Addiction, Recovery & Building a Purpose-Driven Life | Jane Couper

Interview

00:00:08 Aleksandra King: Jane, hello! Welcome to Beyond the Boardroom.

00:00:11 Jane Couper: Thank you for having me.

00:00:12 Aleksandra King: I'm super excited to have you on. You are quite something. Shall I list– shall I list all these accolades? Right. You're the founder of Red Wolf Technologies Limited. You are the co-founder and CEO of Novella Healthcare. You are also the co-chair for APSCo– I hope I'm saying that correctly– Clinical and Healthcare sector. You've also been a director of several companies. You are a motivational speaker. You're also a mum. And you're also, from what I've seen so far, a very lovely person. Does that sum up the– do you–

00:00:55 Jane Couper: I guess so. It's a– yeah.

00:00:57 Aleksandra King: Yeah. These are, you know, these are pretty significant achievements. It's pretty cool, you know, to have all of that and be like, look, I've, you know, I'm the founder of these businesses, I've done this, I've done that. You're clearly pretty entrepreneurial, let's– let's be, you know, let's be honest.

00:01:11 Jane Couper: Yeah. I think I just get excited about things.

00:01:13 Aleksandra King: You like– you like business, you're doing stuff, you're making the effort, and I would say you've achieved a decent amount of success. However, your journey to get to this point has been pretty tough, to say the least, and it included drug abuse and alcohol abuse and mental health struggles. It's not been easy for you. I'm thrilled to have you on– you're very brave to come on and share this journey with us. And I suppose, first question, what I want to know is, why did you feel it's important to share your journey with us?

00:01:59 Jane Couper: I have tried to share as much as I'm comfortable with, I suppose, for a little while now. I was asked to speak in a school to begin with, going back seven or eight years, by a friend who knew my story, and asked to speak. And at the time I said no, instantly, and thought that that was a silly idea–

00:02:19 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:02:19 Jane Couper: –and who would want to listen to my story? Lots of people have tough stories and tough backgrounds, and just didn't see myself as that person, really. But she talked me into it, and I'm glad she did, and it made me realise how much young people these days– and all people, but particularly young people– are struggling with life and mental health battles. And could see that it had helped maybe just one or two people in that room, and that made it worth getting a little bit uncomfortable for, and doing it again and again.

00:02:48 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I mean, this podcast, you know, we cover– I mean, there's lots of things we cover, but I suppose the central theme to what encapsulates what this podcast is about, it's like a– it's an inner confidence, you know, to go for stuff in business but also in your personal life, you know– to overcome challenges, to achieve things, to, I suppose, fight your inner demons, to– whatever it is, fight the laziness or fight the temptations, whatever it may be. It's kind of like working through that, to be confident enough to take charge of your life and go forward. So I feel you're very well placed to be on this podcast, and lots of people, as you say, are struggling with these issues, and I just want to have a conversation with you about it. I feel like your story is crazy. Like, it's mad. Like, it's–

00:03:42 Jane Couper: Yeah, it's colourful.

00:03:44 Aleksandra King: It's a very colourful story.

00:03:45 Jane Couper: Yeah. It's good you're wearing red. Enjoy the ride.

00:03:50 Aleksandra King: Yeah. So, first of all, you grew up in– did you grow up in Glasgow?

00:03:54 Jane Couper: No, I grew up in Bolton.

00:03:55 Aleksandra King: You grew up in Bolton– because obviously you don't have a– no Scottish accent. So what's the Glasgow connection?

00:04:00 Jane Couper: I went to university in Glasgow. I wanted to study forensics, and that was the best place.

00:04:04 Aleksandra King: Forensics!

00:04:04 Jane Couper: Yes. I always do everything to fairly Olympic standards, so I searched for where the best place was to do it, and went to Glasgow.

00:04:12 Aleksandra King: That's– that's okay. Forensics is– I haven't heard that on the podcast– something. And then you moved to–

00:04:20 Jane Couper: Yeah, when I finished at Glasgow I moved back down– I moved home to Bolton– and lasted maybe eight weeks, I think. Once you've come away from living at home, it's hard to go back, isn't it? And quickly moved to a flat in Manchester with friends.

00:04:35 Aleksandra King: So what led you to move to Manchester? Like, what was the idea of Manchester?

00:04:41 Jane Couper: It just happened, if I'm honest. There was nothing too purposeful at that point. I took a break from forensics I'd been studying. I'd had a bit of a tough time at university, with a couple of things that happened, and I just decided to get a job. I got a job on 12 grand in a call centre at Bupa, and it just was to kind of fill a gap to begin with, while I worked out what I did, and then things just went from there.

00:05:10 Aleksandra King: What was it at uni that was tough? What was it?

00:05:14 Jane Couper: I think, looking back, that I already struggled with mental health. I think depression had kicked in by the time I was a teenager, really, and struggled through school, got to university and struggled more. And then one of my close friends from home died in a car accident, and that was really tough to deal with at that age. You know, we were 20, and going on nights out and all.

00:05:41 Aleksandra King: That really affected you.

00:05:43 Jane Couper: Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

00:05:45 Aleksandra King: You already felt sort of depressed and sad. Was there any reason that you were feeling like this? Did you know what was causing the sadness, or did you–

00:05:53 Jane Couper: No, I didn't at the time. I mean, looking back, I think just not fitting in, and not feeling a part of the world. You know, I'm in a civil partnership– I'm gay, now happily married to a woman. But to grow up in the 80s and 90s, and to be a gay person walking in this world, was not an easy one. It wasn't something people spoke about, and, you know, is still more difficult these days.

00:06:17 Aleksandra King: So you didn't talk about it at that–

00:06:19 Jane Couper: No– I wouldn't even to myself. I still tried to date boys, and tried to be somebody that I wasn't, which is incredibly uncomfortable, and, you know, it's damaging to mental health. It takes its toll after a time.

00:06:31 Aleksandra King: That is uncomfortable, because you're walking around– yeah, you're not being true to yourself, and it's going to affect every single response to everything that you encounter.

00:06:40 Jane Couper: You know, your internal message is that you're not good enough, you don't fit in, you know, there's something wrong with you– you know, all those things. And, you know, insults are still used on the playground around being gay. It's still used as an insult, particularly amongst lads, and you know, it's–

00:06:56 Aleksandra King: At school, did you get bullied in that way? But you– but you concealed it, so you–

00:07:00 Jane Couper: Yeah– not for being gay, but I was a tomboy. You know, all I wanted to do was play football. Girls weren't allowed to play football.

00:07:06 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:07:07 Jane Couper: I, you know, I just didn't– certainly didn't fit into the in crowd, if you know–

00:07:11 Aleksandra King: There is still football, I know.

00:07:13 Jane Couper: Yeah. I mean, now I really enjoy it, and it's great, and, you know, some of my closest friends have come from football.

00:07:20 Aleksandra King: And that's right, you know– and that's incredible.

00:07:22 Jane Couper: But at the time, I was told I wasn't allowed to play. You know, that was wrong. You know, there was so many things that told you, subtly, that it was wrong. It wasn't that anybody ever told me, you know, you can't be gay– because, no, I didn't tell anybody that I was. I didn't tell myself I was.

00:07:38 Aleksandra King: Not your– not your parents? You didn't have any–

00:07:41 Jane Couper: No. We never had a conversation.

00:07:42 Aleksandra King: No friends to disclose that? You didn't want it–

00:07:45 Jane Couper: I don't think in those days people did anyway. I just don't think they did. I think it is different now, and it's better, but we're still not there. You know, the only people that think it's probably okay to be gay, and there's nothing different these days than there was, is straight people. There's still very much, yeah, you know, an underlying tone in society– that it's still not quite there.

00:08:09 Aleksandra King: So you've gone to Manchester. And then what was it about the scene– sort of the clubs, the social circles, the bars– that kind of drew you into that sort of world?

00:08:26 Jane Couper: I don't know, really. I mean, I enjoyed going out– I think most people did at that age. And I'd gone from not fitting in at school, and not really having friends, and being quite a loner, to all of a sudden finding people that I enjoyed spending time with. And, you know, we had a good time, and I lived with a girl who, you know, we were incredibly close very, very quickly, and shared a bond. And, yeah, I just enjoyed it, to an extent. But I still, for that first year or two of being in Manchester, was trying to date boys and be somebody that I wasn't.

00:09:08 Aleksandra King: Okay, so you've got a friend now, you're living together– were you living together at the time– and you're going out and you're partying, and you're sort of enjoying it, sort of getting into that whole thing. That's– someone on the podcast last week was saying that it's just something you fall into, isn't it? It's a whole club scene, and everyone's going out, and everyone's–

00:09:27 Jane Couper: It is.

00:09:28 Aleksandra King: –whatever, partying and stuff.

00:09:30 Jane Couper: Yeah. It sounds bizarre now, looking back, but she was a model, and, you know, moved in circles where it meant we were going to Man United footballers' dos, and, you know– yeah, you know, big celebrities that people knew. And we would always get into any of those clubs, because of who she knew, and her modelling and things like that– and living a life that most people would have thought was just wonderful.

00:09:56 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Who wouldn't want to live that life at that age?

00:09:59 Jane Couper: You know, it was great, to an extent, but I think behind the scenes I still was struggling.

00:10:06 Aleksandra King: Yeah. So you still felt something inside you not quite right, but to the outside world you're partying– you're actually, you know, you're enjoying this lifestyle, because that's sort of what's going on, that's the theme of the–

00:10:19 Jane Couper: Yeah. I had some really good friends from sixth form college and Bolton, and I kind of lost touch with them, because I was trying to pretend to myself and everybody else that I was having this great time, and they genuinely thought that I was. And, you know, a couple of years later, when it all came tumbling down, and one of the first things I needed to do was to reach out to people that I knew would just be there–

00:10:43 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:10:43 Jane Couper: –they just couldn't believe that I'd gone through all of this for a few years without knowing. They just thought I was having this great time. Remember, there was no social media then.

00:10:52 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:10:52 Jane Couper: You know, we're talking 2001 to 2005-ish. And the odd time I spoke to them, which was very rare, they just thought I was having this great time.

00:11:05 Aleksandra King: Yeah. So you sort of drifted away from them a little bit, and you're drifting into this world– gap between a lot of people– and in this world you've got these big celebrity parties that you're going to. It's really fun, it's– it's madness, it's all those shiny, lovely things– and that includes drugs and alcohol, I'm sure.

00:11:25 Jane Couper: Yeah.

00:11:25 Aleksandra King: So when did you first try drugs?

00:11:30 Jane Couper: Probably a few months into that scene. Was just readily available, as I'm sure it is these days still– I don't know, a long way away from it now– but I think it was so available.

00:11:43 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:11:44 Jane Couper: Now, obviously, I just think about my kids, and– terrified now.

00:11:48 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I wish you didn't know– you're a great– yeah, you're a great mum, because you're going to be like–

00:11:52 Jane Couper: Yeah, we'll spot it quite easily.

00:11:54 Aleksandra King: Yeah, you're gonna know.

00:11:55 Jane Couper: Yeah. And it was just readily available. And I think– because you say that these nights were great fun, but actually I was stood in those rooms with, I think, you know– call it what you want, imposter syndrome or whatever else we call all these feelings– I didn't feel like I fit in in any way. You know, I wasn't a celebrity. I didn't feel like I looked the part. I didn't– you know, I was gay and nobody knew it. I was there pretending, you know, flirting with men, which is really uncomfortable for me. And so did I have fun? I don't know. I played a part.

00:12:30 Aleksandra King: Well, that must be really difficult, because you're flirting with, you know, these guys, and you don't– you're not fancying them at all. It must be just the– difficult, you know, thing.

00:12:39 Jane Couper: I think you're trained to ignore that feeling inside, of butterflies, and that little feeling in your tummy when you're attracted to somebody. That's lovely, and everybody has a right to have that feeling, and I didn't. Because for all those years, when everybody else was having all those exciting feelings, and, you know, enjoying those first dates and everything, I was pushing all of that down, thinking– or trying to convince myself– it was something else, and going on dates with guys and thinking, I must be attracted to this guy, because he's attractive, right? You know– or, I must be attracted to this guy because all the other girls are, so he's attractive, so therefore I must date him.

00:13:16 Aleksandra King: You can't– you can't pretend.

00:13:19 Jane Couper: You know, to think– I was 22 before I admitted first having feelings for a girl. You know, that's–

00:13:27 Aleksandra King: That's tough. So which girl was that?

00:13:30 Jane Couper: A long time– well, I'm going to protect her privacy here, because she–

00:13:34 Aleksandra King: No, no– don't say her name. But which– was it the girl that you were staying with?

00:13:37 Jane Couper: Yes. Yeah. And do you know what, you couldn't ask for a better response. She just kind of went, oh, everybody falls in love with me– why don't we just go out and see what other girls you're attracted to?

00:13:48 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Chill.

00:13:49 Jane Couper: And I thought my world would end. You know, I thought this was– this was it, you know– my world would end. And she got me to go and sit down with my mum, and go back to Bolton and chat with friends, and, you know, she was incredible.

00:14:01 Aleksandra King: How was that for you, going– going to your mum and your friends?

00:14:07 Jane Couper: Hard, and yet lovely as well. Because, you know, those friends I've got from Bolton are proper, proper friends. You know, I grew up with them, to an extent– most of them I met at sixth form. As I say, school wasn't a great time, but at sixth form I made some friends that are just down-to-earth people. They're just authentic, genuinely good people. And they were just upset that I'd not been able to talk to them, or that I thought they would see me any other way. And I didn't necessarily– I don't think it was as much about them as it was about me accepting things.

00:14:39 Aleksandra King: Yeah, that's right– you have to accept yourself. But did they suspect anything? Did they think, like, come on, you know–

00:14:44 Jane Couper: Oh, yeah– I don't think they were surprised. I just don't think they'd overthought about it either, because it's not a big deal to anybody else.

00:14:51 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:14:52 Jane Couper: You know– and it isn't. But what a lot of people don't see is, if I walk down the street and hold hands with my partner, people take a second look. Sometimes they're not being nasty, they're not being difficult, or they're not– but, yeah, you know, it's different, so they take a second look. I don't want that second look. I get embarrassed, or I get uncomfortable, or I just want to go through life without the second look. Yeah– even now. Even now less so, maybe, than 20 years ago, but still.

00:15:25 Aleksandra King: Well, hopefully coming on this podcast will help the second look stop. It's rude.

00:15:29 Jane Couper: Yeah. I don't– people aren't meaning to be rude, are they? I think we all second– you know, it's there.

00:15:34 Aleksandra King: In some cultures they just stare. I mean, I'm Polish, but in Poland, Polish people love to stare. Like, you sit, you know, in an airport, and it– and, you know–

00:15:44 Jane Couper: We're still in a world where it's illegal to be gay in some countries. You know, when me and my– we have two children together, two beautiful children– we're very blessed, we've had IVF– and then we– and we have this lovely family, and we're the only gay family in our school, in our primary school of, you know, however many hundreds of children. And we know that if we travel– I am conscious of where we travel, because I don't want my children to be intimidated, or to realise– that– actually, they're still young, you know– they're nine and six, and that's young to know that there's some hatred out there, and there's some–

00:16:19 Aleksandra King: Oh, dangerous– in dangerous– absolutely.

00:16:21 Jane Couper: Don't– you know, I've experienced it when I've travelled, and I choose not to put myself in those situations with children.

00:16:26 Aleksandra King: Yeah. It's a high-stress, dangerous environment. You're already going through enough. You know, you've got to be true to yourself, and you can't be putting yourself and your family in a dangerous situation, where you have to overcome all of that when you're still trying to–

00:16:41 Jane Couper: Yeah, absolutely. But equally, you know, we choose to not– you know, that doesn't define who we are. We're just a normal family. We– you know, there's love, there's laughter, there's, you know, this incredible want to do right by our children, and for them to enjoy life and make the most of every moment.

00:16:57 Aleksandra King: It becomes about the kids. It becomes– they're more than, like– your life becomes so secondary, tertiary, whatever you want to call it. It just isn't the main thing, is it?

00:17:07 Jane Couper: No. You know, we've started by speaking about this, but actually it doesn't really come up day-to-day for me anymore. I don't talk about it, I don't tend to think about it too much, because it's in the– I dealt with it a long time ago, and I've accepted the world as it is, and just tried to make the most of the world it is– which we're all doing. We all have reasons that we perhaps feel we don't fit into the world, so it's no different.

00:17:30 Aleksandra King: It's also important, I feel like– when you talk about these things, you get to understand someone. You know, you get to connect, you get to feel what's going on in their heart and their soul. And when you communicate, you get– you just understand, and you're more accepting of things. I think the public become more accepting when they understand these things on a deeper level– like what you go through, the feelings, the rejection, the acceptance, the fear, you know, the danger. I feel like that's all pretty important to hear. I know it's, yeah, uncomfortable possibly– the last thing you want is to be talking about it– but it's like, should we be talking about it, you know?

00:18:10 Jane Couper: Yeah, I think so. And I think what's important is, you know, in the years that– that went– it tumbled, really, which I'm sure we'll come on to– from going to these parties, and then into this world of drink and drugs that became less savoury, I suppose. And I was unkind in some of those times, and I was not a nice person in some of those moments, and I did things that now I– you know, I'm ashamed of, to some extent. I've forgiven myself, but, you know, wouldn't– wouldn't ever do again. And, you know, when I see people that are sometimes acting in an unkind way– I remember that I was sometimes that person, and all I needed was kindness. And it's so hard, isn't it? Because if somebody's attacking you in any way, or being difficult to be around, or being unkind and being mean, or just being a not very nice person, you know, with attitude and anything else– it's not easy to be around, and why should you be kind to them if they haven't been? But actually, I think a lot of people just need kindness, because underneath, it probably comes from a place of hurt.

00:19:17 Aleksandra King: And, yeah, there's something they're fighting there. Yeah– and it's– yeah, it can't be easy. So what was that experience like– you took drugs for the first time, what was that like? You're actually quite older– [unclear: 22, 23?]– and that's the first time?

00:19:36 Jane Couper: Yeah.

00:19:37 Aleksandra King: Who gave you– I mean, don't say a name, but, like, obviously was in the club?

00:19:41 Jane Couper: It's just in the club, yeah. Yeah, and in bars, and people that would come back to our apartment, or we'd have– and yeah.

00:19:48 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I think– did you not get– were you terrified the first time you saw the drugs? You thought, oh, that's drugs, oh my God?

00:19:53 Jane Couper: Yeah– no. I mean, I drank quite a lot, and, you know, I think it just gradually came into my awareness that drugs were around, and that just became more normal.

00:20:05 Aleksandra King: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, things do become normal, even when they're not to everybody else. In your world, if they're around all the time, then it gradually becomes normal.

00:20:12 Jane Couper: There's no point where I can remember thinking, I'm going to do this now. I don't remember the first time I did it, or made the decision to– it just sort of blended with–

00:20:22 Aleksandra King: So you were, you know, drinking, going out, so obviously inhibitions are down anyway. The drugs are there, people are trying it. Did your flatmate– obviously trying it as well, or no?

00:20:33 Jane Couper: No, she didn't. No, no, no, no. It was– it was just me. I– she didn't need to. I think, for me, drink and drugs were an escape for me by that point, and when your depression is quite bad, it's escape. You know, anything that– anything–

00:20:55 Aleksandra King: You made the choice to take them, basically. You– you wanted–

00:20:58 Jane Couper: I remember a conscious choice, but– yeah, I would have done anything to escape. And I think you've got to– you've got to remember that things– things happen gradually, don't they? So there's not a– for me, anyway, there was never a moment– until further in the journey, when there was moments that I wanted things to end. But in the lead-up to that, it was just that I started to care less about being here– that perhaps I didn't mind whether I was here or not. I know that sounds a silly thing to say– it's the best way I can describe how I was feeling.

00:21:30 Aleksandra King: Yeah, yeah. Yeah– but so you weren't very kind to your body. You were like–

00:21:36 Jane Couper: No, no.

00:21:36 Aleksandra King: And put yourself in situations that were dangerous–

00:21:39 Jane Couper: And it happens, yeah.

00:21:40 Aleksandra King: You didn't really– yeah.

00:21:42 Jane Couper: And it's funny, because the less you care about being here, the more confident you become, you know, in going into those situations– because you're like, well, I don't care if I get hurt, I don't care if, you know, if such a thing happens.

00:21:55 Aleksandra King: So at this point, if they're passing around all these different drugs, you're probably not even that interested in maybe what's, you know– you're not going to be like, what exactly is in this, how is it– you know, you're just sort of like, yeah, you know, who cares. And this is all messing with your– your mind, and it's chemicals, and it's the alcohol, and it's all going–

00:22:13 Jane Couper: Yeah. I know. You know, the thing with some drugs and alcohol is, it makes you feel better in that moment. It makes you feel more confident– I suppose it depends which drug you take, I'm not very experienced in a lot of drugs– but, you know, for a moment it makes you feel better. And I think when you've got depression, and you just feel dark and nothing for so much of the time, that feeling something can be better than feeling nothing, for a little bit.

00:22:38 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Well, I mean, it takes me to the whole Liam Payne thing, doesn't it? You heard about Liam Payne, from 1D. It's like– yeah, you sort of think, for someone on the outside looking, you think, but why did you take this stuff? Like, why did you do that? No– stop, stop, stop, stop. Like, why would you do that? Clearly it's going to be dangerous, clearly you're going to be out of control. Why would you waste your beautiful life? You're a star, you're this– why– why would you do– like, what is going on? Surely you can just say no to that.

00:23:02 Jane Couper: Yeah.

00:23:03 Aleksandra King: Surely. It just doesn't work that way.

00:23:06 Jane Couper: It just doesn't. Why do you want to, if you don't care enough? I don't know the guy– you know, it's different for everybody, isn't it? But that could have easily been me. I could have fallen off a balcony, I could have, you know, been run over– I could have done lots of things, and I'm lucky that I'm still here, and those things didn't happen. But I think, certainly, I put myself in–

00:23:24 Aleksandra King: I think what I'm getting from you– that it's just– it's shocking, in a way. It's like– you didn't– you didn't care that the drugs were harming you. You were okay to hurt your body in that way. You were okay to–

00:23:36 Jane Couper: To an extent, felt I deserved it. I, by that time, didn't believe I was that nice a person, you know, so–

00:23:43 Aleksandra King: Yeah. You've given up on yourself, in a way.

00:23:46 Jane Couper: Yeah. Yeah.

00:23:48 Aleksandra King: And the drugs are shielding you, and the alcohol sort of protecting you, in a way, isn't it, really?

00:23:53 Jane Couper: Yeah.

00:23:55 Aleksandra King: So you're in this world, you're doing that– it's sort of building up now. So at what point did you realise that, you know, the drugs and alcohol becoming a– a problem now?

00:24:05 Jane Couper: Well, at this point, myself and my friend kind of had gone slightly separate ways. She'd met a guy, you know, at one of these parties we'd been to– who she's married to now, has children with, and is still an incredible friend. And so she'd kind of moved in with him, and so I had this apartment, and all this kind of time. And I got into another relationship, with a woman, for the first time. And I think I just had the freedom to take even more, because there was nobody around, really, to go, come on now, you know.

00:24:45 Aleksandra King: So the fact– so you were with– so you were with a woman now, another woman. And you thought– like, did that not make you feel better, now that you can sort of be more yourself, be more– did this not feel like, I want– you want to stop the drugs completely?

00:24:59 Jane Couper: No, because that relationship wasn't very healthy. I don't– look, when you're not healthy and things aren't going well, you're not attracted to a healthy environment. So that relationship– she, you know, was with a guy, you know, hadn't come to terms with any feelings that she had towards me, so–

00:25:17 Aleksandra King: Okay. I think that's– that's not a relationship, isn't it, that we get into– really unhealthy.

00:25:23 Jane Couper: You just bounce from one unhealthy thing to another, don't you, when you're feeling that low about yourself. And so, yeah, things– things kind of got worse.

00:25:31 Aleksandra King: And you were noticing, now, I'm taking more drugs, I'm getting more out of control?

00:25:35 Jane Couper: Yeah. Yeah. I was, by this point, having– I'd been to the doctors for depression. You know, I'd recognised that it perhaps wasn't normal, how I felt about not wanting to get up in the morning, struggling just to get to work. I look back– I don't know how I kept a job, to be honest. I don't know why they kept me in a job. I don't think I was there very much. But I think I just got away with it, because I was always quite capable– you know, I was always quite academic.

00:26:05 Aleksandra King: So how many drugs and things were you doing at the stage, and alcohol? Was it just on– more party and night time?

00:26:12 Jane Couper: Probably from kind of Thursday through to Monday.

00:26:14 Aleksandra King: Which is most of your week, isn't it? Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday– look at that.

00:26:20 Jane Couper: It's a little bit like now, when people say they're going to eat healthy, and, you know, and then they get to Thursday and they're like, well, it's nearly weekend, isn't it, and I'll have a treat– and then that goes through to Monday, and I'm like, well, that's just your whole week, isn't it, Thursday to Monday.

00:26:31 Aleksandra King: Well, yeah– to recover, Monday. Yeah.

00:26:34 Jane Couper: It– I'd tried antidepressants, on and off– kind of half-hearted attempt. I'd been referred for counselling– I'd gone to a counsellor– didn't really engage with any counsellors. I didn't think very much of the first few that I met. But then I met this woman who was a clinical psychologist. They obviously– looking back, they obviously felt I needed deeper help, because it went from a counsellor, at some point, to a clinical psychologist and a psychiatrist. That was in the private, and I was very lucky, because I was working at Bupa, and Bupa in those days, as an employee, you had private cover. So I kind of got pushed into this world of psychiatrist and clinical psychologist, and I met the most wonderful psychologist, who I still have contact with to this day, and she absolutely helped in me taking a different path in this world. I don't know what would have happened had I not met her– and perhaps there'd have been another clinical psychologist come along, but she had a way with me that other people hadn't before. She managed to touch something.

00:27:39 Aleksandra King: So just in terms of timelines– so you've got– you got into this relationship, turbulent relationship, with this other woman. It's not working out, she's not quite there– it's actually destabilising you.

00:27:50 Jane Couper: Yes.

00:27:51 Aleksandra King: You're, you know, continuing with the drugs and alcohol, on, you know, for Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then sort of recovering and just about going to work. Do you then decide, I've got a problem? Do you then see the clinical psychologist– or what– what happens?

00:28:06 Jane Couper: That had already started, I think.

00:28:09 Aleksandra King: So you were already seeing–

00:28:11 Jane Couper: Yeah, clinical psychologist, yeah. And starting to go– and then–

00:28:13 Aleksandra King: I realised you went to the Priory.

00:28:15 Jane Couper: Yeah. I was weekly at these outpatient appointments with the clinical psychologist, and they kind of continued. But it got to a point where– yeah, I got to– I was around 25, it was 2005, and just– just didn't want to be here. I just didn't. I'd have to turn the lights off– if it was as easy as a light switch, I'd have– I'd have switched it off. But it's not as easy as a light switch, fortunately. Yeah– that year was tough.

00:28:48 Aleksandra King: Just– I can't even– like, how do you get to the point that you decide, I don't want to be here? Like, that's–

00:28:55 Jane Couper: Yeah. And I think what's most shocking for me now, looking back, is that I had a loving family. You know, I have a loving family. I have a mum– my dad, who's not with me now– but grandparents, aunties, uncles, you know, siblings as well.

00:29:09 Aleksandra King: Yeah. And friends. And– but you're alone, you know?

00:29:13 Jane Couper: Yeah. Very alone.

00:29:14 Aleksandra King: Very alone.

00:29:15 Jane Couper: And couldn't bear to tell them what was really going on.

00:29:19 Aleksandra King: So if you're not– you're not talking to them, because they, you know, they're further away– you're just– you're just not connecting with it. So the people you've got around you at this point– how are they impacting you?

00:29:31 Jane Couper: Well, by that point, the only people that I had around me, really, were people that were drinking and taking drugs, and were just coming along for the ride– you know, yourself with the people that are just in it for the, you know– I was probably quite entertaining in those days, when we went out.

00:29:46 Aleksandra King: You've got a front on you. You have a great– were you being yourself at this stage? Were you sort of– is it part, or you being genuine to yourself?

00:29:54 Jane Couper: No– uh, to an extent, yeah. You know, I had some great times as well. I had some– there were some of those friends that we had great nights out– we had great fun.

00:30:05 Aleksandra King: But did it extend into anything deeper, or more of a connection?

00:30:11 Jane Couper: Not really. I had a couple of friends that I'd met at Bupa, who did turn out to be the best of friends, and sat with me– you know, by the time I was in the Priory, came and sat while I rocked in a corner, you know– would sit quietly with me while I couldn't get out of a darkened room, and would just sit there. Even when I tried to push them away– because I did, you know, because I tried to push everybody away.

00:30:35 Aleksandra King: It's self-destruction, isn't it? You know, you're just on self-destruct– that includes drink, drugs, pushing people away, everything. Did the Priory help you to not want the drink and drugs anymore? Did it work, in that sense?

00:30:47 Jane Couper: Yeah, it did. It gave me a break from life, you know– from the pressure of trying to be something else, somebody else, from the pressure of everything– from relationships, from work, from– I don't know, just life. You're in a bubble, and you're with other people that are at least as poorly as you.

00:31:06 Aleksandra King: Yeah. So what year was– so you were in the Priory– when was that, what year?

00:31:09 Jane Couper: 2005– Christmas into the new year, over the Christmas period and into the new year.

00:31:16 Aleksandra King: Gosh. You know, I used to walk past the Priory sometimes. I lived in Southgate.

00:31:19 Jane Couper: Okay.

00:31:20 Aleksandra King: And I sometimes go past, and I said to– what's that?– and my husband– and he sort of explained it to me, and I was like, oh, okay. It just– it seemed like a very peaceful–

00:31:29 Jane Couper: Beautiful.

00:31:29 Aleksandra King: Peaceful, and, yeah– trees, and yeah.

00:31:32 Jane Couper: I mean, I was at one in the north, and same– beautiful old building, very peaceful. And I'd been there for sessions– a lot of sessions– by this point. You know, becoming an inpatient was almost just a next step, you know, from being an outpatient– [unclear: knew the?] surroundings, I accepted it. I even– I remember the woman on reception looking at me as if I was mad– which I kind of was– to be in the first place. I, you know, handed my car keys to her, and she was like, have you driven yourself here? And I was like, well, yeah– you know, I've agreed to be here, so, you know–

00:32:06 Aleksandra King: I suppose– I suppose it's disciplined of you, you know. Even though your life's pretty turbulent, there's a level of discipline that you're showing there. So you're getting the treatment, you're coming in, you're still seeing these– you've got these friends– you're sort of getting, yeah, tended to. What happens next?

00:32:24 Jane Couper: I had that few weeks at the Priory, and when I came out, it just felt like I'd had a real break, and that– I didn't think that life would perhaps change massively for me– that I was just a little bit stronger, to be able to cope with it. And, you know, I'd started to– I always did exercise and things, but I'd not done for a few years, and I was trying to do a little bit of exercise again. I was just trying a little bit harder– showers– just a few little things.

00:32:55 Aleksandra King: Okay– just trying a few little things.

00:32:57 Jane Couper: But life quickly turned for me then. I'd reached that point of being in the Priory over 2005 Christmas and New Year, and then my dad suddenly passed away, in March 2006, and that– that was it. That– that was the point.

00:33:13 Aleksandra King: Oh, gosh.

00:33:14 Jane Couper: Yeah.

00:33:15 Aleksandra King: So that threw you– threw the– the whole healing out the window, basically?

00:33:22 Jane Couper: That was it– um– yes and no. Everything just changed. You know– I mean, even today, I think there was life before my dad died, and there's life after. It's very different. I was a daddy's girl– I always was. You know, I adored him. He was my hero. I loved him unconditionally. We had a connection that anybody that knew us knew we just had this connection. And even when I was poorly, and even when– you know, my mum loves me unconditionally, and, you know, now, he's incredibly proud of me– with my dad, there was just something a little bit deeper. Like, I could look at him and I know what he was thinking, and he knew what I was thinking. I didn't have to say anything.

00:34:07 Aleksandra King: Daddy's– daddy's little girl. Yeah.

00:34:08 Jane Couper: Yeah. And when I was really– I got home one day from, I think, about a three-day bender, and he was sat on the doorstep with– it was a magic hat. When I was a little girl, I used to have nightmares, and my dad used to put this sun hat on me and tell me it was magic, and my nightmares used to go away. And I got home, and he was sat there, and he'd kept it.

00:34:31 Aleksandra King: Oh, that's so cute.

00:34:32 Jane Couper: And I don't know how long he'd been sat there. He just said, I just knew, you know– I needed to come.

00:34:37 Aleksandra King: Oh, God.

00:34:39 Jane Couper: Um–

00:34:40 Aleksandra King: Oh, God, that's lovely.

00:34:41 Jane Couper: So, you know, he– he never judged, my dad. He never– when I told him that I was gay, I might as well have just told him I'd spaghetti for tea. You know, he didn't– he didn't care. You know, he just– he was very forward-thinking, and he just– he just had no judgement of anybody. He was a very gentle character.

00:34:57 Aleksandra King: Well, he loved you, so that's it– there's no– there's no other anything else. So– but that must have been damn awful.

00:35:06 Jane Couper: Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:07 Aleksandra King: The one– that's a knife in the heart. Yeah.

00:35:09 Jane Couper: Not the one– because I– I did have other family that desperately tried to be there for– for me. I didn't let them. You know, I– I didn't let my mum, I didn't let my auntie, who I'm very close to– there were– there were lots of– lots of people. I didn't let anybody else. Whereas my dad never tried– he just kind of pottered around, and was just there, gently, you know. And then, all of a sudden, he– he wasn't. And, yeah– it wasn't that my healing stopped. It was almost like my healing started– which I know sounds odd.

00:35:41 Aleksandra King: Okay– what happened then?

00:35:43 Jane Couper: Well, look– we all have different beliefs, don't we, about the world that we live in, and about spiritual beliefs and things like that. And maybe I was already open, to some extent, around spiritual beliefs. But I believe that my dad came to see me that night– which may sound crazy to a lot of people. I don't think it really matters– it helped me. And I just felt something different. I think one was that I couldn't let my dad see me doing those things anymore. All of a sudden, I had this belief that he could still see me– I just couldn't see him.

00:36:20 Aleksandra King: Which– which thing– so what's the worst thing that you didn't want your dad to see about you?

00:36:26 Jane Couper: Well, I didn't want him to see me drinking and taking drugs. I didn't want him to see me– it really hurt my dad when I was hurting. You know that E.T. film, when– when the boy's hurting, and E.T. hurt? That's the closest I can describe it. And it is for anybody– we all understand– that's why the film was so successful, we all understand that bond. It's like now, with my children– if they hurt, I hurt ten times as much. You know, and my dad– I could see the pain on his face, even when he pretended to be okay. The day that I went– that I went and told him that I was going to go into the Priory for a few weeks, to take a break– I'll never forget the look on his face. And it wasn't disappointment– it wasn't– it was just– it was just sadness.

00:37:13 Aleksandra King: So at this point, with your dad passing– had you, in terms of your experience, and your– the drugs, and– and you said you didn't want to be here– had you, by this point, reached what you would consider your sort of rock bottom, you know, in life?

00:37:33 Jane Couper: Yes. Yeah, I had, by that point. I think, on paper, they were classed as three– I don't like to say suicide attempts– I think that's what– what doctors, or the Priory, would have kind of referred to them as. I'm not sure it's that easy to label these things. But there were three events where I'd, you know, really put myself in harm's way, and– and not wanted to be here, by the time I went into the Priory– which is why I agreed to it, because I knew each time it was going to get worse. So, yeah– I'd reached that point, and I just couldn't bear my dad seeing that, or that look on his face to be the one that I was–

00:38:10 Aleksandra King: Did he know about these three attempts? Well, you– did he–

00:38:13 Jane Couper: He didn't. No. None of my family do. I've never spoken to them about it, to this day.

00:38:18 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:38:18 Jane Couper: I shan't be posting this podcast anywhere where family members will see, because I think it's too painful for them. I don't think they need to– I don't think there's any value in– in them knowing those things now. They– they loved me. I just didn't let them, at– by– by that time.

00:38:35 Aleksandra King: And your dad– your dad didn't know that? Sorry, just–

00:38:38 Jane Couper: No. No. I– I think he just knew, from the connection that we had, how much pain I was in, and that hurt him.

00:38:46 Aleksandra King: But you knew, obviously, and the Priory knew.

00:38:48 Jane Couper: Yes.

00:38:49 Aleksandra King: And we won't go into that– I can tell you'd rather not. So– but all of that is in your mind, and you're thinking, I just don't want to disappoint him. Is that what you're– yeah– thinking?

00:39:01 Jane Couper: I couldn't bear– yeah– that– that look that he had on his face when I told him I was going in– that look of sadness. Whenever I thought about doing something that potentially could lead to self-harm, I just saw that look, and I thought, I can't– I can't bear that. I can't– I can't do that. And all he would want, and all I can do for him now, is get better. It's all I can do. He was so– you know, he used to say I could do anything.

00:39:30 Aleksandra King: And, you know, that's– it's– it's incredible, because it's like– he's looking out for you still, isn't he? And in his– in his death, he's become like your guardian angel, and he's your motivation now to steer you away from all that– that world, that– that stuff, you know.

00:39:47 Jane Couper: Yeah. And even now, you know– if I deal with some– we still deal with this all the time, don't we? You know, life carries on, and even though life might look, on the surface, like it's all wonderful now, I still deal with stuff, you know– we all do. And I still have little things that my dad would have said to me, that I go, oh, that's what he meant, you know. So when we're parenting– and I now parent my children– I think– I hope that they're– they remember some things– that, even though, like, I might have said something to my son yesterday, who's nine, and it went over his head, and he just asked me what was fatigue– maybe at some point further down the line, he'll go, ah, that's what Mum meant, you know– and maybe then that'll help. And, you know, I've had– you know, my mum's great, and– and I've got other people in my life that have– have helped since then. But yeah, that– that was a real, real turning point. And I think a lot of people around me at that point thought that that would be the end. You know, anybody that had seen how low I'd got, knew that I'd been an inpatient in the Priory– you know, drugged up in a different way by that point– I was on all sorts of antidepressants– diazepam, you know, zopiclone– anything that– that would help. There was a real concern here that this would be it for me, I think. And actually, from that point on, I never considered not being here again.

00:41:04 Aleksandra King: Oh.

00:41:06 Jane Couper: I just had my mind set on getting better. And I think what's– because I– because I get asked so many times when I speak at school– what was it, how– how did you get better? You know, what– what did it? And what was your rock bottom, what was your turning point? And I think I don't always like sharing that that was it, because I think you don't have to lose somebody that close to you to have a turning point. Because that's really demotivating for people, isn't it, that are listening, and think it just needs to be– I think it's just about finding something that's worth living for. Something inside– there's a little voice somewhere inside that goes, actually, it's worth just trying it out, isn't it?

00:41:48 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Because, I suppose– get better– the thing that was, I suppose, the issue, was that you didn't feel there was something to live for, and you didn't want to respect your body, and you didn't like yourself– I think, if– if I may say that. And then you sort of think, well, someone loved me, yeah? You know, and– and I was good enough for them. But you kind of had to lose them to realise that.

00:42:10 Jane Couper: Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't it have been great if I could have realised– all– I lost it– but–

00:42:15 Aleksandra King: You had to sort of go through that journey. So we spoke about, you know, what happened, and you– you sort of– the– the rock, you know, the rock bottom– which we don't– we don't want to talk about, but it is what it is– and then your dad passes. So let's talk about the rebuilding, because you've got to now rebuild this broken soul. You know, you've got to piece yourself back together. So what do you do– what do you do to piece yourself back together?

00:42:41 Jane Couper: It was quite a big thing for me to go and speak to some of those friends that had been such good friends, you know, when I was 18, 19, 20– the couple of friends that I'd made at Bupa. You know, I sat down with them, and one of them said to me, you used to play football, didn't you? And I was like, yeah– I loved football. I'd have played it all day, every day, if society allowed. Yeah– I loved it. Well, why don't you go and join football? You'll– you know, you'll find some people that aren't just trying to push drugs on you, you know–

00:43:10 Aleksandra King: Which is what– current friend crowd, yeah. Yeah.

00:43:14 Jane Couper: Finding friends, I think, is what she was saying. Yeah– and I did. I joined a football club, and started playing football again, and met my wife, who I'm married to today, and a group of friends who are a great group of friends. And, I mean, look– it was girls' football, and we went out a lot, and we drank– but it was good, wholesome, normal levels.

00:43:37 Aleksandra King: Weekend– yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a difference– there's a big difference. Yeah.

00:43:41 Jane Couper: And I– I left Bupa, because I couldn't bear the– the kind of shadows that– that remained from there. Which was a shame, because it was a fabulous company to work for, and I'd enjoyed working– I'd met–

00:43:53 Aleksandra King: You had to shed that skin.

00:43:54 Jane Couper: I did. I did. And I couldn't walk in to the reception area where my mum had told me that my dad had passed. Every morning, I walked in and relived it. So I left. I got bounced around a couple of jobs, because I struggled– I was still struggling. It wasn't overnight– it took years.

00:44:09 Aleksandra King: Yeah– it took years.

00:44:11 Jane Couper: You know, I was on such a high dose of antidepressants and sleeping tablets, you know– to– to reduce those gradually took years. But I knew, somewhere inside of me, that I wanted to do it. I knew that I was capable of doing something. And I have quite a strong– and I think I've always had– because I've thought about this– is it since I had all those difficulties, or did I feel it even before that– I have a strong sense of service, of wanting to do good, of wanting to make lives better. I know that sounds a bit clichéd, but, you know, to help make life better for others.

00:44:47 Aleksandra King: Because– because you've suffered yourself– some joy and some goodness, and make the world a better place, because there's so much crap, isn't there? It's like an emotional shift, a mind– you know, a shaking up, to sort of wake up– you know, this is what you're doing is wrong. And then you were aware enough of yourself to implement changes– it just made your life a little bit easier along the way. Like, okay, that's a bit stressful for me– seeing this thing is a bit stressful, I'm just going to avoid that thing, because it's a bit toxic. And then you gently, gently move that aside, and then, let me just find an easier– and you've– you've got to do that, don't you? Like, you can't deal with everything at the same time. You have to make life easier for yourself. And then you found something you enjoyed, which is like, oh, I like football– yeah, boom. Yeah– that's like– yeah, you connect to your old self. These are the things that people can do– like, what do you like?

00:45:35 Jane Couper: Yeah.

00:45:35 Aleksandra King: What makes you happy? What's a little bit toxic? Who's toxic in your life? Yeah– cut them out, like, literally.

00:45:41 Jane Couper: Yeah, absolutely. And that, you know, that's– that's– you have to. You have to– whether it's on social media, or whether it's just in life, in day-to-day stuff– if they're not lifting you up, yeah– if they don't energise you, or they don't lift you up, or they don't make you feel good– I mean, everybody has the odd day, you know, where they have an argument or whatever– that's different.

00:46:00 Aleksandra King: That's different. It's toxic– toxins, you know– toxic people, but also toxins, like you say, in that environment– yeah, that reception room, or that particular whatever road, or, yeah, vibe– you've got to– it– cut it out. It's like a cancer– you've got to get rid of it.

00:46:17 Jane Couper: Yeah. And it's just making healthy choices, isn't it, day-to-day. But it– it didn't– it didn't come easy. It took a long time.

00:46:23 Aleksandra King: Yeah. But, yeah, you've done extremely well, because you've had to pull yourself– yank yourself– out of something awful, you know? Like sinking sand, and you had to sort of– drowning, and you have to– yeah– and stay– stay here, you know? So that– that's another thing, because you've got to continue– you've got to just be strong and– and pioneer forward. But I suppose, for anyone listening, what have you learned about addiction and recovery that other people might not understand?

00:46:54 Jane Couper: You know, I– I'm not– I don't think I'm the best person to talk about addiction, because I look back and I think, I took drugs to escape. Was I an addict? I don't think so. I don't think– you know, I think addicts need a different path, and I met addicts along the way, and– the support– the similarities– but there's also big differences. You know, I used alcohol and drugs to escape– and to escape what I was dealing with– and therefore I needed to sort those things out, and I needed to, you know, look at what it was that was making me feel that way about myself, and correct them– and correct the internal message, and be kind to myself, and– and all those things. And naturally, I– I didn't have a point where I said, I'm not drinking from tomorrow, I'm not taking another drink from tomorrow– no. It just gradually became less and less, because the more I was kind to myself, the more I gave myself credit for the things that I did do to help other people, and that– that I did– you know, perhaps I wasn't all bad. You know, perhaps there was a nice little part of me that could come out. And– that, I think– that's different. You know, gradually, I didn't want to drink anymore, and I didn't– I didn't need to. I didn't need to take drugs, I didn't need to drink, and– and life just gradually changed. And, you know, what are we– 20 years on– and it's still evolving. I'm still learning how to be kinder to myself.

00:48:16 Aleksandra King: So for someone, then, in that case, who's trying to escape, you know, and they're drinking to escape, or, you know, whatever– taking drugs to escape– what advice do you have to them, based on what you've gone through?

00:48:28 Jane Couper: Other ways to escape, you know– that's not escaping. Those things is just running towards more darkness, you know– it only leads towards that. And it's so temporary, you know– your fix lasts a couple of hours, if that, and you're the one that's still running around at 7:00 in the morning trying to get everybody to continue the night out, and most normal people have, you know, gone and got on with their lives. And it's a lonely, lonely world, you know. The real escape is to find healthy communities and activities to get involved in, where everybody else is battling something– everybody's struggling. You know, for me it was football, but I'm now in other communities, you know– running communities– and I like to try any activity possible. I went open water swimming this year, and there's a whole community of people there to access. It's so good, you know.

00:49:15 Aleksandra King: Thrilling, yeah. And those– I think there's so much more now, isn't there? You can listen to loads of podcasts, and there's loads of things around nutrition and activities and communities that you can access. Do you know what– I met this woman– I'm not going to give away personal details, but I met this woman about two years ago or something, and she was quite into all this sort of stuff, you know, and– heavy drinker, and we know for sure she was doing drugs and things. But she got– she started to, you know, speak to me and whatever, and we're talking– what– talking, and then she's like, well, what's your vice? Come on, what do you do? What do you do? You must do something– come on. And she was really believing, you know– I was like, what do you– what do you mean? It wasn't– but she was like– what– basically, I assume the question is, what do you do to get this thrill, kick– what is it, what drugs of choice or something, you know? And I was, like, thinking about– genuinely, the answer to that is, I love competition and exercise– and yes, especially the competitive thing– I find it thrilling. Even if I'm on my own, I'm competing with myself on that run– walk– that's thrilling.

00:50:23 Jane Couper: Yeah, absolutely. And finding that sense of purpose– I think when you find a sense of purpose– and I have a few, you know. I have a sense of purpose around my work and my business, and that's a very purpose-driven business, and that, you know, has given me so much. My strongest sense of purpose is being a mum.

00:50:42 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:50:42 Jane Couper: You know, for sure. You know, over– I would give everything else up to be the best mum I could be to my two children. But I think that me balancing things like work, and showing them that it's healthy to exercise and all those things, is important. So there's that, and then the sense of purpose around health and wellbeing. I mean, what have we got if we haven't got our wellbeing, you know? You only have to be someone that goes through a health scare to realise that–

00:51:06 Aleksandra King: Oh God– that, you know– that– I think a lot of people listening are going through their health scares right now. I mean, everyone's getting–

00:51:13 Jane Couper: Nothing else matters at that point, does it? You can get another job–

00:51:15 Aleksandra King: So scary.

00:51:16 Jane Couper: You know, you can– you can– you have to have breaks from exercise and all these other things, but you can go back to it, you know. But your health– and so the last few years for me is– time has allowed– being a mum– it's not easy when they're little ones, is it? But as they're getting a bit older and I've got a bit more time for me– is around nutrition, sleep, you know, and doing the things that just keep me well, and hopefully healthy for as long as I can be.

00:51:42 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I used to not be that bothered with health till I became a mum, and then it's like– you worry about– if you're not there for them–

00:51:48 Jane Couper: Absolutely. It's all about– absolutely. You know, I was 26– which, for some people– when my dad died, I was 26, and some people have lost parents much younger than that, you know. I was an adult to most people, but actually I was too young, you know. That felt young, and looking back, it feels young. I don't want to be– I don't want my children to be only 26– I want them to be, yeah, well into being a parent themselves, an adult, and all these things.

00:52:15 Aleksandra King: So what is your– I mean, we touched on the career in the beginning, but what does– what does your career look like now, and what drives you?

00:52:23 Jane Couper: Well, I fell into recruitment, as most people do. Anybody that works in recruitment, if you ask them how they got into it, they'll say they fell into recruitment. Because it was health– healthcare– I'd enjoyed working at Bupa– there was always that healthcare side to it. Fell into the world of nursing agencies, which gets quite a lot of bad press, because obviously the NHS spends quite a bit of money on nursing agencies. But I got to a point where I realised that actually I could drive this purpose-driven business, where we decrease the amount that the NHS is having to spend on agency, by building the technology– which we've done– to automate, integrate transactions that mean the cost can come down a lot for the NHS.

00:53:11 Aleksandra King: The costs have got to come down.

00:53:13 Jane Couper: Yeah, absolutely.

00:53:14 Aleksandra King: And so it's– [unclear: a range?]– and the quality up–

00:53:16 Jane Couper: Absolutely– the quality. I mean, the nurses and the healthcare professionals that we have– they're just– they're the people that you should have on this podcast. They are the most incredible people, and they've been through so much with the pandemic. They always put everybody else first– they're just incredible. And I have this privileged job of getting to work with them, and being a part of this– this long-term, sustainable workforce plan that– that we have in place now for the NHS.

00:53:40 Aleksandra King: So what's your– your goal, your ideal, career-wise?

00:53:47 Jane Couper: I would like the business– for Novella– to have really changed that landscape for agencies, to have to work in a more innovative way to bring the cost down for the NHS. The NHS needs a flexible workforce– it can't come away from it, you know– it needs it. But to– to really inspire other agencies to– to drive that cost down and form part of this workforce plan. But in addition to that, I'm just in the beginning of conversations around setting up a charity, with a couple of wonderful people that are on board and going to help. Because one thing that we do really well is we connect people with organisations, and there are so many organisations out there in the world that need healthcare professionals, and we have this app that connects all these people together. And we can use the app to connect the thousands of healthcare professionals that we have on our books to charities across the world, that access communities that perhaps have no access to healthcare, you know. These are communities that don't have clinics or hospitals, and– and they need healthcare professionals as volunteers to go and help them set the services up, and– and leave them more self-sustaining. That would be a wonderful thing to do. That would be the goal.

00:55:00 Aleksandra King: Yeah. So do you regret your– your past– let's say the– the darker side of what you've had to go through– or would you do it all again?

00:55:12 Jane Couper: No. I mean, it would have been nice if I'd not had to go through those things– or some of those things– to get to where I am. And there are some actions that I took in my darkest moments that hurt other people, that I would not do again. But I don't think you can have regrets, because it doesn't serve a purpose. Anyway, I've met some incredible people. It's given me resilience, determination, and it's given me skills that I hope to share with other people– and, you know, maybe even just help one younger person– younger me– get through this life without quite as much of the darkness in it. Then– no– no regrets.

00:55:54 Aleksandra King: It's all good– no regrets– you're here. Jane, thank you for coming on our podcast.

00:56:00 Jane Couper: You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.