school. But then again– of course it depends on the school– but some will run riot, and then they've got no boundaries, or whatever, and then they grow up like that. But how do we allow them to be ones that have the opinions, that are risk-takers, but also obedient, in a way, when they need to be?

00:50:46 Emily Hughes: This is the great challenge. And, you know, I think people-pleasing is not a helpful term– people-pleasing is self-abandonment. It is denying your own needs in order to prioritise somebody else's needs.

00:50:59 Aleksandra King: Okay– teacher-pleasing, then. Let's put, controversially, teacher-pleasing. The teacher said, shush, be quiet, don't talk, don't do this, don't do that, and you have to be quiet because the lesson is going. But what if your opinion is valid?

00:51:13 Emily Hughes: I think one of the things about school– and I was a secondary school teacher for ten years– one of the things about school that I think is very helpful to think about is that it's a game. And if we tell our kids that school is a game, and we play the game well, we get good outcomes– where we really and truly belong is at home, and that's where we derive our inherent worth from. And school is a game that we play. And it's kind of like respecting that school has these rules, and that sometimes we may not get our needs met at school. Our need to be heard may not be met, our need for freedom may not be met. And really, this is where we can honour those needs in the times out of school. And really tuning in to, what are your child's unique, most prevalent needs? So, for example, one of my kids has a high need for freedom, and he comes home from school and he says, I've just been told what to do all day.

00:52:32 Aleksandra King: It's like– they feel like that.

00:52:34 Emily Hughes: Yeah. And so, to give him some space, in the time after school, where he is allowed to be free– and I find he's so much more cooperative with me if I'm able to give him that space. If your child has a strong need to be heard, and they do not get that need met at school, then you need to be meeting that need– perhaps by creating times when you listen to them, and then, when there's a pause in the listening, you ask them, is there anything more? Tell me some more about that. And you give them more of an opportunity to be heard. And you highlight to the child the needs that they're not getting met at school, so that they can understand why they find it hard at school. Because really, all we are as humans is a bag of feelings and needs. And feelings and needs drive all of our behaviour. So the more you can empathise with your child's feelings and needs, and help them understand their own feelings and needs, the more we're creating children who can go through life and become resilient– because they know themselves.

00:53:47 Aleksandra King: And on the subject of resilience– and parents will definitely be watching, and having a similar experience, and wanting to know more about it– is it okay for the parent to sometimes step in? So if there's a bully– every school has a rogue bully, every school has someone that's annoying– sorry, we'll call them that– a kid that's maybe a bit– and also the parents of the kid, also, being quite– always getting involved. When is it okay, as a parent, to also step in, and come in, and just save your child– or, like, stand with them? And when is it not okay, and let them sort of go through it, to be resilient?

00:54:32 Emily Hughes: Yeah. I think this speaks to something a little bit deeper, which is about the difference between being in a fixing energy, to being in a holding-space energy. So when you're in a fixing energy, everything feels like an emergency, everything feels very urgent– we need to go in, we need to fix, we need to sort this out now. And so many parents are in that fixing energy, because no one in their life has ever held space for them. A holding-space energy is much slower, more trusting, more grounded. It trusts that, with space, time, guidance and support, the child will be able to solve their own problems. That doesn't mean we leave them alone– because of course, sometimes it's right for you to step in, of course it is– but we do so with a slower pace. Not with the urgency and emergency, but with a more trusting pace. And one of the greatest things I think we can teach our children is about boundaries– their own boundaries. So obviously we've spoken about boundaries in the context of, sort of, rules and guidelines, but there's another way of looking at boundaries, which is how they protect their energy– those kind of emotional– their energy. Because kids can be mean to each other– we know kids can get out of control. And a kid with weak boundaries is like an open target for bullies. But a kid who understands their boundaries, who knows their worth, who knows that they belong, who has a stronger boundary– they're less of a target for bullies. Because when a bully tries to take their energy, the child protects their energy.

00:56:30 Aleksandra King: Yeah. And they need those lessons. They need the bullies, and the rogue ones, and the strange ones, and these ones, and the ones that don't talk, and the ones that talk too much– because that's going to be life. So if they don't practise now– not everything's rosy. Please do encounter a bully, and a weird one, and a wacky type, and one that you don't understand, and the nice ones– and encounter them all, because that's going to be the kaleidoscope of–

00:56:57 Emily Hughes: And added to this– one of the most important things you can do as a parent is give your child a healthy set of beliefs. Because if your child has a great set of beliefs– things like, I am inherently good enough, I am worthy of love and belonging, I'm a good person, I can handle things, I am capable– if your child has those beliefs, then they can go through the schooling system, they can experience times when things are tough, and they will be able to thrive, and overcome. And so often, parents get it wrong, in that they think their role is to sort of double down on academics– make my child great at, like, ten different– they can play piano, they can swim– but do they have a good set of beliefs? And sometimes those activities– swimming, or whatever it might be– can aid those beliefs. But sometimes, if a child is so busy, they don't get the space to develop those beliefs, and the kind of guidance, and the being held, in order to grow those beliefs.

00:58:13 Aleksandra King: We've just done a full 360, and we've come back to the very first question, which was– when I said the most popular, most asked question about parenting is, am I a good parent– and you said, it's, am I a capable parent. And it's the belief that you are, and then getting the skills– whether it's a coach, someone to help you, someone to speak to, to sharpen those skills– because we're all works in progress. I always say it on this show– we're all work in progress, and whatever way you can improve, and be better, do it, because we can all be better, all of us. But am I capable? Am I a good parent? Yes you are, and you can do it. It's been wonderful having you on. Thank you.

00:59:01 Emily Hughes: It's been fun. Thank you so much. Really enjoyed it, thanks.