Gossip, Trust & the Hidden Rules of Human Connection

Interview

00:00:00 Aleksandra King: Robin, welcome to BEYOND, the boardroom.

00:00:03 Robin Dunbar: Great to be here.

00:00:05 Aleksandra King: You have a huge brain full of incredible information, and we're going to pick some of that out and learn– that's what the goal is for today, we're going to be learning. So first, and probably the most important question, what is the maximum amount of friends one should have?

00:00:24 Robin Dunbar: Well, the official limit on the number of friends– and family, I hasten to add– that you can have is 150 people, which is Dunbar's number.

00:00:35 Aleksandra King: So that's your extended family and all your friends?

00:00:39 Robin Dunbar: Yeah. One way to think about it is all the people who at least once a year you try to keep contact with. In the old days, when people sent Christmas cards, it was exactly who you sent Christmas cards to. So if you toted up everybody in the family you sent a card to, it comes out to about 150.

00:00:57 Aleksandra King: 150 still seems like quite a lot if you're counting. So you're counting friends and family and co-workers in here?

00:01:04 Robin Dunbar: Oh, co-workers can be friends. I mean, that's the difference. But out beyond the 150 is another layer that we think of as acquaintances.

00:01:14 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:01:15 Robin Dunbar: A lot of the people you work with would be in that sphere, as it were, but some of the people you work with become friends, because you get on well with them, you see them often.

00:01:25 Aleksandra King: Okay. So when people have like 300-plus friends on Facebook, that's not true?

00:01:31 Robin Dunbar: Well, it's not true anyway, for two reasons. One is the average number of friends on Facebook is actually 149, according to the last census, and that was 61 million Facebook pages.

00:01:44 Aleksandra King: Right.

00:01:45 Robin Dunbar: That's not to say that some people don't have more than that, but what they do is they do what we do in everyday life– they're including as friends, because that's how Facebook and social media–

00:01:57 Aleksandra King: But they're not really, though.

00:01:59 Robin Dunbar: But really, what they're including is acquaintances. So acquaintances are people– we can have a beer with them after work, but we would never invite them home. That's the big difference. The 150 you would invite home.

00:02:11 Aleksandra King: Could an acquaintance be someone you've come across– just someone that you know? Yes, I know you.

00:02:14 Robin Dunbar: Yes. I mean, I think an acquaintance is a bit more than just "I met you once at a party and we exchanged phone numbers"– that you actually see them on a regular basis, and you would go out and do something occasionally with them, even if it's only going to have a beer. Because beyond the– so the acquaintances layer runs out to about 500 people, and then beyond that there's one more layer, which includes people whose faces you can put names to, basically.

00:02:45 Aleksandra King: So sometimes– no, that anybody else is beyond that layer, you can't put a name to the face? One's memory–

00:02:55 Robin Dunbar: Well, yeah. I mean, these things have a range of variation. So, you know, the average number of friends and family that people have is 150, but the range of variation is probably from about 100 to about 250. So introverts, it would be about 100; extroverts, it would be about 200.

00:03:15 Aleksandra King: Okay. So what about kind of variation– builders, you know, you get the builders around, what–

00:03:19 Robin Dunbar: So the group beyond the 150 is you recognise their face, say hi to them in the supermarket.

00:03:24 Aleksandra King: Say hello, hello. And if you went and had a beer with the builders?

00:03:27 Robin Dunbar: No, no, they probably count in the acquaintances layer. So they turned up once– you'd probably recognise them in the street if you saw them again, and you would remember who it was, you could sort of put a name to the face, really. But that takes you out to about 1,500 people.

00:03:46 Aleksandra King: Wow. Well, there's no way you can remember all those people's names, I mean–

00:03:51 Robin Dunbar: No, no, it's literally– that is the number of faces you can put a name to. And a lot of them are sort of, dare I say it, weird people, like the presidents of the United States, or the King or the Queen, celebrities, all the TV personalities, all that kind of thing.

00:04:12 Aleksandra King: And is that– those relationships are one-way? You know who they are, but they have no idea who you are.

00:04:18 Robin Dunbar: Really, realistically, at that level. And as you come in, the acquaintances layer, you both know who each other is, but you don't really have a meaningful relationship, and you certainly wouldn't lend them 50 quid.

00:04:29 Aleksandra King: Mhm. Okay, that explains a lot. That's a huge difference. Okay, so then, if we go back to the intimate circle, why do some friendships last a lifetime and others not? They're still your friends, so why is it– and that–

00:04:42 Robin Dunbar: Well, that's because friendships are kind of on a scale of intimacy or emotional closeness. So if you think about the 150 friends and family you have, actually you can easily identify within them a series of gradations of friendship. You can see this beautifully in terms of who you phone most often, or who you post to most often on Facebook, for example.

00:05:07 Aleksandra King: Right.

00:05:08 Robin Dunbar: It turns out there's a series of layers that occur at very specific numbers. There's a layer of five, what we call the shoulders-to-cry-on friends, which are kind of like your support group, as it were, that you go to.

00:05:20 Aleksandra King: The shoulders to cry on, yeah.

00:05:21 Robin Dunbar: Yes. You know, when your world falls apart, they're the people who will pick you up and put you back on your feet. Then out beyond that, there's a layer at 15, which is known as the sympathy group, because they're the group of people who, if they died tomorrow, you would be genuinely upset about– not just sorry that they've died, but you would be genuinely upset. And that seems to be about 15 people. And then beyond that, there's a layer at about 50, which I always identify as your kind of weekend barbecue friends. If you're going to have a dinner party, it would come from the 15 layer– you know, three or four people for a dinner party. If you're going to have a slightly bigger party for your birthday, in the garden in the summer with a barbecue, you would go to that layer of 50. And then your 150 is what I call your kind of bar mitzvahs, weddings and funerals group.

00:06:11 Aleksandra King: Yes, they're the bigger group.

00:06:14 Robin Dunbar: Once-in-a-lifetime events, they'll come to those.

00:06:16 Aleksandra King: Yeah, cuz my husband was actually asking me– I mean, it's very strange in a way to put numbers to these emotional things, so I didn't really think about it. Like, it's okay– the intimate group of five, and then we go beyond, and you've got the group of 50 that you invite to a party. But it makes sense. It's kind of spookishly accurate.

00:06:34 Robin Dunbar: I know, it's frightening, isn't it? But I mean, if you ask, as we have done with many of our studies– you ask people to rate these people in these circles for their emotional closeness to them, you can see this beautifully laid out. They feel much more emotionally close– they'll give a higher rating to people in that inner core of five, say, than people in the 150, or the people out in the 500 layer of acquaintances.

00:07:00 Aleksandra King: And you're right– for that garden party, when you have to say how many, or who should we invite, it is, you know, it is just the right sweet spot of 50. But then you're right, a wedding is about 150-ish.

00:07:10 Robin Dunbar: Yes, if you have to budget, might– you know. I mean, in some other cultures– I mean, Asian cultures tend to have very big weddings, but what they're doing is they're going out into that layer of acquaintances, very often because there's no family out in that layer of acquaintances.

00:07:25 Aleksandra King: Right.

00:07:25 Robin Dunbar: All your in-laws and outlaws, or whatever the proper word is for your genuine biological family, are all contained within the 150.

00:07:37 Aleksandra King: Mm. Right.

00:07:39 Robin Dunbar: One of the oddities is that that extends out to about second cousins-ish.

00:07:44 Aleksandra King: Yes. Right.

00:07:45 Robin Dunbar: And no culture in the world has a kinship term for anybody who's more remote– biologically more remote– than that. So most of them just have different kinds of cousins, and that's as far as they go. After that, you're strangers– well, you're not strangers, but you're not our kin.

00:08:04 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:08:05 Robin Dunbar: Well, you're not kissing kin.

00:08:06 Aleksandra King: Yeah, you're there. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so let's say you have someone that you meet and you want them to be closer to you– you want them to like you, but you want it to happen faster. How do you do that?

00:08:19 Robin Dunbar: Then the whole thing revolves around how often you see people. So another way of defining the layers is simply in terms of the frequency with which you see them. And it turns out that the layers are defined by very specific frequencies of contact, and those frequencies of contact are evident not only in face-to-face contact, but in how often you phone these people, how often you even post to them on Facebook.

00:08:46 Aleksandra King: Right. Really worried about how I treat people socially.

00:08:50 Robin Dunbar: That inner core of five people are people who you generally see at least once a week.

00:08:58 Aleksandra King: Right, at least once a week.

00:09:01 Robin Dunbar: And the people in the 150 circle, it's at least once a year.

00:09:05 Aleksandra King: Can I ask you a question? So do you really have these five intimate, close people, more or less?

00:09:11 Robin Dunbar: Do you know, cuz I'm a bloke–

00:09:15 Aleksandra King: Come on.

00:09:17 Robin Dunbar: Well, blokes have more– boys have more diffuse, kind of anonymous kind of relationships. They live in a kind of clubby world, compared to girls. Girls have much more intimate, dyadic relationships. They specify much more where people lie, whereas boys– it really is anonymous. It's out of sight, out of mind. If Jimmy goes off to Thailand for the rest of the– everybody, you know, who used to go drinking with him, or climbing mountains, or whatever they used to do together, will shrug their shoulders and say, well, he was fun while he was there. Now who's next in the queue for membership of our little club? So it varies, actually.

00:09:53 Aleksandra King: Oh, yes.

00:09:54 Robin Dunbar: Yeah, so these are dynamic. I mean, you can't do much about your family– you can throw them out, and it does happen, surprisingly often. But– and this is true, even, to be fair, of family relationships– they slide up and down this scale, from the nearest and most emotionally close person to you, to your 150th person. People come and go through the layers, basically, and that's as a consequence of how much time you invest in them.

00:10:24 Aleksandra King: Okay, so how do you make them like you faster? I mean, there would be people that– I really like that person, I want them to like me more, and quicker. Okay, what do you do then?

00:10:36 Robin Dunbar: Well, there are several caveats, but the basic thing is to spend more time with them.

00:10:41 Aleksandra King: All right.

00:10:42 Robin Dunbar: Because it's all dependent on spending time. In fact– gosh– to get somebody who is outside your 150– so somebody you've basically just met, a stranger– into at least your 15 layer, your regular sort of social–

00:10:59 Aleksandra King: Yeah, yeah.

00:11:01 Robin Dunbar: – takes about 200 hours of face-to-face contact.

00:11:05 Aleksandra King: Oh no. All right, it's hard work.

00:11:07 Robin Dunbar: And that's partly because you've also got to drop somebody. You've got to drop somebody if you want to bring somebody else in– somebody's got to fall out of your circle.

00:11:16 Aleksandra King: Brutal. All right.

00:11:18 Robin Dunbar: And you see this most clearly demonstrated in romantic relationships, because, for obvious reasons, not many of us fall in love with the people in our innermost circle. They come in from way outside the solar system, usually– they're strangers, but very often we're introduced to them by a member of our inner circle. So you bring them right into the centre, and you've now got six people instead of five– too much– but this person, because of the nature of the relationship, is taking up twice as much time. So they're taking up two units, so you've actually got seven units of person-time, where you should only have five. And what do you do? You drop two people. So you reduce the size of that circle to four, and what you usually do is drop a family member and a friend.

00:12:10 Aleksandra King: Right, cuz the inner circle would typically consist of–

00:12:12 Robin Dunbar: Two family members– brothers, sisters, parents, whatever, granny.

00:12:17 Aleksandra King: That's a huge price. The person better be right. Romance is– that's so expensive.

00:12:23 Robin Dunbar: Yes.

00:12:24 Aleksandra King: And if you think about– I mean, if you're a consultant, you think about your hourly rate, and you're talking about this investment of all these hours. So I never thought about this like this, I have to say. This is freaking me out, but it's– I mean, it's– yeah, it's quite disturbing.

00:12:38 Robin Dunbar: Yes, yes, I know. Actually, yeah.

00:12:41 Aleksandra King: So you have to invest more time– you want them to like you?

00:12:43 Robin Dunbar: Yes, you have to invest more time. There is a catch here, and that's what I call the Jane Austen problem.

00:12:51 Aleksandra King: Okay. Right.

00:12:52 Robin Dunbar: So everybody– what makes a good friendship is this phenomenon known as homophily. We tend to like people who are very similar to us–

00:13:02 Aleksandra King: Right.

00:13:03 Robin Dunbar: – not only in kind of traits we don't have any control over, you know, like our sex, or our personality, or our age– these, we tend to prefer people of the same sex, the same age, the same psychological personality, particularly on the extrovert–introvert, so introverts prefer introverts, extroverts prefer extroverts– same ethnicity, and, you know, might be race, it might be just people from your village as opposed to the next-door village, if you like. So those things we kind of can't do anything about. But there's a bunch of things which we acquire culturally– we learn them– and which define us as a member of a cultural subcommunity. These are what we call the seven pillars of friendship. So they're like a supermarket barcode of who you are. They're the things you like– you know, the sense of humour, the music you like, your hobbies and interests, your moral and political views, these kinds of things. And what we're looking for is somebody who resembles us as much as possible. Right? So there you are, in a classic Jane Austen situation. Everybody has an ideal Mr Darcy– he's rich, he's famous, you know, he's got connections, big house, all this kind of stuff, entertaining– tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. So everybody wants to marry Mr Darcy– well, or be friends with Mr Darcy, as the case may be. The problem is, Mr Darcy has a choice. Right? So of all the people– he can't be friends with everybody, so he's only going to choose one. What do the rest of you do? Well, you end up marrying– as the case may be, being friends with– the curate, who's boring, not very handsome–

00:14:40 Aleksandra King: Oh, sad. Poor– oh, terrible.

00:14:43 Robin Dunbar: So most of our friends– and even romantic partners, I dare say– are friends of convenience, until we find somebody better.

00:14:53 Aleksandra King: So that's why people can easily drop a friend. That's why, you know, I– for my romantic partner, for my future partners– I'm not compromising on this, cuz it's possibly one of the most important decisions of my life. And I must be genuine, and I must go for the right person, or I'm in trouble forever.

00:15:13 Robin Dunbar: Yes. Well, it turns out that, as with friendship, so with romantic partners– the more similar you are, culturally and so on, all the things you have in common, the longer the relationship will last. And when we first meet somebody– and we actually showed this going on, in effect, in telephone call data, so phone call logs, in very, very big samples, and in three different countries– when we first meet somebody, we make a big effort–

00:15:46 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:15:46 Robin Dunbar: – either to see them, or we phone them a lot.

00:15:49 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:15:49 Robin Dunbar: And it turns out that we could predict both how long the relationship– the friendship– would last, and its intimacy– that's to say, which layer it would lie on– on the basis of the frequency with which that person was phoned in the first four to six weeks after that number first appears in the call log.

00:16:10 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Right. So we make this big effort to engage them, find out– we're ticking the boxes all the time, and then we kind of go, no, think I'll try somewhere else–

00:16:20 Robin Dunbar: Mhm.

00:16:20 Aleksandra King: – or, yes, perfect, perfect. Yeah, the stronger the energy– cuz also it has to last the lifetime, so it, you know, dissipates over time, maybe a little bit, but it needs to kind of keep you going– the fuel.

00:16:31 Robin Dunbar: Well, there is the weird thing, that people converge with each other, and they do it with friends as well as with romantic partners. So if you see a lot of each other, or you live together, inevitably you tend to share experiences, so you're kind of converging your interests. Because your seven pillars, as it were– what they really seem to point to is where you grew up– your teenage years, where you learned how to be a member of the community, whatever that community might be. There's something about that period in life that then becomes a benchmark– you never quite– the music of that period, you never quite forget.

00:17:12 Aleksandra King: It's true. That's right. It's the real mark of it, isn't it?

00:17:17 Robin Dunbar: But of course, you know, we have different experiences as we go through life. So, you know, your musical taste may change, your sense of humour may change, whatever– your moral views might change. But part of that is trying to bed into a new community. So as you move– you know, your friendship circles change, move into a job in a different city or a different country or something– you're trying to embed into it.

00:17:41 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

00:17:41 Robin Dunbar: And, you know, you adjust your– I mean, one of the components of this is your dialect, and therefore your accent, that identifies where you grew up. And children, from the age of five, know whether your accent is the same as mine or not– whether it's the local one, or it's somebody from outside. They're incredibly good at identifying that. But of course, if we move somewhere else, then we try to bed in, and you get this phenomenon which is known as mid-Atlantic, which was very common particularly in the '70s and '80s, when a lot of people moved to America from Britain, and they tried to become more Americanised– you had this sort of semi-Americanised thing.

00:18:23 Aleksandra King: Yes. Right. And I mean, I did that. I mean, I came to Britain when I was 12, so I had a completely different accent, and I had to adjust– I had to reinvent myself. But I never completely lost that accent, so my accent– nobody can ever figure out where I come from, cuz I don't sound like a native English or Scottish person.

00:18:51 Robin Dunbar: I can hear a bit of that, yeah.

00:18:54 Aleksandra King: But it's nice not to lose that, because it's also part of you. And although you're reinventing, and you're adapting, and you're trying to fit in– it's almost like at school, you know, you're trying to fit in– and that, you don't want to, particularly at that age.

00:19:05 Robin Dunbar: Yeah. You're much better at learning a new accent in the– well, up to, say, the end of the teens. I mean, the younger you are, the better you learn it.

00:19:16 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:19:17 Robin Dunbar: But after the teens, in your 20s onwards, you never quite learn the local accent to perfection. Local speakers can always tell– just the way you pronounce the odd word or the odd syllable, or the way you use a word in the wrong place.

00:19:35 Aleksandra King: Okay, can I ask you this question? And this wasn't one that we discussed in the pre-podcast call. But let's just say, you know, we're talking about fitting in here, in order to make the group comfortable with you and all that sort of thing. But what if you're the type of personality that sort of comes in and is a bit of a– like, you know– and, you know, they're interested, and that little bit scared– but then you don't really want to necessarily fit in, because you like– you are that sort of person that isn't a fitter-inner, if you know what I mean?

00:20:12 Robin Dunbar: This is a kind of version of the Mr Darcy effect, you know, because you're being parachuted in from far outside the village, and you're very exotic– the way you do things, your accent, whatever, and the way you behave. And that does have a certain attraction. So that can work– it can work. But it's a high-risk strategy.

00:20:37 Aleksandra King: Yes, it's a high-risk strategy.

00:20:39 Robin Dunbar: If you want an easy life, try and meld in with everybody else.

00:20:45 Aleksandra King: But if– you have to be very confident, I think, as an extrovert, and you have to be very sure of how you can handle situations and people, because people are very easily put off by boastfulness which has no substance.

00:21:03 Robin Dunbar: Yes.

00:21:04 Aleksandra King: You know? So– and can you call it narcissism, and all that sort of– all that toxic–

00:21:10 Robin Dunbar: Yes, those sort of people can be very successful–

00:21:12 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:21:13 Robin Dunbar: – but by and large, they're successful as bullies, rather than as people managers.

00:21:18 Aleksandra King: So what's the difference between that– someone who's genuinely, let's say, the exotic, confident, doesn't mean badly to anyone, is just by nature such a person– and then the one that is maliciously– well, I don't know if you know the difference. Maybe they're not trying to be malicious, but maybe they just saw a bit– what is that thing that is so horrible?

00:21:38 Robin Dunbar: Leadership, actually, is what it boils down to. And we're very prone to following people who appear charismatic, and appear to have gifts that are greater than the ones we have– that they make good leaders to follow, you know. And we do it all the time– pop stars, celebrities, you know, people who invent stuff and become, you know, charismatic CEOs of a big organisation. And that kind of has a place in our social world, because, in the end, the social world is about cooperation and diplomacy. But you can't have sort of 500 braves in the organisation– you've got to have some chiefs somewhere to provide kind of direction and strategic–

00:22:35 Aleksandra King: Can I stop you there– what–

00:22:35 Robin Dunbar: – your charismatic leader does. So that then becomes a kind of focus, and we kind of do it all– you know, why do we have a monarchy here? It's not in itself very important– it is a figurehead. Of course, it's a flag.

00:22:47 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:22:47 Robin Dunbar: You know, and you can sort of attach yourself to the flag as kind of standing for, you know, your wider community. And some countries take this very seriously– if you think of the United States, in school, every morning, they pledge allegiance to the flag, as a school. And I'm sure it has this effect of creating this sense of community, in a way which we no longer do.

00:23:16 Aleksandra King: Yeah, yeah. Sense of community is important.

00:23:19 Robin Dunbar: It is important.

00:23:21 Aleksandra King: So just going back to the whole acquaintance thing– just to clarify– so if you want someone to upgrade from acquaintance to close circle, it's about the time– you have to invest the time. And then, is it so that some people are just naturally better at making friends, having friends, keeping friends, and some just don't have those skills? Or are we all born with the same thing?

00:23:41 Robin Dunbar: No, we're definitely not all born with the same skills. Cuz the skills of managing a social environment– whether it's an organisation, or just your friendship circle, or even your family, and even your romantic relationships– all hinge around a core set of cognitive abilities, which we all share, but not to the same extent. They're quite variable. Now, the key ones are probably the ability to understand what somebody else is thinking.

00:24:12 Aleksandra King: All right.

00:24:12 Robin Dunbar: Now, the way that's viewed is– we're very good at sort of thinking through a chain. So, I'm wondering what you're thinking about what Jim over there is supposing, and what somebody else–

00:24:31 Aleksandra King: That's right, that's right. It is chess, actually.

00:24:33 Robin Dunbar: Exactly. And that's a very good analogy, because clearly, you know, superstars in chess– what makes them superstars is they can think through many successive moves.

00:24:46 Aleksandra King: Well, that's true, yes.

00:24:48 Robin Dunbar: Whereas, you know, a very bad chess player like me, you know, can just only think one move.

00:24:55 Aleksandra King: A bad chess player– I can't believe that.

00:24:57 Robin Dunbar: So the natural– the range of– what is the average mentalising abilities allows us to handle five people's mind states, including my own. So that's me thinking about four other people. The range of variation is from about three to about six, probably.

00:25:16 Aleksandra King: Right.

00:25:17 Robin Dunbar: So some people– and that has very, very wide consequences. So one of the things we've shown is that people who have the average capacity of five– might be able to handle five mind states– prefer fiction, fictional stories, which have five– or four other mind states going on in the same thing. And the best way to see this is Shakespeare– he's absolutely wonderful about it. You can see– the number of speaking parts he has on the stage at any one time is never more than four.

00:25:50 Aleksandra King: Incredible.

00:25:51 Robin Dunbar: Right? But if they're talking about somebody's mind state– Hamlet, who's not there, so it's Hamlet's friends talking about Hamlet's mind state, and he's doing whatever he was doing somewhere else– he reduces the number to three. And what he's doing is making sure he doesn't overload his audience's abilities.

00:26:09 Aleksandra King: All right. But smart.

00:26:12 Robin Dunbar: The people– normal human adults, there's nothing unusual about them, as it were, psychologically– the lower limit is about handling three mind states, and that's perfectly fine. You can get by in the social world and conversations and all these things quite happily with third-order mentalising, as it's called. But it does mean that a fifth-order mentalising story just becomes incomprehensible to you, so you like stories which involve only a couple of people's mind states. And this applies to our preferences for humour as well. You know, those with fifth-order mentalising prefer long, complicated jokes with several characters in them, whereas people with sort of third-order mind-state capacity will prefer third-order jokes– that's to say, only two characters in the joke.

00:27:06 Aleksandra King: Such a scientific way of thinking about such things in life– I can't–

00:27:10 Robin Dunbar: So there's that. And what we tend to do is pick people who are similar mind-state–

00:27:15 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

00:27:16 Robin Dunbar: – mentalising competence. The other thing is the capacity to inhibit– inhibit your selfish desires, your tendency to grab the biggest thing on the plate. Because if you do that too much–

00:27:29 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

00:27:29 Robin Dunbar: – then you just drive everybody away. Right? So to keep everybody around the table, you need to be able to inhibit yourself from grabbing everything that you want, in order to allow them to have a bit of a share.

00:27:46 Aleksandra King: Gosh, there's a lot of social awareness to keeping these friends.

00:27:51 Robin Dunbar: So people vary a lot on both these traits, and therefore, you know, it has implications for both the stability of relationships. You know, people who have very poor inhibitory capacities– and this appears very early in life– you know, you can predict people's relationship stabilities in their 40s from how good they are at not grabbing the sweets on the table when they've been told, at the age of five.

00:28:24 Aleksandra King: Wow. Parenting 101.

00:28:28 Robin Dunbar: Well, the problem is, it's pre-parenting. I mean, those are exceptional, but there tends to be a genetic component to it. And, you know, the thing is beyond change, as it were– for those sort of people, it's extremely hard for them to learn to be tolerant in that sense. They just fly off the handle all the time.

00:28:53 Aleksandra King: Yes. And these kinds of things– can I ask another question, then? There are things going around social media, and actually I've liked some of these sometimes– I'm going to admit this now– where it's like, oh, you know, sometimes I'm just happy coming home to my pet.

00:29:09 Robin Dunbar: Yes.

00:29:09 Aleksandra King: Just a cat or dog– it's like, just much rather spend time with them than having to socialise. And I mean, I just– friends are nice and everything, but it's hard work. And then your cat or your dog– nice pets– even watching some bird. I mean, I'm getting older– not ashamed to say it– sometimes you just want to chill out and not see these friends. Is that okay?

00:29:28 Robin Dunbar: But it is okay. There's absolutely no prescription why you have to have people– your five closest relationships, or your 150 friends and family. You're perfectly entitled to have your pets.

00:29:43 Aleksandra King: I'm not saying never, I'm just saying sometimes.

00:29:46 Robin Dunbar: Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. But I think that's partly because cats and dogs, because of the way we've domesticated them, are so responsive to us, and so giving, in that sense, that they're the perfect friends.

00:30:01 Aleksandra King: In a bad mood, they never–

00:30:02 Robin Dunbar: Exactly. And, you know, they're like the perfect friend. And so the temptation– you know, whereas normal people will vary, and they have their own interests– you know, they want a share of the cake on the table. In fact, they'd rather have a slightly bigger share than you. Whereas–

00:30:20 Aleksandra King: Well, I was going to say, your dog will let you have half– but actually, he probably would.

00:30:25 Robin Dunbar: No– yeah. But anyway.

00:30:28 Aleksandra King: But you'd happily let them have that– that's the thing. You'd sacrifice yourself, wouldn't you, for your pet.

00:30:32 Robin Dunbar: Yeah.

00:30:32 Aleksandra King: Your friend.

00:30:33 Robin Dunbar: Yeah, and I think that's not uncommon, yeah. You know, that people have very close attachments.

00:30:40 Aleksandra King: I was happy, actually, to see the posts on Facebook, so I thought, oh good, it's like me. So I wanted to ask you about– there's something I read on your LinkedIn, which is about gossip, and that that's a really lovely, good thing. Why would you say something like that? Because gossip– gossip for me– I do find sometimes when I go into these circles and, you know, chatting– and it tends to be, actually, a lot of the time, you know, the sort of the mum-with-the-kids crowd– and then the gossip starts, and there's someone being [unclear: slated?] at all times, you know– and always–

00:31:16 Robin Dunbar: Why? Well, this all hinges around how you define gossip.

00:31:20 Aleksandra King: Okay, all right.

00:31:21 Robin Dunbar: So that kind of horrid sense of gossip– wicked sense of gossip– is actually relatively recent. It's not the original meaning of the word gossip. So the word gossip is a corruption of God's sib.

00:31:37 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

00:31:38 Robin Dunbar: All right? So, the peer-group equivalent of your godparents– so the people who look after you and you hang out with. And therefore the older sense of gossiping, in English, is literally hanging over the garden fence, passing time with your neighbours. All inconsequential, probably– you know, doing no more than saying, it's a lovely day today, isn't it? It's just hanging out with them.

00:32:03 Aleksandra King: Hanging out, yeah.

00:32:04 Robin Dunbar: The problem, with anything in an evolutionary, biological world, is that it can always be exploited for both good and bad. And like many things, this capacity to pass information– so there is a sense in which gossip– this positive sense of gossip– plays an important role in managing our relationships. Because you, by definition, cannot possibly know everything that's happened, 24 hours a day, to all your 150. You know, you can't even do it for, probably, your romantic partner– the one closest person, in position number one– because some of the time they're elsewhere. Right? So what we rely on is a chain of information flow– gossip– through the network created by our 150s. And you see this particularly with family, so that in family contexts, there's almost always a person called a kin-keeper.

00:33:05 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:33:06 Robin Dunbar: Usually female, because they do it best. But what their role is, is to keep everybody up to date on how everybody's doing– how little Jamal's new baby is getting on.

00:33:17 Aleksandra King: I might be guilty of that as well.

00:33:19 Robin Dunbar: But they play a terribly important role– really good to say to, you know, so-and-so, this has happened. And, you know, in some sense, family networks are better than friendship networks in this point of view, because there are so many interconnections– it's like a spider's web. So you can get information– if Jemima doesn't tell you, Penelope will.

00:33:39 Aleksandra King: Information transfer.

00:33:41 Robin Dunbar: Yes, it's all about information transfer. Now, that helps us keep up to date with how things– therefore, you don't make faux pas when you bump into somebody, and, you know, you say– you know, maybe they just got married or something like that– you don't want to be doing that– you don't want to say, you know, how lovely, only to discover, in fact, they got divorced the next day.

00:34:03 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:34:03 Robin Dunbar: Right? And you didn't know about it. So all those kind of dreadful things, which can be very– they're the kind of thing that cause friendships and family relationships to break down.

00:34:13 Aleksandra King: So it's a loss– what causes breakdowns?

00:34:16 Robin Dunbar: I mean, by this I mean terminal breakdowns, right– catastrophic breakdowns. It's either loss of trust–

00:34:24 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

00:34:25 Robin Dunbar: – or overexploitation– you just end up doing all the work, they're always borrowing stuff off you, never paying you back, these kind of things. Or it's, you know, sort of just not knowing what's going on in the relationship– always sort of saying things, either in public or unintentionally, and, you know, perhaps– but just saying things which, you know, offend you, or hurt you, or whatever. Right? And that's because they're not really engaging well enough with you. So, you know, you kind of go, sod it– yeah, that's it, I'm not talking to you ever again. That kind of information flow then becomes very important. But, like a lot of these things, these capacities can be exploited for gain, as in propaganda– the propaganda sense, the PR– kind of PR spinning–

00:35:24 Aleksandra King: Spin. Right.

00:35:25 Robin Dunbar: And that leads you very quickly– and that, of course, is also important, because you do want to know if somebody in your social world, or maybe your charismatic leaders, are behaving in ways which are–

00:35:38 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

00:35:39 Robin Dunbar: – bad for you and your interests, or you consider are unacceptable in some way. Right? So you don't keep following, or keep retaining as a friend, somebody who actually has changed so dramatically that you don't want to be seen out with–

00:35:55 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:35:55 Robin Dunbar: Right? So there is a sense in which hearing about the negative side of gossip becomes important. Well, once you have that in the system, it's only a very short step to somebody exploiting it, and using it to promote themselves– overpromote themselves– or to cast aspersions on somebody else's character, who's a rival.

00:36:18 Aleksandra King: Right. Mhm.

00:36:19 Robin Dunbar: So that happens a lot. But what's interesting in this context is, we actually are very intolerant, and do not like people who overplay the negative gossip card too much.

00:36:31 Aleksandra King: Okay, explain.

00:36:32 Robin Dunbar: Well, gossips in that sense– in the negative sense– tend to get shunned socially, because they're regarded as unreliable. So they're not going to keep your secrets.

00:36:46 Aleksandra King: Yeah, because you think, you'll do that about me.

00:36:48 Robin Dunbar: Yes, right. You know, if they're telling me all these tales about Jemima down the road–

00:36:53 Aleksandra King: I know– some of them seem quite socially flourishing, I don't know if they–

00:36:57 Robin Dunbar: Well, they can be, because they provide information. And that's why they do it– at one level, anyway. It makes them into a kind of charismatic leader, so people come to them for information.

00:37:11 Aleksandra King: Gosh.

00:37:12 Robin Dunbar: But on the other hand, you know, you probably don't want to, you know, commit yourself emotionally too much–

00:37:21 Aleksandra King: No.

00:37:21 Robin Dunbar: – to that sort of person, because you can't trust–

00:37:23 Aleksandra King: Yeah, it is trust– trust, trust. Trust is the hugest thing in the world for relationships.

00:37:27 Robin Dunbar: Central to all these relationships.

00:37:30 Aleksandra King: But then again, if you– yeah– they can broadcast information that you want released. If you– then they're broadcasters, in a way. I mean, you can play the game and feed them information you want to get out.

00:37:42 Robin Dunbar: You never know how reliable they are.

00:37:44 Aleksandra King: Okay. So what's the key ingredient– I think it is trust, isn't it– for deep friendship, long-lasting? That is the cornerstone of– and empathy as well, too?

00:37:54 Robin Dunbar: Well, empathy is the kind of route to creating trust. Because what seems to– and this is kind of the interesting feature of the seven pillars of friendship, these kind of cultural dimensions that define our relationships– what they seem to do is to act as a shortcut to identifying people we can trust. Because it identifies the community they're from, and therefore we know how they think– we know the kind of ways, you know, people in that community– how they view the world, what they expect of other people in terms of behaviour, and their values, and all these kind of things. So it's a shortcut to that, which allows you to– otherwise, you've got to spend all this time getting to know them. Whereas if you kind of come out with your little checklist and say, you know– do you like so-and-so's jokes, do you like so-and-so's music, you know, do you believe X is the case–

00:38:51 Aleksandra King: It's like a business investment– it's like, what sort of company am I investing in, what sort of human am I investing in?

00:38:54 Robin Dunbar: Right. You've got these things– shortcut.

00:38:56 Aleksandra King: Yes, less a few hours, you know– 200. It's costly.

00:38:59 Robin Dunbar: But that's because business– or any organisation, you know, whether it's, I don't know, a government department, or a private business– is a social world. Right? It's people doing stuff, collaborating to produce a product of some kind– you know, whether it's designing the layout of the streets, and making sure there are enough, you know, sort of sewers and electric cables and stuff for the businesses and houses around, or literally producing a product that other people might want to buy. All those organisations are built around trust, essentially– that people will do their share of the work, and will provide the right kind of leadership, and, you know, fulfil their tasks, as it were, properly, in the grand scheme of things. And when businesses sort of fall down– or organisations of that kind fall down– when trust is lost, it doesn't make any difference whether it's a kind of, I don't know, you know, a little club of dog lovers of some kind– you know, of a particular interest, if you like– or a sports club run by volunteers, or a big organisation like a business. When the people lose trust in the leadership, the thing falls apart.

00:40:23 Aleksandra King: So is a leader– socially, in a social circle– would you consider a leader, a social leader, someone who makes the effort to bring friends together, and organising– you know, I'm coming to town, let's meet up, so-and-so, you come from there– you know, organising, planning the logistics? Is that– what do you think about people like that, that care enough, that organise these things? What are they? Is it a good force? Being as I'm not that sort of person– it's a thankless task.

00:40:54 Robin Dunbar: It is, isn't it? But you've got to have it. I mean, you won't have a group, basically– or you won't have a community– if you don't have people who are willing to be the leaders. That's really what a charismatic leader does. Not only do they provide the kind of figurehead for the organisation, but they also provide, in some sense, the structure to it, and make sure– you know, their commitment, in some sense, is to make sure everything works within it, and that people are introduced, in the way you suggest. And that's partly because that's very time-consuming to do, for most of us, and it's a thankless task. But what's interesting is, it becomes necessary to have that kind of structural organisation once your little community– whether it's a business or a voluntary group– gets above about 40 people. So, as it inches around that 50 layer. If it's smaller– we've shown this with communities of practice in business– if the community is smaller than about 40 or 50 people, everything can be done democratically. You don't need a leader, you don't need a committee. Somebody will volunteer, and somebody will organise the room, and somebody will get the biscuits and the tea, without being asked to do it, and things get done. Once you get above 50, you get this extraordinary, rapid phase shift, where, if you don't have a kind of management structure of some kind– so you have a committee that's responsible for it, and going around begging people to turn up to the next meeting– things won't happen. People will just drift away. And, you know, any group that tries to be democratic in that sense that's bigger than 50 simply doesn't survive. You need a strong leader to manage a big group.

00:42:49 Aleksandra King: Okay, so what then makes people want to push others away? Because you've got that thing too, where you think, oh no–

00:42:57 Robin Dunbar: Well, I think it's just basically the fact you don't connect with them. Right? You've got nothing in common with them. So all these things that create this homophily effect– both biological and psychological traits, but also these cultural traits, the seven pillars of friendship– you know, at the end of the day, if you don't have enough connection with people, the relationship won't last. Right? So the classic case is, you know– I don't know– you're there in the bar at Ibiza, or some seaside place, and it's 4:00 in the morning, and there's only one other person in the bar, you know, and it turns out you both happen to be enthusiasts for tiddlywinks. Right? So suddenly you've got a friend for the night.

00:43:51 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:43:52 Robin Dunbar: But because it's only one tiny dimension of all the possible points of contact, you know, that friendship is not going to survive the aeroplane journey home. Right? When you go home, you'll never think about them again– but for that one night, it works well. And you see this happening all the time. It's what I call school-gate friendships. All right? And it's very, very common. So, you know, particularly sort of in the primary school period for your children, because you have to go and collect them from the school– all the parents are standing around, you know, and the kids will come out and say, oh, you know, can Jemima come and play?

00:44:35 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:44:36 Robin Dunbar: And so the parents get to talk to each other, cuz they have to, to give permission, obviously. And then the kids are such good friends, the parents start to spend time together, because they would do things at the weekend– maybe they go on holiday. And then, as time goes by, and either the kids move to different senior schools, or, further on, go to different universities– at that point, the kids stop being friends–

00:45:01 Aleksandra King: Yeah, probably cuz they meet new people.

00:45:03 Robin Dunbar: – and the parents stop being friends. And what happens then is, they bump into each other in the supermarket– in the aisle in the supermarket– they say, oh, I haven't seen you for ages, you must come round, I'll give you a call–

00:45:15 Aleksandra King: And they don't.

00:45:15 Robin Dunbar: And they don't. And a year later, exactly the same little cartoon is repeated again– the same aisle, in the same supermarket, close to home.

00:45:26 Aleksandra King: Frightening. But yes, this happens to everyone. This is just one of those– you can't force this stuff.

00:45:31 Robin Dunbar: No, no. But it's also, you know, it's part of the fact that your social network is dynamic.

00:45:38 Aleksandra King: Yes. Okay.

00:45:39 Robin Dunbar: You're stuck with the identity of your family– although you can move them up and down the layers– but with friendships–

00:45:46 Robin Dunbar: – because you're meeting new people as you go through life, who become more interesting to you because of your current kinds of interests. And people's interests drift apart when they're not together. So if you don't see somebody– this is the experience you have when you go back to a school reunion, at the age of 40 or 50, right, for the first time. And all these people– kids that you, as a teenager, spent all your time with, partying with, and doing all sorts of wicked things with– and you meet them again when you're 40 and 50, and you go, oh my God, they're awful– did I say– really– friends? And it's simply because you've drifted apart, and had different life experiences, and therefore kind of different things become important to you. So that's a normal part of the dynamics of friendship, if you don't constantly live together– that's what keeps you in line, as it were, because you're having the same experiences all the time.

00:46:44 Aleksandra King: You know, my experience is slightly different to that, in the sense that I went to boarding school, so I think I– you did– so you stay closer with the people, because you spend more time with them– it's quite intense, true, actually, the formative years. Although you also drift apart, and, you know, eventually– but it's a little bit different, it's no– I think–

00:47:04 Robin Dunbar: Yes, but I think– you have to remember, also, there is a little core here of very, very close friends. So you spend a lot of time with, I don't know, let's say 10 or 12 kids as a teenager, partying together, but out of those 10 or 12, you have one or two who are really close friends–

00:47:24 Aleksandra King: Of course.

00:47:24 Robin Dunbar: – as it were. And it's those close friends– will never be lost. You can pick those friendships up again 20, 30 years later, exactly where you left off. And I think it's because they were so close– the emotional component of it is grounded in stone, whereas the others, who were slightly less important to you– the intensity of the emotion wasn't quite so great.

00:47:49 Aleksandra King: And therefore of the emotion– that's why, you know, when you meet someone that you really, you know, fall in love with– and there is the saying, when you know, you know– because it's the intensity of the emotion, yes. And all this nonsense about, wait– you have to wait approximately three weeks, or half a year, or one year, before you must get married, and don't you dare do it before– all that nonsense needs to go out the window, doesn't it? When you know, you know. It's just one of those things.

00:48:13 Robin Dunbar: But the– I mean, the problem is, you are at risk, always, of making a bad judgement, even so. Right? You might think they tick all the boxes, but actually, you haven't had enough experience. So what normally happens is– I mean, it's a weird thing, because you have to have this kind of rosy sunglasses effect, otherwise you wouldn't get off the fence.

00:48:37 Aleksandra King: Yes. Right.

00:48:38 Robin Dunbar: You've got to have something to make you get off the fence and go and talk to the person, and, you know, it's sort of, do you fancy a dance, or whatever, you know, in order to build a relationship. And that's not going to happen if you don't have this kind of– everything is– all your critical faculties are shut off, because what you see is a Greek god– or a Greek goddess. Right? But the rosier the sunglasses at that point, the longer the relationship will last, because it takes longer to rub the shine off the statue, as it were. Cuz in the course of life, you get a lot of ground-truthing that goes on, where, you know, they forget your birthday, they forget to turn up when they–

00:49:25 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:49:26 Robin Dunbar: – etc., etc., etc. Most of which you kind of forgive, initially, until it happens often enough– you say, that's it. But that ground-truthing becomes important. So it's a kind of weird split, as it were, between the need for this thing just to get you off the fence and go and make the relationship, which starts you off well, and the fact that you can get overcommitted. And where that comes out is in romantic scams on the internet. Cuz that's exactly how the scammers work. What they're playing on is that, if they don't allow you ever to meet them, you become more and more besotted with this avatar that you've created in your own mind, to the point where, when you finally meet them, it doesn't matter what they look like, or how badly they behave– you are so forgiving, it's unbelievable, and you just hand over all your money. But they play a very long game on that.

00:50:24 Aleksandra King: Because– well, that's a red flag, isn't it– them– yes. These are– I think, you know, people should normally show you who they are, and it happens relatively early on, and you've just got to pay attention, that when they do show you who they are– I see you for who you are.

00:50:38 Robin Dunbar: Well, it's back to this first four to six weeks after meeting somebody. You need to see them often, and frequently, in order to have enough experience of them, and kind of get a feel for what the real person beneath the shine is actually like.

00:50:58 Aleksandra King: Totally. Oh, it's quite fun, isn't it, all this stuff– all these things. So, we know the healthiest number now of friendships, and we know how important it is to spend time and invest and build trust, and we know about your number. So, your brain can maintain– or can't it– more than one intimate relationship at a time? You said up to five. What if you replaced all those friends, and then you had five intimate– I'm not planning to do this, I'm just asking for other people who are watching, who might want to do this. I have all kinds of people on my channel, you know. This is– we're now into consultants, you know– asking for the audience. Who would potentially– could you have five intimate relationships at the same time?

00:51:38 Robin Dunbar: I mean, really, not– not romantically intimate relationships.

00:51:42 Aleksandra King: Not– it seems not. Okay.

00:51:44 Robin Dunbar: Because what happens– at least in our data– when people claim to have two romantic relationships–

00:51:51 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:51:52 Robin Dunbar: – I'd say two sexual relationships– one always takes precedence over the other. So one is at the pole position of the inner core of five, and the other tends to be pushed down into the next layer.

00:52:10 Aleksandra King: And that tends to be the previous– so there's always the favourite. Anyway, it looks like– it looks like it's very difficult. And that's based on science.

00:52:16 Robin Dunbar: That's based on science. I mean, you can have pseudo-romantic relationships, or sexual relationships, with lots of people, but then they're not going to necessarily have the intimacy– and the emotional intimacy– of that inner core.

00:52:34 Aleksandra King: Mhm. Okay.

00:52:36 Robin Dunbar: And that's partly because– it probably is partly because the nature of sexual relationships have this intimacy and emotional component to it, and it makes it very difficult if anything goes wrong with a relationship. So if you're, you know, sort of stood up, as it were, by a partner, it is so destructive of your mental state, you want to break the relationship completely. So it either has to be slightly anonymous, it seems, or some sort of gradation, where you can keep a balance between your emotional commitment– cuz the problem is, your emotional commitment for relationships in general is limited. Right? You've only got–

00:53:26 Aleksandra King: And essentially, that means– choose wisely.

00:53:28 Robin Dunbar: Time. Yeah. Right? So you can choose to have lots of friends who are very weak friendships, or you can have a few strong ones, and some super weak.

00:53:40 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I find it totally exhausting to have lots of the shallow conversations. I find it so difficult– you know, the playground chat. It absolutely drains me of every cell in my body– I can't take it. So you go, hello, how are you doing– and then, with that, I find it exhausting. If I am going to talk to someone, I want it to be meaningful and deep, and I'll tell you the truth, and please tell me your truth, and then we can have that moment. And then it's nicer than– oh, actually, I prefer a huge crowd, and then I don't have any, like, responsibility to them, you know– I'm talking to them, but–

00:54:12 Robin Dunbar: So this is the kind of difference between introverts and extroverts. Because introverts seem to have– so basically, what's going on is, you're trying to manage this little group– this little inner clique of, you know, maybe only three, four or five people– who provide you with your deep emotional support, who, you know, when crisis happens, you know, they will drop everything to come and pick you up.

00:54:40 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

00:54:41 Robin Dunbar: All right? So, to keep them in the loop, you have to invest very heavily in them, and maintain the relationship. Of course, they are then having to do the same to you.

00:54:49 Aleksandra King: So it's a– I never thought about it like this, but it's an investment. Gosh.

00:54:54 Robin Dunbar: Now, what seems to happen is, introverts take a kind of risk-averse– so they really want to be sure that when disaster happens– and the problem is, you can't legislate for it– you know, it's too late to go and ask somebody to help you out in those sort of states of affairs, as it were, if you don't already have a relationship with them. You have to have set that up ahead of time– well ahead of time– for them to be willing to do it. So then, what they want to be sure is that the people they have in that little group really will do the job. So they'd rather have fewer of them, and invest more time in each one, and that means they have smaller networks. Whereas extroverts seem to trade on their social skills, as it were– social confidence– to handle weaker relationships. So their view is, well, you know, if Jemima turns me down, it won't help– I'll go and ask Amina.

00:55:50 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

00:55:51 Robin Dunbar: Because somebody will do it– somebody will do it. And then what they have is more friendships, so their social networks are bigger than 150, but the average emotional closeness is much weaker.

00:56:05 Aleksandra King: So you call that– are you saying that I'm an introvert? Because I'm– I don't know– now I'm worried.

00:56:14 Robin Dunbar: There's nothing wrong with being an introvert.

00:56:16 Aleksandra King: Well, I don't know– I'm a podcaster and all that sort of thing, I don't know. No, I mean, I did all those, like, Myers–Briggs things, and I've always been, like, a communicator, and I'm in sales, and I definitely not shy away from a crowd and all that sort of thing. It's just that these little chit-chat things– I find them slightly pointless. I mean, I know we have to do them, and I know why– I know that, obviously, you know, we have to do that– but it's just, it is exhausting. And then maybe I am a–

00:56:40 Robin Dunbar: Fine, fine. And I think it's more exhausting for introverts than it is for extroverts, cuz extroverts tend not to really– extroverts tend not to think about it– they're just operating in chat mode.

00:56:51 Aleksandra King: Well, kind of, yes. I mean– automatic mode.

00:56:55 Robin Dunbar: Open your mouth, things will come out. Whereas introverts tend to think more carefully about what they– well, that's what I think, cuz I'm an introvert too.

00:57:01 Aleksandra King: Yes. Okay. I don't know– I don't know what I am. An introvert-extrovert. It's confusing.

00:57:08 Robin Dunbar: Confusing.

00:57:08 Aleksandra King: So then, right, this one is a big one. Why do families fight so much, and so badly? Why? We're supposed to be tight. What's the problem?

00:57:17 Robin Dunbar: In general, they are very tight relationships, but the problem is– in the end, it comes back to this trust issue, primarily.

00:57:28 Robin Dunbar: The one thing that will cause relationship breakdown of any kind is a breakdown of trust. And that can be exaggerated by competition for resources within the family.

00:57:44 Aleksandra King: Like what?

00:57:45 Robin Dunbar: Like access to, I don't know, a particular– but let's say mum or dad as a source of support–

00:57:55 Aleksandra King: Dad's attention.

00:57:56 Robin Dunbar: – source of support.

00:57:58 Aleksandra King: How do you work on that?

00:57:59 Robin Dunbar: And ultimately, the big test case is when the parents die. That's when families fall apart, cuz they start arguing about who gets what. It's extremely common.

00:58:12 Aleksandra King: Extremely common.

00:58:14 Robin Dunbar: But, in general, that can happen at any time. And because you have these very close relationships– you spend a lot of time with these people– you're kind of much more attentive to how evenly balanced the relationship is. Are they getting more than me? Am I having to do all the work all the time? And, you know, those little niggles create sort of fracture lines, that eventually, if you get enough of them, cause terminal collapse. And what's interesting is– I mean, this probably doesn't apply to kind of your second cousins twice removed–

00:58:54 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:58:54 Robin Dunbar: – but, you know, that inner core of sort of siblings, parents, grandparents, whatever– cousins, maybe– when you fall out with them, it is catastrophic, almost always. These are deathbed reconciliations only, literally. Whereas with friendships– just said that– with friendships, when you fall out with them, you tend to just drift away from them. You just stop seeing them before you get to that point.

00:59:22 Aleksandra King: But I think, yeah, with this betrayal, trust, this emotional, raw stuff– it's tough to fix that.

00:59:27 Robin Dunbar: I think it's because you are, by definition, with any close relationship– whether it's a friend or a close family– you are more forgiving. So they stand you up once– oh, it's just Jim again, you know.

00:59:40 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:59:41 Robin Dunbar: And, yeah, he's always like that. But eventually, when it happens often enough, you kind of go, enough is enough. And at that point, it is terminal, because you've committed so much trust and emotion that you feel very let down. Whereas if a casual friend– and the same is true with, you know– it's what happens with romantic relationships, as it were, and divorces; it's what happens with best-friend relationships when they part company, for the same reason– and they are irreparable. Whereas somebody more distant, you just stop seeing them long before you get–

01:00:18 Aleksandra King: Yeah, it's not that deep– it's my teenager– it's not that deep.

01:00:21 Robin Dunbar: And that makes it easier, then, to reconcile, because, you know, they can, after a reasonable gap, try to repair the relationship in some way, and you're open to accepting it. But with these catastrophic relationship breakdowns, you've committed so much emotion to it, and feel so badly let down, that nothing is going to persuade you.

01:00:45 Aleksandra King: Investment– it hurts.

01:00:46 Robin Dunbar: Yes.

01:00:47 Aleksandra King: Well– but then also, is overinvestment–

01:00:49 Robin Dunbar: Overinvestment–

01:00:50 Aleksandra King: But is it also that, with our family and our, you know, our partner, whatever, we set the bar really high when it comes to trust, and the standards we expect from them– and, like, you cannot do this. And also the expectations of our parents– you're supposed to be like this, like this, like this– my sisters, brothers– you have to behave like that– partner– I expect all these golden standards. And the higher the standards, the bigger the drop.

01:01:11 Robin Dunbar: Yes, yes.

01:01:13 Aleksandra King: Wow. Yeah. Don't have standards, then?

01:01:15 Robin Dunbar: No– do have standards, please have standards.

01:01:18 Aleksandra King: Well– no, you know what it is– if they let you down, then, sorry, but it's like a–

01:01:21 Robin Dunbar: It's, you know– there are no absolutes in real life. Right? There are only tradeoffs. So you are free to– you know, if you want to set the bar very high, that's fine, because that will produce a very strong relationship. But the risk you run is that you're asking for perfection, where perfection can never exist, and therefore the relationship at some point may be put at risk of fracture. And that's because you expect a lot out of the relationship, and you're going to give a lot in return, as it were– the equation balances. Whereas with more casual friendships, you kind of don't expect quite so much attention to the detail. You know, if you invite them ten times too many– to your party, to the number of times they invite you to their parties– you kind of go, well, you know, they're just froth in the crowd– they make up the numbers, whatever, whatever– and you're more forgiving of it. And therefore, when they do something that upsets you, it's not usually a catastrophic upset– it's more, if you're going to behave like that, I'm not going to bother. And not going to bother means you don't pick up the phone to arrange to see them, and therefore you don't see each other, and the emotional quality of the friendship decays steadily with time, in a natural way.

01:02:56 Aleksandra King: Can I ask you something of the present phenomenon, which is called ghosting? I just think– I mean, I understand why people do it, but I just think it's so rude. I think it's so hurtful. It's so rude– I mean, just say you don't like it, you know. I spoke to The Apprentice winner the other day– you know, he's made a lot of money, sold his business– Lord, he's a busy guy, he's doing all these things, he's got so much going on. He doesn't ghost people. You know, when they send, you know, business– are you interested– no, thank you, I'm not, thanks for reaching out– not interested, not interested– takes a millisecond, boom, boom, boom, done. And he does that because, he said, you know, I'm a brand as well, and any interaction with me– I don't want to be the ghoster, I don't want to be the one that doesn't respond, I don't want to be that. And, yeah, I just– I had a– out of the five– I would put in the top 50– person I'd reach out to– I got ghosted. And I just thought– but it's so strange that you would have ghosted me. I just think– would you not have– it's just polite, it's manners.

01:03:55 Robin Dunbar: Yes. No, well, yes. And the whole point is that that's one of the key skills– the, you know– what keeps relationships going, what keeps communities going, organisations going, are the skills of diplomacy. Right? They're these abilities to understand how somebody else is seeing the situation, so I can kind of adjust how I interact with you in a way that keeps you in the loop, rather than putting you off, and, you know, sort of messing you about. This ability to inhibit, you know, your natural instincts to, you know, emotionally jump to conclusions, as it were– the red mist rising, you know– those skills, and this ability simply to be courteous to people. Right? Because that's exactly the kind of thing that undermines trust. You know, if you just don't answer– naturally, you kind of go, what have I done?

01:05:00 Aleksandra King: But, you know, I can understand why some people don't answer as well, because it's also effort– investment– and difficult and uncomfortable to say no to someone. You might be scared to say no to them, so you'd rather just–

01:05:11 Robin Dunbar: But there's also a situation– I mean, one of the problems at the moment, created by the internet, essentially, and social media, is we just get overwhelmed all the time with contacts, you know. So the scale of it is– in the days when we wrote letters, you would write a letter to somebody saying, can you tell me about something or other– maybe ask for some information– they would send it back, and you might send a note back which just says, thanks very much. End of the story. Now, with email, you feel a compulsion to reply to every reply, so you end up, sort of, meaningless replies, in a chain that takes up time.

01:05:55 Aleksandra King: Apologies to interject with, but– to say, oh, can I add that to your calendar now, can we add– when– would you like us to schedule a meeting– today, in 15 minutes– I go, oh no, please, God.

01:06:04 Robin Dunbar: Exactly, exactly. But I think that's what causes a lot of, if you like, the ghosting– is that. And I know I do it all the time– if somebody emails and asks a question, and you kind of go, well, I don't know what the answer is–

01:06:20 Aleksandra King: Yes.

01:06:20 Robin Dunbar: – I need to think about it, but, you know– and you park it. And then the problem is, you forget about it, and you come across it about two months later, and you're like, oh my God.

01:06:29 Aleksandra King: It's understandable, it's understandable. But I was saying that in that top-50 crowd, you know– the one where, like, it's someone that you know, and you've interacted with, and you might have done business with them or whatever– that then becomes– that's actually not–

01:06:41 Robin Dunbar: Yeah, yeah, that's a little bit– I mean, if you think about it in terms of, historically, as it were– you know, if you go back 100 years, everybody lived in small villages of a couple of hundred people. Everybody knew everybody else. Everybody was in everybody's 150–

01:06:57 Aleksandra King: They just orientated differently. Yes.

01:07:00 Robin Dunbar: Right? So most of the time, you had enough capacity to manage the relationships you had. Now, what happens is, we move so much– you know, you grow up here, you go to university there, you get your first job somewhere else, you move after a few years to a different city or different country– and you end up with little pockets of people. So what you're accumulating is not 150 people who are relatively stable, as used to be the case, but you're getting– in effect, your 150 is being pushed up to almost 1,500 people.

01:07:37 Aleksandra King: Gosh. Yeah. And you're not able to cope with that.

01:07:38 Robin Dunbar: You just don't have the time.

01:07:39 Aleksandra King: It's very– we haven't evolved– we haven't evolved to that. We have to keep evolving.

01:07:45 Robin Dunbar: Right. Well, the problem is– the problem is time. Time is fixed, you know– you can't create time. Because each relationship has its own time demand, depending on the emotional closeness– which layer they're in. That dictates how much time you have to invest, cuz if you don't invest that time, that relationship will decay, inexorably.

01:08:10 Aleksandra King: Yes.

01:08:10 Robin Dunbar: It takes about two years of not seeing a person for them to move from, say, your 15 layer– so a good, regular social friend– to become just an acquaintance– somebody I once knew.

01:08:24 Aleksandra King: That's frightening.

01:08:26 Robin Dunbar: That's if you don't see them at all.

01:08:28 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Right.

01:08:28 Robin Dunbar: Which is what tends to happen– you know, if you think about your experience. You went away to university somewhere, you had a certain group of people you did stuff with, and then you all parted company, went different parts of the world. Right? And some of them, you tried– made a big effort– to keep up with, and they tended to be the one or two platonic close friends. But the others, you kind of feel very guilty about not keeping up with, but you just don't have time, cuz you're meeting all these other new people.

01:08:58 Robin Dunbar: And so they kind of gradually get pushed–

01:09:01 Aleksandra King: Yes– do take you out, put you in– yeah, yeah.

01:09:05 Robin Dunbar: And then, you know, that means you're squeezing your time availability– somebody has to go.

01:09:11 Aleksandra King: Someone has to go, yeah.

01:09:12 Robin Dunbar: Right. And eventually– you don't intend to push them out–

01:09:14 Aleksandra King: Actually, I quite like that, cuz I don't like hoarding, you know.

01:09:17 Robin Dunbar: Yeah, well–

01:09:18 Aleksandra King: Like that– refreshing. It's not bad, it's a good concept. But let's talk about, you know, this thing– there's a lot of talk about people being infectious– you know, people rubbing off on you. So one of the reasons why I've got this podcast is because I want to rub off on the wider planet in a very lovely, positive– and, come on, let's do this, so we can really, like, make change and do stuff, yeah? You know, positive mindset, and interviewing the right people, with the right messaging, and that kind of thing. And I love spending time with people like you, because it's just wonderful– you know, you're just filled with all this knowledge, and it's a good influence, you know– and I hope that I'm radiating some positive energy towards you. But then you've got toxic people– you really do– yes– negative, damaging, not the right agenda. How do you deal with it? Like, is that– have they always existed, or has this– have they become a thing in today's modern age? How do you deal with them– everything about these toxic people, and what do you do?

01:10:19 Robin Dunbar: They've always existed.

01:10:21 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

01:10:24 Robin Dunbar: Usually, historically, in the past, they tend to be people with psychopathic traits. Right? And all small-scale societies have problems with these people, because they're very destructive.

01:10:39 Aleksandra King: So they're biologically different? As in, they've got, like, what– because, like, psychopaths have extra chromosomes, or things like–

01:10:45 Robin Dunbar: Extra chromosomes– they just tend to have different alleles. So they tend to be very poor on the capacity to inhibit action. Right? And so, rather than hanging back and making a considered view– so you think about it in, you know, in a playground sense. So there you all are, in the sandpit of life–

01:11:08 Aleksandra King: Sandpit of life– I love it.

01:11:09 Robin Dunbar: – people are running up and down– kids are running up and down– and, you know, one of them kicks sand in your face. All right? So what a psychopath would do is, he goes and sorts the kid out. All right? Because he assumes that it was malicious. Whereas the sensible person– social person, if you like– will sit back for a moment and go, was that an accident or not? All right? And the right way to behave depends on whether it was an accident, or whether it was done deliberately. All right? If it's an accident, you've got to forgive them and forget it, you know. If they did it deliberately, maybe you sort them out, whatever. But those kind of skills of diplomacy, that allow you to keep a group functioning, you know, are very difficult to maintain in the context where somebody is constantly behaving as a psychopath. And they tend to be pretty violent people. And in small-scale, tribal societies, they tend to be people who are, you know, responsible for a lot of homicides– quite literally. And most of these small-scale societies live in fear of these people, because they're so destructive– never mind the personal risk they run– they're just destructive of the community. And your whole ability to survive depends on the community being cooperative and coordinated. So what happens in the end, usually, is the community gangs up against them– they get them drunk on Saturday night, and sort them out forever. All right? Or they get blamed for witchcraft, and then they get strung up for being witches. So that's extremely common in these small-scale–

01:12:54 Aleksandra King: Yeah. So there's the extreme– there's the homicide ones– but then there's also, you know, the Patrick Bateman, you know– all that kind of thing. But then there's ones that are just, you know– they exist, and they just– I don't know if it's hurt people hurt people, or what it is– but they see the world in a negative way, and so they respond negatively, and they cause– manipulate–

01:13:19 Robin Dunbar: Yeah.

01:13:20 Aleksandra King: – cause trouble.

01:13:21 Robin Dunbar: This is what they call the dark triad. Psychopaths, narcissists, and exploiters– Machiavellian people.

01:13:29 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Yes, those guys. You know, we all know one or two.

01:13:36 Robin Dunbar: And, for the better or worse, they're the rich tapestry of social life that we have to deal with. But– members of the tapestry– you're right, that, you know, life can't run smoothly if there are a lot of them. That's why they tend to be rather rare.

01:13:56 Aleksandra King: Yes.

01:13:56 Robin Dunbar: Otherwise it would be totally destructive. And whether they're– there's clearly some kind of genetic process going on. They're often associated with what's known as the warrior gene–

01:14:12 Aleksandra King: Oh, okay.

01:14:13 Robin Dunbar: – in the brain, which is one of the genes associated with bits of the brain. But it is tied up very much with this inability to inhibit. You know, they just are selfish, basically– grab things off the plate–

01:14:25 Aleksandra King: Grab things off the plate– doesn't matter if you don't get any.

01:14:30 Robin Dunbar: And, you know, if that becomes very destructive– either of your wellbeing and relationships, or the community's relationships– somehow it has to get sorted out.

01:14:44 Aleksandra King: Mm.

01:14:45 Robin Dunbar: And, you know, in small-scale societies, you just– you know, you got banished, or you got killed.

01:14:53 Aleksandra King: I mean, there's movies about people like that all the time. And in a way, they've got a– so you can sort of almost feel sorry for them, cuz you want them to have a friend, and you think, why are you harming yourself all the time? Why are you acting like–

01:15:03 Robin Dunbar: Completely. In the modern industrial world, we have these enormous communities– the point is, they have places to hide. If you live in small villages, as we've done for, you know, sort of, since time immemorial– long before history, until very recently– I mean, I think Rome was the first city to have a million people, and that was 2,000 years ago, only. Right? So we've not lived in these very large communities for very long, so we kind of don't have the skills to handle them, basically. But in small-scale communities, you know, it is so destructive that you can't tolerate it, and you have to have some fairly, you know, ultimate, violent solutions, otherwise everybody just gets overwhelmed. In the kind of modern world, where the world actually consists mostly of strangers, these people have places to hide. And that's why, you know, sort of– what you get in villages is communal policing.

01:16:12 Aleksandra King: Mhm. Right. I like that– communal policing.

01:16:15 Robin Dunbar: People take a responsibility for dealing with, or pacifying, or sorting out– in the nicest possible way– people who are troublesome, you know. And they police each other's kids, and make sure they behave and don't become destructive. But once you get above about 150 people in an organisation– whether it's a village, or an organisation, or a business– there is a loss of a sense of willingness to police. Because what happens in a village is, you know– I behave badly on Saturday night at the village dance, you decide to say something to me, and I go, oh, Aleksandra, terribly sorry, that was really appalling, I won't do it again.

01:17:02 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

01:17:02 Robin Dunbar: But if we're living in, you know, an enormous modern city of 10 million people, my response to your trying to explain to me that my behaviour is shockingly bad is– and who do you think you are?

01:17:19 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

01:17:20 Robin Dunbar: Right? Well, I don't owe you any obligation– you know, by what right do you– that's why we have to end up having a police force.

01:17:26 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Right.

01:17:27 Robin Dunbar: Who's in some sense neutral. Whereas in small communities, the community acts as its own police force. And especially because of the kind of generational, hierarchical structure. Because sitting at the back of the village, somewhere, is great-grandma, by her turf fire, wagging her finger–

01:17:47 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

01:17:47 Robin Dunbar: – you know, and she's maintaining the peace, because all the great-grandchildren– who are all your second cousins– are all equally valuable to her.

01:17:58 Aleksandra King: Right. Yes.

01:17:59 Robin Dunbar: So don't you go upsetting little Jimmy–

01:18:03 Aleksandra King: Yes.

01:18:03 Robin Dunbar: – because, you know, he's one of my great-grandchildren too.

01:18:07 Aleksandra King: Right. Yes.

01:18:08 Robin Dunbar: So you have this kind of very neat, in some ways, internal structurings, which are based on relationships. So you take great-granny seriously, cuz you like her, probably–

01:18:22 Aleksandra King: Or she's very fierce.

01:18:23 Robin Dunbar: They come in two varieties, yes. And also, she's backed up–

01:18:28 Aleksandra King: Yes.

01:18:28 Robin Dunbar: – by the older generations. Right? So she can, you know– individuals can impose discipline, and we accept that discipline out of the sense of obligation, because we have meaningful relationships. It's when our relationships with each other are neutral– we have no relationship, cuz they're strangers– we don't really– I don't have any obligation to you. That's when you start getting sink-estate problems.

01:18:57 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I think the individual speaking up and maintaining the standards is important, yeah. I'll just tell you something very quickly– someone littered the other day in the countryside, on a route that I run on religiously, and I just saw him– and he threw a little sushi box into the thing, and I just sort of stopped, and I picked it up, and I gave it to him– that's yours, cuz we don't litter in the countryside. And I ran off, and he just sort of looked at me. But I think he won't want to do that again.

01:19:24 Robin Dunbar: No.

01:19:25 Aleksandra King: And I might get into trouble one day for doing that, but I would– but I– you know–

01:19:29 Robin Dunbar: That's why people stop doing it, cuz most of the time–

01:19:32 Aleksandra King: Even because I would be angry with myself if I didn't say anything. And I think– I want that– I want that standard maintained in that countryside, full stop. That's it. Like, you don't come into this countryside and litter here, ever.

01:19:44 Robin Dunbar: Yeah. But it depends on the wider community having that sense of obligation, and, you know, that you're not just being nasty and abusive and rude by pointing this out.

01:19:58 Aleksandra King: Because he likes the countryside– he's there enjoying it– he wants to enjoy– he's part of the community too.

01:20:04 Robin Dunbar: And that works fine. But the problem is when our relationships become utterly anonymous–

01:20:09 Aleksandra King: Mhm.

01:20:09 Robin Dunbar: – then you have scope for people who are essentially psychopaths and selfish to go, I'm not going to take that from you.

01:20:19 Aleksandra King: Yeah, I know. Then you're in trouble.

01:20:20 Robin Dunbar: You're in trouble, and you're in big trouble. And that's why people stop kind of acting as good citizens.

01:20:29 Aleksandra King: Mhm. Yeah. Mhm.

01:20:31 Robin Dunbar: And it can become literally dangerous– or can become very dangerous– when you go to the aid of somebody being attacked– you go to the aid of an innocent person– and, you know, the police often say afterwards, don't do it–

01:20:46 Robin Dunbar: – ring for us, that's what we're here for. It's a quandary. But it's part of the fact that there aren't simple solutions in life. The real world is complicated– particularly the social world. The human social world is probably the most complicated thing in the universe– partly because it's completely unpredictable, and partly because it involves so many different dimensions. Each person is a dimension. So you're not dealing with a kind of one-dimensional universe, which is just you– you're dealing with, you know, sort of 500 individuals, each of whom has their own interest, and it just becomes impossible to manage. So you end up having to engage in compromises. So everything in real life becomes a kind of compromise, and a tradeoff. And how important the tradeoff is to you will determine what your solution–

01:21:47 Aleksandra King: Yeah, there's the negotiable and non-negotiable– all that kind of thing. I could talk to you for hours and hours, and I've got more questions, but I'm going to condense the most important things, cuz we have limited time now. What's the best tip that you can give– you know, if we want to improve our social connections, have better friends, be closer? Is it singing, dancing with them, gossiping with them– what is it? How do we– what's the tip, for everyone?

01:22:15 Robin Dunbar: Well, I think the answer comes down to the mechanisms we use for fast-tracking friendships, which are a set of behaviours that I refer to as our social toolkit. And these are laughter, singing, dancing, rituals– and in the normal world, the rituals of religion in particular– feasting– eating and drinking together, socially– and storytelling. And all of those help to create a sense of community. But of those, by far the best is singing. We always refer to singing as the icebreaker effect, cuz we've shown choral singing– so singing together, right– community singing– I mean, I don't mean, you know, Bach cantatas or something fancy, I just mean old folk songs around the campfire. And what we've shown is, you can take a bunch of complete strangers, give them an hour's community singing together– sort of Gareth Malone, you know, community singing, the old songs that everybody knows– an hour of that, and they'll come out of it feeling as though they've known each other since they were at primary school. It's absolutely incredible how fast that is. And nothing– nothing else works as fast as that. And you actually haven't interacted with anybody– what you've done is stood in a circle, or maybe a line, and sang. But you've been singing in synchrony with each other– highly synchronised– and singing triggers the endorphin system, which is what provides the emotional– raw feels– component to relationships. And it does it very, very fast– much faster than anything else. Second best thing is probably eating together.

01:24:01 Aleksandra King: But yeah– eating– going out together. So singing– why we do– you know, we do– you arrange dinner parties, or podcasts.

01:24:08 Robin Dunbar: Or podcasts, indeed.

01:24:09 Aleksandra King: One– so, Robin, it has been so lovely having you, and hopefully we'll do a part two– get through the rest of the questions.

01:24:15 Robin Dunbar: A great privilege.

01:24:16 Aleksandra King: So much– thank you.

01:24:24 Robin Dunbar: Mhm.