The Mindset That Turns Trauma Into Power | Dr Mohammad Al-Ubaydli

Episode

00:00:01 Aleksandra King: Mohammad, thank you so much for coming on the Beyond the Boardroom podcast. You are the CEO and founder of one of the world's largest personal health records companies. You graduated from Cambridge with a first-class degree. You're also a programmer– which is crazy that you've got all of that– and you've written a lot of books.

00:00:21 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes.

00:00:22 Aleksandra King: Just– we'll leave it at that for now.

00:00:23 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes.

00:00:24 Aleksandra King: That's why I'm happy to have you on. I want to hear from you what it took to achieve the success that you have, and then I also want to pick your brain a bit about the– the NHS, and how we can all improve our health by taking control of it. So there's so much– so many interesting things we can learn from you. So I'll start with my first and favourite question– how are you? [laughter]

00:00:47 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I'm very good, thank you. I've been looking forward to the conversation.

00:00:50 Aleksandra King: I know you had an incident this morning, didn't– [laughter] you– you had an incident.

00:00:54 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah.

00:00:55 Aleksandra King: So what happened?

00:00:56 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I had a food-related shirt accident just before your podcast– just minutes– literally 10 minutes ago. I was sending you selfies saying, do you think this will appear on the camera?

00:01:07 Aleksandra King: But camera picks things up, though. I have no doubt your shirt's perfect now.

00:01:12 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Thank you for the assistance with the replacement shirt.

00:01:15 Aleksandra King: So tell us a little bit about where you grew up.

00:01:17 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I was born in the Arab world. I grew up in Yemen. I think the earliest thing that I'm aware of that happened to me is I was bitten by a scorpion as we were sleeping on the floor– and so we then had to get a bed after that. But my– my memory of Yemen is very happy. I had a little baby goat that would follow me around everywhere. I was surrounded by people, in a school that my parents were teaching in, who were friendly and protective and so on. So now– now I have children of my own, and I'm aware of how terrifying everything that happens to your child is. I– I don't know how we got through that difficult environment– for my parents.

00:01:56 Aleksandra King: Okay, so– just– so where were you born?

00:01:58 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I was born in Bahrain.

00:01:59 Aleksandra King: You're born in Bahrain.

00:02:00 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah. And then shortly after that– I went– my parents went to Yemen, because my parents had set up a school by the border of Oman that was teaching the children of people who were rebelling against the government in Oman.

00:02:16 Aleksandra King: Oh.

00:02:17 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Which was a very isolated area. So my mum used to tell me she would walk for an hour to get to a bus, that would take an hour to get to a city, that had a Coke bottle– that was one– one treat a week kind of thing. It was a very isolated place. The community that they built and took part in was a very idealistic one.

00:02:38 Aleksandra King: Okay, okay– so what was taught in these schools, and what was–

00:02:43 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So many of the people around that area thought that what should have been done is, you teach the children to [unclear: read?] and then get them back– their families need them for the war that's happening.

00:02:55 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:02:55 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And my parents– I mean, my father in particular– would say, look, one day there will be peace, and with peace you need education– so these children can't leave until they've got their O-levels.

00:03:06 Aleksandra King: This is old GCSEs.

00:03:08 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes. And one day there was peace, and as the new Sultan– the new ruler– took over in Oman, he needed to rebuild the country– and for that you need a bureaucracy, and for a bureaucracy you need people with university degrees. And who can you send for a university degree? The people who had O-levels.

00:03:28 Aleksandra King: Who had O-levels– the children that had been taught in that school. Wow.

00:03:31 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So there's a layer– a thin layer of that bureaucracy from the '70s– that were all children in that school, who then became the university graduates who helped build the country. So it's– it's idealistic, and long-term, and its time horizon around what you should do in investing in people– that's how my parents brought me up, basically.

00:03:56 Aleksandra King: Okay. But your family was exiled from Bahrain in the 1970s– what happened?

00:04:01 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So because they were teaching the children of the rebels against one royal family, the other royal family– of Bahrain– didn't like them, so they were exiled from Bahrain for that.

00:04:11 Aleksandra King: So what happened– what actually–

00:04:13 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So we went from Yemen to Syria to Lebanon– during the civil war.

00:04:19 Aleksandra King: You were travelling around and trying to find a place to–

00:04:22 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Well, mostly following my father's education. So my father did a degree in Syria, and then a master's in [unclear: Baghdad?], and ended up doing a PhD in the UK, in Cambridge.

00:04:32 Aleksandra King: But these were difficult countries to live in.

00:04:35 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes– yeah– but again, my memory is happy.

00:04:38 Aleksandra King: So difficult for your parents, but not for you when you were–

00:04:41 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Honestly– so now I have children of my own– I have no idea how my parents managed to do it. But they did it in a way that me– and then my brother, as he came– we– we felt secure and safe, even in very dangerous environments. In Lebanon– I remember once there was bombing, and then we came back the next day from the shelter– the building across from us had been completely flattened. You– you'd walk to school, but some days you can't get back home because there's another air raid– and the school– everyone stays in the school, and the parents stay in their buildings, and so on. But my– my parents managed to shield me from that.

00:05:17 Aleksandra King: Yeah, but you saw things still– still witnessed things that you couldn't not witness, because they were there– it's a war zone. But the worst, from a child perspective– the thing that you brought up first was a scorpion– I don't blame you– that's– that's intense. Yes– so where did it bite you?

00:05:33 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: It's at my foot, apparently.

00:05:34 Aleksandra King: Oh– your parents must have been– again– going out of their mind there. So you generally had a nice childhood, and they– they managed to shield you from that. Looking– looking at growing up in– under these circumstances, in war-torn regions, and then transitioning to the UK– what impact do you think that had on you? That's not an everyday occurrence for most people– you're going to a completely different environment– so how was that?

00:06:05 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So you learn something when you have to exist in different cultures, in different countries. One is that you learn that most people's habits are random and arbitrary. I come to England, for example– first day in the canteen in the school– they have gravy.

00:06:21 Aleksandra King: So what age are you now– 10– 8? So you come to the UK– you're 10 years old.

00:06:25 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah.

00:06:25 Aleksandra King: You haven't seen anything like this?

00:06:27 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Really– I've never seen gravy before in my life. So you're looking at this and thinking– so they put gravy– it's a liquid– I pick up the spoon, I drink it– and the kids are laughing at me, which is fine. But the thing I didn't understand is– I said, how do you do it? And they showed me– and they used a fork, and the liquid was falling– so I'm just– makes no sense to me.

00:06:46 Aleksandra King: No– nothing–

00:06:48 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Every country has these things. But then, on the flip side, every country has some excellent things– and if you can pick them up, if you can accumulate them, that's very useful. My teacher in the school– I spoke very little English, and I– I asked her, how do you spell this word?

00:07:05 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:07:05 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And she says, here's the dictionary. And a dictionary is what you use when you know the spelling of the word but not the meaning. I know the meaning– I don't know the spelling– why are you giving me a dictionary?

00:07:16 Aleksandra King: Yeah– and in fact, Arab schools– the teacher would have immediately told you.

00:07:21 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes. And for a teacher to not tell you– you think the teacher is lazy.

00:07:24 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:07:26 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: However, what the English system is all about is teaching you independence. So what the teacher– I eventually understood– was, how many ways could it be spelled? 10, 15? Doesn't take that long to go through all of them, and eventually you'll find the right spelling by trying them on the dictionary– and now you know how to check the spelling without waiting for– for another person to teach you. So she taught me how to teach myself.

00:07:49 Aleksandra King: I think you took the positive out of that lesson, because I think she was slightly rude, to me, I must tell you.

00:07:55 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I– I'm positive now– I was very bitter during the first few years. I don't like– yeah– I don't like– but the English system is very much about independence, and sometimes it comes across as sink or swim. [clears throat] That is– if you look at Arab countries, or Asian educational systems in general, they're very much about rote learning.

00:08:11 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:08:11 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: They're going to give you the answer, and you're going to learn the answer– whereas English systems are about getting you to think through the answer.

00:08:19 Aleksandra King: It's very interesting– the– something I noticed is that my parents, who came from a Polish background– Polish education– in Poland, kids in those days didn't really get anything– there was no concept of homework or anything like that. You got– yeah– you got taught at school, and then you went home and you relaxed– the academics were dealt with by the teachers, hands-on, in school. And– and today, the education system in Poland– it's absolutely brilliant– it's top– it's really good– 100% literacy in the country, very academically minded country. But in South Africa we had more of the English system, where the kids were expected to– like you're saying– sink or swim. If you had parents– you needed that support– the parents– especially if you're very small, young, or maybe a bit– one of those kids that doesn't really want to sit down and study– you did need a parent to watch you. And the kids that had that would do better, and then the kids whose parents were, like, a bit hands-off– because they expect– the schools– were a bit left, and started having gaps and things– which is what happened in our–

00:09:21 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And it builds up, you know.

00:09:22 Aleksandra King: Yeah– because it's not like that– and I see that even now, with my kids having gone through the English education system– how much they needed me to just make sure that the academics are tick, tick, tick– and I think it is a bit sink or swim.

00:09:35 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah– yes.

00:09:36 Aleksandra King: But then again, we've got the best universities in the world– you've been to one of them– and those are brilliant, and the minds are stretched. But I think at that stage you're not dealing with that any more– you're just dealing with– yeah– the best of the best, that kind of–

00:09:48 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So again, it's about– each of those systems– Arab, Polish, English– has advantages and disadvantages– and as you live in different countries, you learn to identify them and evaluate them objectively– not because you grew up there and therefore it must be the correct way, but because as an outsider you're checking everything. And then– are you open to picking up the good things–

00:10:09 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:10:10 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Rather than rejecting them for being different?

00:10:12 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:10:12 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So if you can get rid of the weight of local habits, and pick up– accumulate– the good local habits, it's very powerful.

00:10:19 Aleksandra King: I love that you say to be open to it– because I know I would say that– travel– I consider travel, and going out there in the world, and going to as many countries as you can– and some– literally living the life– go and work in a country, don't just go on holiday– literally work there, live there– it doesn't matter– like, remote– and you suddenly start seeing things from a different angle. It's not all UK-centric, or Polish– it's less good from this point of view– look at football teams– that these guys sport– look how they dress, look how they speak– and it becomes less scary as well, that people are different. They look different to you, but it's all people laughing at the same silly thing, getting really hungry, wanting– you all have to work, you're all in depression– and you suddenly– the world– it just becomes easier. But then you've got people that maybe they haven't travelled– I had someone in the family who hadn't travelled, but he was so open, and researching and reading on different cultures, and really, like, intellectually wanting to understand– and even learning other languages, as many as you could– and just– yeah–

00:11:16 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: It's the openness that matters.

00:11:17 Aleksandra King: It's the openness, right?

00:11:19 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes– you can do it in different ways. But yeah– if you're not open, then the world becomes scary, and then you become defensive.

00:11:25 Aleksandra King: It's true, isn't it? Yes– so true. Values– like family values, and how you brought up– you obviously– different influences, and that's fine– but, like, what your parents tell you at home– that really matters. And what sort of– what were the main values that your parents–

00:11:43 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: The main things were– and with the background– that at various points in my life there was sudden movement– so change– the move from Syria to Lebanon was very sudden, from Lebanon to Cambridge was very sudden, from Cambridge to Cyprus was very sudden, and so on. And therefore– but it's okay if you are close with your family and you have an education. If you have those two things in place, it doesn't matter where you are– it's going to be okay. It may not be fabulous, but it's going to be okay.

00:12:16 Aleksandra King: What about your friends? That's very frequent changes in friends.

00:12:20 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And unlike my brother, for example– I'm not very good at making friends. So he was excellent at picking up friends. It takes me three years to make friends.

00:12:28 Aleksandra King: Three years?

00:12:28 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And that takes me– my parents– three years to change country. So it was difficult for me.

00:12:33 Aleksandra King: Wow.

00:12:34 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: But– but the family was a constant, and was very close. And wherever we turned up, if I could pay attention to my education, things worked out.

00:12:45 Aleksandra King: And– you were very studious, and it was something that was important to you.

00:12:48 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I– I liked learning. I was– I was probably a bad student for most of my life– and yeah, I'd fail exams and so on.

00:12:55 Aleksandra King: Really?

00:12:56 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes. But mostly because I would like learning the topic, not the test– and as the teacher would focus on, you have to learn these three things, I would be distracted by a whole bunch of other things. But you learn the habits of studying for the exam along– but the enjoyment of learning– that was a constant. I was always reading, I was always–

00:13:17 Aleksandra King: It is something I pick up from you– you ask a lot of questions– more than most people. It's the first thing I noticed about you– like, firing questions at me– I'm like, hang on a minute, hang on a minute– I'm interviewing [laughter] you. No– I find– no, but it's nice– but you're inquisitive.

00:13:29 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I find everybody has a story, and it's really interesting. I'll tell you this story– Buzz Ald– Neil Armstrong– sorry– the astronaut. Before– two years before he died, he gave a lecture for the Australian association of accountants– he gave the keynote lecture. And everyone was asking the guy, how did you get Neil Armstrong to come to Australia? Apart from coming to Australia– Neil Armstrong is very modest– he doesn't give lectures. So he gave a little bit of speaking tour after the moon, as a duty to NASA– but he's a very private man. And he said, I found out that Neil Armstrong's father was an accountant– and I said to him, will you help inspire the next generation of accountants? And of course he flew, right? So everybody has a story– and if you understand that, you can cooperate with people. But I enjoy telling people's stories.

00:14:20 Aleksandra King: That's a lovely story. As I said, it wasn't easy for you– and you've been telling us about, obviously, all the war-torn countries, and the movement– and as a kid, and the– the difficulty– obviously that affected making these friends– you always have to leave–

00:14:32 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: You always have to leave them.

00:14:33 Aleksandra King: So why put, you know, the effort– and then– and then you also had a rare immune disorder. Can you tell us about that?

00:14:42 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: My immune system is weak– I don't make antibodies in response to– I make the normal antibodies that everyone has, but normally the immune system, when it finds something dangerous– like an infection or a cancer– it then makes an antibody specific to that thing.

00:14:58 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:14:58 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I can't make that specific–

00:15:00 Aleksandra King: You can't make extra ones.

00:15:01 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Correct. So in Yemen, the vaccines wouldn't work–

00:15:05 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:15:05 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And sometimes the vaccine would give me the infection that was in the vaccine.

00:15:08 Aleksandra King: Oh– so if it was a live vaccine, for–

00:15:10 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: If it was a live vac– Growing up in, you know, a very poor area– again, I don't know how my mother kept me alive– but she noticed it early on, and she began boiling water before she gives it to me to drink, to sterilise it. And everyone around her said– the Yemenis, they are tough people– so they said, you're spoiling him, you're making him weak, and so on– they said, give him the germs, they're good for him. But she said, no– there's something different about my son, and he needs protection. And so that– that's why, by the time I got to Cambridge– to the UK– at age 10, many other children would have been in much worse condition, even if they'd been in better countries than Yemen, Syria, Lebanon. But she managed to maintain my health. [clears throat] She was very educated– she kept a very good eye on me, and looked after me. Until I was 12– in those two years, I remember my mother constantly arguing with doctors, saying, what you're saying does not match what he has.

00:16:11 Aleksandra King: I've seen her– intuition–

00:16:13 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: No– she brought data to the conversation.

00:16:15 Aleksandra King: She brought the receipts.

00:16:16 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Right– so, what you're saying doesn't match what happened this day, that day, the other day– so your diagnosis is wrong. And I'm dying of embarrassment–

00:16:26 Aleksandra King: 'Cause you think your mum's being too– why are you embarrassed?

00:16:29 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Just– my– my mother is a very strong personality, and she's telling off the doctor for being wrong– and I'm new in the country, and I'm just trying to keep a low profile as a teenager.

00:16:38 Aleksandra King: Right– yes– shush, Mum.

00:16:40 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah.

00:16:41 Aleksandra King: But she was right.

00:16:41 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: But she had the facts.

00:16:43 Aleksandra King: She had the facts.

00:16:43 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And she'd done the work. And eventually we got to see a super-specialist in Great Ormond Street Hospital in London. And apparently, the year that he saw me, it was only one year after the illness had been diagnosed in the first place– the Swedish registry had identified it, because it was so rare. And so a year afterwards, a specialist in London sees me and says, Mohammad has this– and we think it can be fixed by giving him antibodies from blood donations. And that changes my trajectory in my health.

00:17:15 Aleksandra King: That's crazy. That is crazy. So when you had a live vaccine that you shouldn't have had– was that one of the points in her data points, saying, we gave him– I don't know– what would you have– TB or something like that– did you–

00:17:29 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I forget the one that she had– but she didn't– she had all the– she had all those–

00:17:33 Aleksandra King: Yeah– because you would have had a lot of– you had to go through the whole programme, didn't you– measles and all– I don't know– is measles live vaccine? I don't– [laughter]

00:17:41 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Again– in those stage– I don't know what it was– yeah, I don't know what it was. But– and again, remember– she's collecting them across these different ages–

00:17:47 Aleksandra King: They're different healthcare systems– and sometimes that's even more difficult.

00:17:51 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah– that's even more difficult. But she kept all that information, and she brought that– and she's constantly reading, and she brings that to the conversations.

00:17:58 Aleksandra King: You actually need to– yeah– be careful when you're hopping countries, because one programme is totally different to another. I actually missed out on a measles vaccination, and then I had to have one later, in adulthood– and the only reason why they found out that I had missed out on it is because I took my daughter to A&E for some– she was a little baby– and then there– there was someone with measles there. So they said, oh, sorry– were– were you vaccinated? I phoned my mum– I go, Mum, was I vaccinated? She goes– [laughter] I don't know. I was like, great– thanks. And then they did a test– and then– yeah– no, I'm glad they checked. But yes– so yeah, that was thorough, actually– it was a good moment, 'cause that could have been–

00:18:34 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And a lot of people find that at scale during lockdown, with COVID– when they'd get one dose in one country and another one in the other country– the system fails across the borders.

00:18:45 Aleksandra King: Yes– and then stuck in the admin, as well as the safety of it.

00:18:48 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So it's very difficult– it's a horrible place to be stuck.

00:18:50 Aleksandra King: Yeah– oh, that's really scary. You love your academics– that's your grounding– one of your grounding values– besides, obviously, family first. And you study computing, and you study medicine– it's like two different– they share some parts of brain, but it's like– it is two different parts of your brain– like, your brain must be very well exercised, with the blood flow very healthy in the different regions.

00:19:14 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I– sorry, go ahead.

00:19:17 Aleksandra King: No, I was saying– it's just different– you don't get someone, really, that's done those two–

00:19:21 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: When I–

00:19:21 Aleksandra King: It's not a common thing.

00:19:22 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: –did my A-levels, I read a book called Chaos– which is not about the NHS– it's about a new science of chaos. Chaos science– chaotic systems are things like the weather– unpredictable. And they're unpredictable because normally, a small error in measurement means a predictable error in your prediction. But non-linear systems– chaotic systems– no matter how small the error in your measurement– and there will always be an error of your measurement–

00:19:47 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:19:47 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Always– can still lead to a very large error in your prediction. So they're very difficult systems to predict and model.

00:19:53 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:19:53 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: But they're the most important systems. And so the book talked about– to model the weather, meteorologist learned how to program– to model earthquakes, a geologist learned how to program.

00:20:05 Aleksandra King: So they were combining disciplines– like you were saying.

00:20:07 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes. And then it has a whole chapter on– the body is full of chaotic systems– the immune system, the heart, and so on– interconnected chaotic systems.

00:20:15 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:20:16 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: But there was no doctor who learned how to program.

00:20:18 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:20:18 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So I said, I'll do that– and I'll learn how to program, and do medicine, so I can write software to model the body's chaotic systems.

00:20:28 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:20:28 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So– so I thought that was a cool idea– I'll try that. And I applied to the medical schools, and they said, why do you want to be a doctor? I don't want to be a doctor– I want to write the software. So four of them turned me down on the spot, saying, you know– you are wasting our time– why are you here? And– but luckily, one of them– Cambridge– said yes, and they allowed me to combine the two disciplines.

00:20:48 Aleksandra King: Yeah– it's fascinating– it's fascinating, because you– yeah– we– we're going into this direction– so let's– let's park this one for a little bit. So– do you consider yourself an ambitious person? It's a yes or no answer, first.

00:21:02 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: No– if you mean competitive ambitious– no.

00:21:06 Aleksandra King: Yes– go ahead– so– yes, you do– why?

00:21:08 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I like doing things that seem difficult or impossible– that's the ambition I have. It's not the ambition to beat someone, or to win– it's– but thinking– everyone thinks this can't be done– let's figure out how to do it. That's the ambition I have.

00:21:25 Aleksandra King: It's okay to say you're ambitious on this podcast– it's okay.

00:21:28 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: No–

00:21:29 Aleksandra King: Because you have to have ambition–

00:21:31 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes.

00:21:32 Aleksandra King: –to want to combine computing and medicine in the way that you did– especially when you did, you know– and still now, when we need it more than ever. You have to have ambition.

00:21:42 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes.

00:21:42 Aleksandra King: So are you ambitious?

00:21:44 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes, I am. Yes, I am. Yes, I am. It's quite therapeutic, this conversation.

00:21:48 Aleksandra King: So– it's not meant to be therapeutic. [laughter] Keep going– sorry– what did your early career look like, then?

00:21:56 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I think my big break– because I was trying to combine the computer and the medicine, I was getting summer jobs during medical school to write software– which was really interesting, because for the professors to get the software, they had to teach me their specialty. But my big break came when I worked for this one professor, and I kept on saying to him, give me more work. He said, you've got a holiday. I said, I still want to do work in my holiday. And I irritated him one day– and so he said, fine– come with me to this meeting tomorrow. So I come to a meeting where there's a room full of radiology professors– and for an hour, they're telling me about what they want done for the DICOM file– and I'm 20, and I'm too embarrassed to say– what is a DICOM? What does that word mean?

00:22:41 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:22:42 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: It's the file format for radiology pictures– like X-rays and CT scans.

00:22:45 Aleksandra King: File for– okay.

00:22:47 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And now– we're into– I still don't know– and at the end, they say– they hand me a stack this thick, and say, these are the specifications for the DICOM file format– and your boss says that you're going to write the software for us.

00:23:00 Aleksandra King: So– software to do what with it, then?

00:23:03 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So what they wanted was to take the X-ray or the CT scan– the file– and then have software that lets them annotate it, highlight it– just explain–

00:23:16 Aleksandra King: Okay– just to make edits to– to– to the file– okay.

00:23:19 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah– I know this now. Anyway– so I'm in a panic, because next day I have to go on my holiday– got this stack of– this stack of instructions– and I still don't know what a DICOM file is. Luckily, that year, there was a new website called Google– and so I figure out what a DICOM file is. And then I found one bit of software that would read a DICOM file into a picture, and another one that would take a picture and let you annotate it, and do all the things– already. And I join up the bits of software– so I do it in two days.

00:23:49 Aleksandra King: You programmed–

00:23:50 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Program– and I want to be clear with you– what I was clear with my boss– which is, all the work was done by these two guys who had written the software. So I just found them, and stitched them–

00:24:00 Aleksandra King: Communicating.

00:24:01 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah. But my– but my– from that point onwards, he just kept on giving me difficult stuff.

00:24:08 Aleksandra King: Nice.

00:24:09 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And I kept on enjoying it.

00:24:10 Aleksandra King: What programming language were you using? What was– developer back then– you were– you're a Java–

00:24:14 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Java.

00:24:15 Aleksandra King: Developer– okay. So you allowed these systems to talk to each other– these apps, or whatever you want to call them– to– to talk to each other– you found a way to link that. So that was, like– like a little breakthrough. And then at what point did that turn into a business?

00:24:32 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So I'd always done little programming jobs, or writing– just anything that would– I'd earn a few hundred pounds a year– nothing much. But– and most of the stuff I did was for free. But what I liked about doing these things is I would get freedom to do new things– and that's what I enjoyed. And in contrast– as I was going through academia and medicine, it was very clear that although there would be a very clear career path and monetary path, there wasn't the freedom. So around about university, I realised I was going to start my own company.

00:25:02 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:25:03 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And I didn't know what it was going to be about– I just knew it would be very difficult to start your own company.

00:25:10 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:25:11 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Therefore, the only way you could persist through the difficulties is if you found the problem so interesting you would keep going for years– because most startups fail– they just– they're very difficult– and most people are incompetent when they begin– it's just hard. But what keeps you going is– this problem is so interesting, I really want to fix it. And I didn't know what that problem would be for me. So I thought, I'm just going to go through as many problems as quickly as I can– individual problems, individual things– anything that people would come to me with, I would just start researching it– and that would often involve writing a book about it– that would be how I learn. And in the meantime, I set myself a syllabus of– by the time I found the idea, I want to make sure I've got all the knowledge– at least the most I can get away with– for starting a business. I worked for a consultancy, I read business books, and so on– I learned more software, I learned more about industry. And so that was syllabus, until I would find the problem that I would–

00:26:03 Aleksandra King: Just a second– so when you're doing these assignments– you're taking these– who's paying you to do them?

00:26:09 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Much of the time, no one was paying me– but there was somebody who wanted the problem fixed– and often I would do it for free– but I would just– wanted–

00:26:15 Aleksandra King: So how were you living? Who–

00:26:17 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Oh– so my day job was– after medical school, I worked for one year as a doctor– and then I went to the States and worked as a scientist for the US federal government. And then, during the time that I had my idea on Patients Know Best, I was a management consultant– that was the final bit of my syllabus– I wanted to learn how people run hospitals.

00:26:36 Aleksandra King: Okay– so you actually have a job– and you're doing all this other stuff in your spare time– you're reading business books, you've got conferences and things going on, you're taking on these little side projects– and you're writing your own books, because you're learning while you're writing.

00:26:49 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Correct.

00:26:49 Aleksandra King: It's very interesting– recipe for how to start a business– it's just–

00:26:54 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So what I like is the learning and the experimenting– and a business is a vehicle to do that. Rather than– so my wider family is very commercial– they're all businessmen– but my parents– my father is an academic, and my mother is an artist– none of us are particularly commercial.

00:27:11 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:27:11 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: But we love learning– and so we see business as a way– I see business as a way to learn, rather than– yeah– to make money.

00:27:18 Aleksandra King: I was listening to something Elon Musk said the other day– I think it was Elon Musk– about people– sometimes when you have people in the business, and they– all these consultants and the experts– and they really learned their subject– they're brilliant business minds– learned business– and they always, when you present an idea to them, give you a million extremely valid reasons why it will never work and cannot be done. And yeah– you sometimes need to just say, thank you– now let's spend equal amount of time talking about why it can be done.

00:27:49 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yes.

00:27:50 Aleksandra King: Let's discuss that. And I suppose the freedom– the fact that you weren't commercially [unclear: driven?]– allowed you to expand that mind– the two sides of your mind working together, I suppose– that's like the apps– the connections– it's like– it's interesting, because that's what– exactly what you're doing–

00:28:05 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Life is interesting in the interfaces.

00:28:07 Aleksandra King: Yes– so whether it's two countries, or two disciplines– because they are two different– there's a little bit of overlap, but they are two different– you know– what is it– prefrontal cortex, and your hyper– hippo– hippocamp– is it– the hippo– but yeah– two different sides.

00:28:23 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: But it's tourism for the mind, right?

00:28:24 Aleksandra King: Tourism for the mind– yeah– gosh– your mind is definitely being active there. Okay– so you are then deciding you want to start this business– and then tell me about the business– what's– what is the name– what is it?

00:28:39 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So in 2007, when working for that management consultancy, my job was to write three books a year, on topics that my hospital clients chose. And so one of them said– several of them said– we want to know how to share medical records with patients– because everyone's asking us to, as a hospital CIO– but this could go really badly, and it could end up in the press if you do it wrong.

00:29:04 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:29:04 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So– tell us how to do it right. I did– I wrote a book, by interviewing all the ones who've done it– how did you do it, what do you avoid, and so on. And that book included me interviewing Microsoft's CTO and Google's CTO, who were launching their platforms on personal health records that year– in 2007.

00:29:23 Aleksandra King: Okay– how did they– how did you get them to talk to you?

00:29:26 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: I just worked the phone– and just said, I'm writing this book– it's going to go to all the hospital CIOs in the USA– I know you're launching this platform idea–

00:29:34 Aleksandra King: Quite nicely– yeah.

00:29:35 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah– and– and they wanted all the hospital CIOs to connect to their platforms.

00:29:38 Aleksandra King: Okay– okay– it was in their interest.

00:29:41 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: It was in their interest– and they– they spoke candidly. But also, I think– from the people who had spoken to them– I got really technical– so I spotted several bugs in what they were describing.

00:29:54 Aleksandra King: I love it– yeah.

00:29:55 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And to their credit, they enjoyed the comment– they said, oh yeah– nobody spotted that before– yeah– oh yeah– but we had to do– the devil was always in the detail.

00:30:02 Aleksandra King: Brilliant opportunity.

00:30:03 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah– I knew– I came to a conclusion during that year. One is that this technology of giving people their records is going to be really important– and I knew that from my– not just from the research, but from my personal experience– that when my nurse in the UK taught me how to inject myself with those antibodies, I was very grateful– I had my independence, I could travel– but I also stopped taking up a hospital bed every 3 weeks– and me doing the injection was higher quality than waiting for the hospital to do it. And giving the data to the person does that at scale, for many more people. So this is a really big idea. And the second thing I concluded was– everyone was doing it wrong– including Microsoft and Google. So they're going– I can just see– this is going to fail in three or four years' time. And I really need this to happen– as a p– as a patient, I really want this problem fixed– and they're all doing it wrong. So I want– I'm going to– I'm going to fix it.

00:31:10 Aleksandra King: So you had– in terms of an entrepreneurial side here– you had a really firm– possibly somewhat naive, but [laughter]– belief– but determined– that even these great big companies– like, actually, you're doing it wrong, and I believe that I've got the solution. But then– what's interesting– that you had– and I wonder where you got this skill– I can't see where you got it– but, like– you realised that you had to sell this, like, mutually beneficial thing– to get these people in– to talk to you– because they're the credible people– the big names– that you need, so that you can start to develop these– yes– these ideas– this platform– this business. So you had the guts and the know-how to sell your concept to them, so they would talk to you– that's quite interesting. So growing up– even though it takes you three years to make friends–

00:32:00 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: So growing up– my brother makes friends quickly– and he's the salesman.

00:32:04 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:32:04 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: And I don't– and I'm the academic.

00:32:06 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:32:07 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: He's now an academic– with– with amazing friendship groups, by the way– but I'm the businessman. So it's strange how these things flip. But if you watch my brother– as a young– he's four years younger than me– but still– talks very eloquently– if you watch him, he's always looking in– what can I do for you? That's how you make friends– that's how you get cooperation– how can I help you? If you find that, then they'll help you. You start small, and you keep going. Even– even in medicine– convincing a patient to take a pill– it's a sales job.

00:32:39 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:32:40 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: You have to– what's in it for them– with all the side effects and all the problems they have– you don't– it's just– giving the prescription does nothing. And so, on the wards– talking to patients, and figuring out what's going on in their lives, and saying, this is why you should take it.

00:32:54 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:32:54 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: That's enjoyable.

00:32:56 Aleksandra King: So– one last question about the business side– what's the one thing about running a business– and no one tells you– that you've learned– that you can feed back now– wish you had known?

00:33:06 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: Yeah– that everybody in the company is there to fill in– to fix your– fill in your gaps. So from that perspective– once you understand that– you realise being the CEO is– to be trite– is very easy– because you're surrounded by people whose job it is to fix all the mistakes that you make, and all the gaps that you have. But then the flip side is– that means your job is to find these people, and convince them to work on this problem with you– and that's your role. And finding them takes time– because it's not just about, do they have the skills– it's, do they have the values– and are they really– will they become as obsessed with that problem as you? And people always say you should hire people smarter than you– and you should– but the flip side of that is, the world is full of people working for people dumber than them– which is very irritating. So you must be as minimally irritating as possible– for these people who are smart– for these people who are smarter than you, and are agreeing to work with you on this problem. So that– that's where the– that's where the focus has to be.

00:34:18 Aleksandra King: Thank you– and thank you so much for that, and for coming on the podcast.

00:34:22 Mohammad Al-Ubaydli: My pleasure.