Inside the Savage Reality of The Apprentice | Adam Hosker

Cold open

00:00:00 Aleksandra King: Adam Hosker– oh, Adam Hosker. This interview gets into the dirty detail of how low The Apprentice can go. Katie Hopkins– who, you will remember, didn't like a certain person a lot on her time on The Apprentice– Adam Hosker. The two of them, it's safe to say, despise each other. Adam now has his say– and revenge– on Katie Hopkins.

Interview

00:00:35 Aleksandra King: Welcome to Beyond the Boardroom podcast, where we discuss all things Apprentice and beyond. You've had some controversial moments on the show. You were a contestant on season 3–

00:00:47 Adam Hosker: Yes.

00:00:47 Aleksandra King: –of BBC's The Apprentice, which aired in 2007. There was some serious rivalry between you and Katie Hopkins. We'll talk about her.

00:00:55 Adam Hosker: Yeah.

00:00:56 Aleksandra King: How would you introduce yourself? You have 30 seconds.

00:00:59 Adam Hosker: I've been– as a salesperson or a sales leader for the last– pretty much since The Apprentice, and I've always worked in industries where I'm really interested in the products and I'm really passionate about it. So I've gone from the motor industry into technology– particularly artificial intelligence and analytics and insights– and I get to [unclear: work?] with some really exciting brands– like, globally– all manner of brands– fashion and consumer products and that kind of thing. At the moment it's– yeah, it's fun.

00:01:23 Aleksandra King: That's actually perfect timing– that's literally 30– [unclear]. You didn't really want that– a media train– good, you are properly media trained.

00:01:34 Adam Hosker: No–

00:01:34 Aleksandra King: Because it is– it's like public speaking training– you've got to know when you're on that 30-second mark. So why did you agree to do this podcast with me?

00:01:40 Adam Hosker: Part of the reason I did The Apprentice is because I was a fan, so I've obviously watched a lot of the other series. There are definitely series that I've missed over the years, but– no, I remember yours. There– you and Fran were two of the contestants I liked. And then you were just like– yeah, no, I've had enough, I'm out– [unclear: can't make] me do anything I don't want to do.

00:02:02 Aleksandra King: Okay– yeah– no– I just– yeah. Is podcasting something– I know you've got your own podcast– but is it something you want to do now, and you like it? You're obviously not a shy–

00:02:10 Adam Hosker: Yeah. I think it's a case of using skills that you've got, right? So I'd make music videos as a hobby, so I've got these, like, skills as far as making content's concerned. And as far as the way that I do my job– as far as reaching out to new customers and that kind of thing– some of those people end up becoming customers, some don't. But I just think– rather than sending out 200 emails a day, like a lot of people do in sales, I'd much rather have a conversation. But I think the thing that people forget in sales is– it doesn't start with a lead, it starts with a conversation. And when I really drilled that down and thought about it, and thought– what's the best way to have a conversation in this day and age, what's the most beneficial thing– with the podcast–

00:02:55 Aleksandra King: Cos when you're on camera and everything, it's like– it's a vulnerable place to be. And I tell you– like, having done this now quite a bit– I've noticed that anyone who's brave enough– and I do use the word brave– it's quite interesting– because you do have to be brave, you do have to be pretty confident in yourself to sit there and have someone asking you questions– especially if you've not seen the questions– which you haven't.

00:03:20 Adam Hosker: So– [unclear: it takes] guts. Maybe I'm naive sometimes, but– yeah– I don't know– I just– I like having conversations with people. It's why I'm a salesperson, it's why I went on The Apprentice. I like to try new things, I'm not scared of giving things a go, and I have this really weird ability to look at something and think– I could probably do that. So yeah– maybe a little bit of overconfidence sometimes.

00:03:42 Aleksandra King: We'll see, we'll see. We'll start with something nice. No, but your mum said something so nice about you on your [unclear: file?]–

00:03:52 Adam Hosker: Oh my god.

00:03:53 Aleksandra King: She's so– well– she's spoken about how, when you were 9 years old– from nine– you were really into business, and you cleaned cars and you did the paper rounds and you sold programmes– you did all this stuff– you were always keen on making money. There was always– even in the rain– like, unpleasant situations where everyone wants to go home and snuggle up– you were like, no, let's make money. So your family is pretty, like, supportive of you?

00:04:14 Adam Hosker: I would say– and shocked half the time with the things that–

00:04:19 Aleksandra King: Really?

00:04:20 Adam Hosker: Yeah– my mum always says she's no idea where I got it from. But yeah– I grew up in a small mill town in the north, in Blackburn. There's not a whole lot of opportunity in a place like that– there certainly wasn't in the 80s, growing up. My mum's a nurse– we certainly weren't well off. And I think– I was that kid that always wanted something. I wanted the new Matchbox car, I wanted the new computer. And I remember my stepdad just saying– you better go out and get yourself a paper round and earn some money– and if you earn half the amount– I can't remember what the thing was–

00:04:47 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:04:48 Adam Hosker: I don't remember what the thing was I wanted at the time– but he said, if you earn half, then we'll buy it for you.

00:04:51 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:04:52 Adam Hosker: So yeah– I went out cleaning cars on the estate that we lived on, and got a paper round.

00:04:57 Aleksandra King: What I liked as well about what your mum said is she never had to worry about you. And as a mum– like, I've got three kids– that's just– that's just amazing. She just– you were independent from day– from 9 years old.

00:05:07 Adam Hosker: Yeah, from really young. But I think– I've thought about this a lot over the years– and I think, cos I had a stepdad, and I'm mixed race– so I guess from being really young I always felt like I was one out on my own.

00:05:21 Aleksandra King: Where's your mum from, and your dad?

00:05:23 Adam Hosker: So my mum is English-Irish– yeah– born in Blackburn. My natural dad– or biological dad– is from Morocco. They broke up when I was super young– I was still a baby when they broke up. And then my stepdad– he's from Malawi, and his dad's from India. So, like, my family [unclear: photos?] growing up, with like the United Colours of Benetton adverts. But yeah– I think it's super interesting, having that kind of diversity. When you're mixed race, you feel sometimes like you don't belong in any camp– you [unclear: float?] around everything– and I think that just made me think a little bit differently, and it made me independent really early. And I think, going through school, and some of the bullying that I got from all angles– I realised at one point that no matter what I did, everybody had a problem with it. So it didn't matter what I did– I just did my own thing, and I've just been singing my own tune ever since, really.

00:06:16 Aleksandra King: So you didn't let it beat you down– in a way, you were just a bit like– no–

00:06:19 Adam Hosker: I was just like– that's me– doesn't matter what I do– so I'll do what I want to do. I'd rather fail at something I want to do than try and keep people happy, I guess. I've never necessarily, like, followed specific fashion trends or music trends– like, the music that I'm into is broad-ranging. I've always had friends that are very different as well– friends that I had at high school had disabilities, had different sexual preferences, at a time when that really wasn't as accepted as it is today. A couple– yeah, a couple of my friends have always commented, like– I always seem to find the freaks and weirdos. But I really like the freaks and weirdos– like, I work with a lot of musicians now as a hobby– and yeah–

00:06:58 Aleksandra King: And I think you'd put them into some of that sort of, like, different category.

00:07:02 Adam Hosker: I think I've always– I've always admired difference in people– standing on two feet and not just trying to follow.

00:07:07 Aleksandra King: The creatives as well– yeah– yeah, I love creatives– they just– they think differently, don't they? Are you proud of where you're from– do you have that sort of inner sort of pride, and you care about where you're from, and you want to learn about the cultures and you want to talk about them? Or is it a bit like– yeah– what's your attitude to it?

00:07:24 Adam Hosker: I think I'm super proud of being from where I'm from, but I'm also proud of busting through a few of those glass ceilings of– kind of– the expectations of somebody that would have been born where I was born, went to the kind of school that I went to. I've been quite happy to push through that, but I've always felt really rooted in that. But also, I think– I am– I'm drawn to difference, often. I am really drawn to people that think different– that– like artists, musicians– like, that's just something that– I just– I find people fascinating. Again– probably the reason I do the podcast I do, and the reason I work in sales. When I go and see a customer, I'm just asking them about everything– not just the business– about them, about the family. I just find people fascinating, really.

00:08:11 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I– listen– I love sales as well. But, like– when there's a customer, a client, whoever it is– and I'm just being honest now– for me it's– yes, they could be very nice, they might not be nice, or whatever. But it's like– when I sell, what I think about– and I become almost– that's my thing– I become obsessed with it– is whether what I'm giving them is something that's going to really help them.

00:08:39 Adam Hosker: Oh yeah– that's it.

00:08:41 Aleksandra King: That's– and I almost– I have to, in my own brain, separate their personality– because I almost feel like, if I let that get involved, I'm getting distracted. So I almost don't– it's really weird– yeah, I almost don't think about it. It's like a different approach– but I wish I was a little bit more– yeah–

00:08:59 Adam Hosker: I'm probably the other extreme– yeah– to the point where, if I don't like somebody, I probably don't want to work with them. Like– I have definitely been to meetings, certainly in the earlier part of my career– or had customers when I was selling cars– where I was just like– this person's an absolute– like– the– yeah–

00:09:23 Aleksandra King: I actually also found that the customers that were really hard work, that I didn't get on with– we never made any money out of them– there's always problems.

00:09:31 Adam Hosker: And the ones that I got on with, we made margin– we made good money– but also I made some friends along the way with it as well. And– I don't know– I think I've always struggled to separate work Adam and private Adam. Yeah– there is really a very blurred line between it– like, it encroaches on both areas.

00:09:54 Aleksandra King: So I'm completely– I'm, like, total opposite of this. So I have a work mode where– [unclear] to describe it– that is my work mode, and I'm going to do everything in that way. And I almost– it is like a bit of an obsession– and I have a goal, and I will do that. And then I have my at-home– more chilled. And in work I'm extroverted, and at home I'm a bit more–

00:10:18 Adam Hosker: Yeah– I certainly have a goal, I certainly have that drive to win a deal. But also, I really do look at if someone's going to need the products even before I go and speak to them. So there's usually– there's a drive and the passion there to do that. But one of my best friends, Simon– I met him when he bought a car from me. I've got a bunch of customers that I met– if I ever do eventually get married, there's probably eight or nine customers that will be on the invites to the wedding.

00:10:46 Aleksandra King: Nice.

00:10:46 Adam Hosker: But it just– it makes your day easy, doesn't it– if you get on with the people that you're– okay, like, you're an account manager for them or something– but if the nice people that you get on with, that you want to spend time with– you want to take them out for a meal and that kind of–

00:11:01 Aleksandra King: You don't want it– you don't want– sometimes you might have a client, though, that they're just awkward personalities, and maybe they're not necessarily the people that you want to hang out with. But I almost feel like– for me, again– I have to take the personality out, and I look at– what are you offering to the world? What's your product that you're offering to the universe, and do I believe it– like you were saying– do I buy into that? Do I want to spend my energy helping you promote that– yes or no? And if it's yes– you're doing really– I actually– I'm on board, and I'll even go and seek out the companies that I think– I love it– I want to be involved– please can I be involved– cos I want to champion that thing. But if they're doing something corrupt, or they're selling some stuff that I don't like, or cheap, dangerous materials, or the quality is not there– they're trying to skimp– any hint of that, I'm gone.

00:11:50 Adam Hosker: Yeah. I've still never sold anything to a company that makes tobacco products, or–

00:11:55 Aleksandra King: Good– good for you.

00:11:56 Adam Hosker: –anything that's controversial.

00:11:58 Aleksandra King: But I can understand that. Right– boardroom.

00:12:02 Adam Hosker: Yeah.

00:12:02 Aleksandra King: What was it like in the boardroom for you?

00:12:05 Adam Hosker: Do you know what– probably– yeah, I've probably said the boardroom is one of the most stressful things I've ever done. And I think it's really great now that I'm at a point where I can talk about the production side of things.

00:12:19 Aleksandra King: Juicy.

00:12:21 Adam Hosker: I think the way the production works– and for your listeners or viewers– the way that day works when you're in the boardroom: you get up super early, you get ready, and you do interviews to camera about the task that's just happened– but you're kept completely separate from all the other candidates the whole time– the whole day. You're then taken to the studio– you're not allowed to talk to each other in the car, because they want everything to come out in the boardroom– so, fair– but it creates this pressure cooker. So then you get put in a green room– everybody's there– nobody can talk to each other. Everybody has a runner– like a production assistant– that follows them everywhere– literally takes you to the toilet and stands at the door.

00:12:58 Aleksandra King: So that's no talking to anyone yet.

00:13:00 Adam Hosker: Yeah. So you spend about three or four hours before you even go into the boardroom, just mulling things over– and the stress levels just increase and increase. And then you go into the boardroom– and Alan Sugar's a very sharp man. The assistants at the time– Nick Hewer and Margaret– now, I loved Margaret– and Margaret was very smart, very intuitive– Nick, not so much– but the three of them were formidable in the way they were going to ask questions. There's always a chance that you're going to go– it's a bit of a lottery.

00:13:31 Aleksandra King: And everybody's at each other, aren't they? So it's just– I just found it– they [unclear: rip it?] to each other.

00:13:36 Adam Hosker: And then I had– I think it was five boardrooms back to back.

00:13:39 Aleksandra King: Oh– it's exhausting.

00:13:40 Adam Hosker: Yeah. So the only time you really get any time off is if you win the task and you're going and get to do– you don't get dragged into the bottom three.

00:13:47 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:13:47 Adam Hosker: So I was in the bottom three, like, five times in a row.

00:13:50 Aleksandra King: So– poor soul– that–

00:13:53 Adam Hosker: By the last one I was like– do you know what– just send me– all I need is a [unclear: steak?], a bottle of wine and a sleep.

00:13:58 Aleksandra King: Yeah– god– god– yes– no– it's awful, it's awful. So did you find Sugar quite scary, then– the Lord Sugar?

00:14:05 Adam Hosker: I wouldn't say scary– I just think he's very sharp. He– for the information he has, he doesn't really miss a beat, and you can see that his mind works incredibly quickly– so you can't really pull the wool over his eyes. He's just very astute– he just is a formidable operator. But also difficult to read. I'd probably say that I'm pretty good at reading people most of the time, and form a bit of a relationship– but he was just difficult. Yeah– I found him quite hard to read. I didn't really know where it was going some of the times– I thought I'd been [unclear: fired?] the three episodes leading up to me actually going. Did you find something different?

00:14:47 Aleksandra King: Yeah– I think he's quite an open book, I do. I think– you can see it on his face, I think. But maybe– I don't know– maybe it's female intuition or something– I could sense what he was thinking. I could also sense when he was uncomfortable. I wish that I could have access to footage that didn't make it to the [unclear: air?]–

00:15:11 Adam Hosker: Yeah– me too.

00:15:14 Aleksandra King: God– love– I'd make a whole 'nother thing. But we won't go there– we'll go to Katie Hopkins. So Katie Hopkins appeared alongside you in season 3, and for people that don't know– she is a very controversial, polarising figure, who has since become pretty famous in the UK for her right-wing, controversial views, and her sharp tongue. And she's wound a lot of people up around the country– she's also got quite a big fan base.

00:15:43 Adam Hosker: Yeah.

00:15:44 Aleksandra King: She's been cancelled on certain shows, hasn't she–

00:15:49 Adam Hosker: And entire platforms.

00:15:50 Aleksandra King: And entire platforms– but then brought back. And– unfortunately– you were met with her– and there's something between the two of you– your personalities– don't quite know what it is– but the two of you despise each other.

00:16:07 Adam Hosker: It's super simple–

00:16:08 Aleksandra King: No swearing– okay?

00:16:09 Adam Hosker: Well– I'll do my best not to swear.

00:16:11 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:16:12 Adam Hosker: And probably in the interviews that I did post-Apprentice, I held back quite a lot.

00:16:18 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:16:18 Adam Hosker: And perhaps part of that was some aspirations that I had to maybe do other things with the BBC at the time– which went by the wayside– and– but yeah– I think–

00:16:29 Aleksandra King: Before you answer me– right– before you answer me, I'm going to put out some of the things she said about you.

00:16:35 Adam Hosker: Go.

00:16:36 Aleksandra King: I hope you'll be okay.

00:16:38 Adam Hosker: It's a long time since– since this has happened.

00:16:40 Aleksandra King: This is quoting her. So– she called you a negative soul. Cocky. Arrogant. She said you have one speed setting– which is– slow. She said as well that she wanted to secure your exit out of the process, so that you can go back to your northern chums. That's pretty rude. What are your thoughts?

00:17:04 Adam Hosker: Katie spent hours writing little sound bites to insult people– not just– you– me and other people. The majority of it wasn't really founded in reality– I think perhaps some of the things in the edit backed up some of the things. The speed setting thing– I do talk quite slow– it's a northern accent. But the interesting thing about what she was doing is– she particularly picked out myself and Kristina, who ended up in the final– and she was just really trying to pick holes out of the people she saw as competition. So from that point of view, you could say– in a game– quite clever. As far as a person– and the reason that we clashed– it's super simple– we had a really big row. I was absolutely furious. The other thing that happened– after that– was a conversation in the back of the car, where I said– I find it astounding that– that you– some of the things that you're saying– but I also find the way you talk reminds me of an intelligence officer. And she said– what would you know about that? And I said– I trained with the Royal Navy, to be a warfare officer. And she looked at me and went– you're working class– how could you have done anything with the military at officer level? You're working class. And it's something that I talked about a little bit at the time– that perception that I had really seems to come to the fore in more recent years. The more time's gone on, the more she– yeah– but the more she stayed in the media– it wasn't just me feeling that at the time– she's come out and said these things.

00:18:40 Aleksandra King: Do you feel vindicated in some way– that you've said that?

00:18:44 Adam Hosker: My grandfather always used to say that there's no point responding to somebody who's a horrible person, because eventually everybody will figure it out. So I did sit back and let [unclear: her hang herself]. And there was a time where– measurably– you could say she was more successful. She was still on TV– she was doing the ITV morning show, she was doing a radio show with one of the London radio stations. And I bumped into [unclear: her] in the K West, and said– you don't want to speak? And I– no, not really. And then there was– I can't remember the exact wording– but the part of the conversation was– you're just jealous, cos I'm doing better than you. And I just said– and I said that– it's a marathon, okay? The race isn't over yet. And then you fast-forward to today– and I went off and did what I did– I didn't go chasing media things– I've been working my backside off as a salesperson in tech companies, and I'm happy with the progress that I've made– happy– I've done– thank god– we'll see what I say today, but maybe the extreme right might cancel– but they're welcome to, because that's not really the way that I view the world.

00:19:49 Aleksandra King: But you can have different views politically, or whatever– but yeah– there is a way that you don't treat people. Yeah, but there's, like– but then there's extreme political views, isn't there?

00:19:58 Adam Hosker: I have friends that would consider themselves to be more conservative in their leanings, and I've got friends that would consider themselves to be very liberal in their leanings– and I like a conversation the best. I think one of the saddest things about society now is– it's polar opposites, and the two never meet and never discuss anything. Because I think– the more that I travel– and I'm mostly just travelling around Europe– but wherever I go, people are the same. They speak a different language, there's some cultural differences– but I'm always interested in, like, the different foods that people eat, the different music that people listen to, the different way they view the world. Like– when you go out there and you meet people, you find that we're all– we're all pretty much the same. We want our families to be safe and happy, we want our children to have opportunities, we want to live a good life. Now– whether it's people in Israel, Palestine, Russia, the Ukraine, France, Germany– we're all the same. And when I meet people like [unclear: Katie] that feel that they are better than other people who are from a different place– I just find them super misguided. And– yeah– so– yeah– I think just intrinsically, as a person, she just– I felt like a lot of the things that she said violated me at a– at a really deep, personal level.

00:21:05 Aleksandra King: Did they? Yeah. What did she say to you that was the most hurtful? You read some–

00:21:10 Adam Hosker: You read– [unclear] –for it was just the most hurtful– the dismissiveness of– but you're working class– how could you have done anything with the Royal Navy? Just absolutely dismissive of– you're from the north, you're working class– how could you have done something that I can do? I've sat in the car on– Apprentice– with us– that's another thing– that she could do, that I could do.

00:21:32 Aleksandra King: But yeah– what is interesting for me– and I don't know how you've managed to have such self-control and composure– and I respect you for it– is, like– how did you not lose your mind when she was literally saying those things to you? Like– how did you not– if she dared speak like that to me, I– I'm really not sure what would have happened.

00:21:54 Adam Hosker: But I didn't– anyone– but yeah– I mean– I didn't–

00:21:58 Aleksandra King: Very–

00:21:59 Adam Hosker: Yeah, I am. But I also didn't want to explode– because the problem then is– it's he said, she said. If you explode, it becomes a grey area. When you start having a massive argument about it, all of a sudden people take sides– and it's a grey area. Whereas I'd just rather people just carry on doing that thing that I find abhorrent– and let them do more of it– and then eventually people figure it out.

00:22:25 Aleksandra King: So if she's watching– she might not be– she might be– you never know– she might be interested in what people think about her. What would you want to say to her– or if you bumped into her again, what would you want to say to her?

00:22:36 Adam Hosker: Go travelling, [unclear: Katie]– go travelling. Go travelling and meet people. Get in the mix, get off the beaten track– go to India, go to the African continent– go and meet people from different places, and you'll start to realise that actually we've got a lot more similarities than we've got differences. And then maybe you can then go and talk to people that are in these right-wing extreme groups– that you once thought that way too, and now you've realised things are a little bit different.

00:23:08 Aleksandra King: Do you know what– I– if I may– think that you can't actually change people, fundamentally. I think unless there's some major crisis– they can change themselves–

00:23:19 Adam Hosker: I don't even think they can.

00:23:21 Aleksandra King: I think that maybe– no– they can– there are some signs– at your brain– there's some neuroplasticity, and you can change certain connections– personal– [unclear]– yeah.

00:23:29 Adam Hosker: I just– spending energy on asking her to value this or that is almost like– cos if I look at that sort of situation– if I see someone speaking like that, or acting like that, or whatever– I don't see that as someone that I care to convince of anything. Because I see that as– she talks about class and things– that's not showing class or anything– that's just being rude for being rude's sake. It just– I'm not interested in changing that around, you know what I mean? I don't have that time for that. It's not so much that I'm suggesting that she changes–

00:24:10 Aleksandra King: Do you want her to change?

00:24:12 Adam Hosker: What I'd suggest to a young man or a young woman that was starting to lean that way– and I think it would be massively beneficial for any young person– to finish their A-levels, and before they go to university, get a rucksack, go travel, and meet people. And I just think– the people that I know, that I've met through my life, that have done that– they seem to have much more understanding about the human condition and society– yeah– and the implications of those kinds of thoughts. I just find them to be kind to people. And I just think– all's I can suggest, for her or for anybody else that might somehow think that they hate other people– they probably hate themselves– so they should probably go and do some kind of coun–

00:24:58 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:24:59 Adam Hosker: They should probably go and do some travel, and meet other people– just so those opinions that they've formed can be tested, really– yeah– and they can start to understand things. But I guess you've got the– what you're saying– people might not change– but I've seen people change over the years. And you've got personality, and you've got behaviour. Behaviour is very easy to change– we do that in organisations all the time, we do that through marketing campaigns– and we've seen behaviour change through the years. When I look back to the 1980s– the things that were acceptable to do and say, and the ways to act, are no longer acceptable today. So people– at an individual level, or at a societal level– do change. Yeah– fundamental personality– it– yeah– it does need a shift– sometimes it needs trauma– but what it really needs is experience. So I'd suggest the same thing to [unclear: Katie], or to anybody else. And also– if you're watching things on social media, and something's making you hurt a group of people– really question why somebody's feeding you that information. And I always think you should follow the money as well– like, why do we need to hurt people? Because it increases clicks– a lot of it is a game– and she probably doesn't hate people as much as she's making out she does.

00:26:09 Aleksandra King: No– no, she does. Coming back to the behavioural thing– you can change some behaviours because of situation– but there is the saying that a leopard doesn't change its spots. And you can take a leopard, and you can move it to Antarctica– it's still a leopard.

00:26:23 Adam Hosker: It's in Antarctica– it's going to have to change its behaviour in some way.

00:26:26 Aleksandra King: It will always remain a leopard. I hear what you're saying– but I think with some people, you have to put energy into the right places. And if someone's got such views– it is about them– and there's something not quite– there's an insecurity there, I think– but it's like an issue with them. I think there's neuroplasticity to all of us– but there are people that have severe mental health conditions that means they are evil. There are people in Broadmoor prison who have murdered multiple people– there are people with really severe mental health conditions– those are illnesses– that they– they don't even know–

00:27:04 Adam Hosker: But I think they're the only people that you really, truly would struggle to change.

00:27:09 Aleksandra King: Yeah– they're probably the people that you can– because a lot of– you've got a schizophrenic, for example, who's committing these atrocities– these murders– like a catatonic schizophrenic– so, an aggressive– you can give them medicine, and it rebalances–

00:27:22 Adam Hosker: Does it?

00:27:23 Aleksandra King: Yeah– literally.

00:27:24 Adam Hosker: Does it rebalance? It'll rebalance some of the chemical elements of the brain– but it usually numbs them– that's what those medications would usually do. I'm no expert on psychology, or psychosis, or any of the other conditions that people might suffer from– but my rudimentary understanding, from my mum being in the health service for 40-odd years, is that some people's brains are– through– for lack of understanding of the technical terminology– just [unclear: wired] up a little bit different. There are people that just have some idiosyncrasy that leads them to thinking very differently– and sometimes that's a good thing, and sometimes that's a bad thing. But there are some people that– if they really can't change, and they fill with hurt– then my first step would always be that they should look at the [unclear: self?], and then they should look at the wider world.

00:28:14 Aleksandra King: But– but it is within them.

00:28:16 Adam Hosker: Yeah. But I think– the odd person that perhaps can't change– I would hope that [unclear: Katie] one day does go and see a counsellor. And– because it's nothing to do with people coming across on boats from other countries. That's a little bit like the old adage of the red ant and the black ant, right? You get red ants and black ants– you put them in a jar, and they will coexist perfectly fine. You shake the jar, and they'll kill each other– but it's because they think the other one's shaking the jar– but someone else is shaking the jar. We just need to figure out, as a society, who's really shaking the jar. Because let's be honest– the reason that you can't get a doctor's appointment in the UK is because of funding– it's nothing to do with the fact that people are coming from another country. The reality of it is– the majority of people that are coming from other countries are coming because they need a better life– because the cities and towns have been bombed to pieces. And if it happened in the UK– the Russians invaded tomorrow and bombed the hell out of London– we'd all be heading south to try and find [unclear: safety] for our children– and I dare anyone to say that they wouldn't be doing that. If we've created situations at a global level that has led to mass migration, then we need to look at the root cause of the problem, and solve that. We need to put investment back into these countries that we've caused problems in, so people don't need to leave. And actually– we've– we sold a story around the world, as a nation– right back into the empire– that we were the motherland, that we were the international police force, that we were the good guys. So when your city is being rocked by bombs and blown to pieces– and you're like– where can I go that's safe, with my children– where they'll be safe, where they'll get healthcare, where they'll get opportunities– and then you look at the implications of the people that have come here a couple of generations ago, and where the children are now– the majority of them are super high performers, because they value what we have here– the parents value what we have here. I just find the views that somebody like Hopkins has just to be utterly misguided, and really ill-informed, and very one-dimensional– and just not looking at the bigger picture of why these things are happening– and just having sympathy for those people. My god– imagine walking and hitchhiking from Syria to the French border with a 7-year-old and a three-year-old, and having barely any money– and then getting on a raft, and risking the lives of your children. To say you [unclear: abhor] those people, and you want them to drown–

00:30:50 Aleksandra King: We're going to move away from politics. Did you lie in the boardroom?

00:30:59 Adam Hosker: It–

00:30:59 Aleksandra King: Yes or no answer– just for now.

00:31:02 Adam Hosker: Not intentionally– so, no– certainly didn't. I think there were a couple of things happened that day, and I was pretty convinced that something happened with a particular product– but it happened with a different one. Was I inaccurate? Yes. Did I do it intentionally? No.

00:31:21 Aleksandra King: It was– did you lie– yes or no?

00:31:23 Adam Hosker: I was inaccurate. I– cos to lie is to be absolutely aware– I was unaware.

00:31:27 Aleksandra King: Were– so you know– too– like–

00:31:29 Adam Hosker: Yeah– so did I say something that was inaccurate? Yes, I absolutely did. But did I do it– but did I do it intentionally–

00:31:34 Aleksandra King: Speaking– or– or providing the wrong inform–

00:31:36 Adam Hosker: Inaccurately informed– or confused– I was confused.

00:31:39 Aleksandra King: But there's– lying is lying. Lying is deliberately mis– deliberate– did you do that?

00:31:43 Adam Hosker: Did I deliberately mislead? No.

00:31:45 Aleksandra King: No? Because Lord Sugar claims that you did– and he said that was the final nail in the coffin, and the ultimate reason for your firing.

00:31:52 Adam Hosker: So– that's not accurate, then. Then– so– what– what he said when he fired me was– it was a little bit like– somebody up there was telling him something– cos I was in the boardroom every week. That was his ultimate reason– because I've been in every week– yeah. And it was like– I think he was probably looking at it that, like– if the candidates don't like him, and they're dragging him in, then there's something– that might mean that he's not the ideal candidate for me. They have to make excuses for why they get rid of people. Anyway– there has to be an [unclear: ultimate]– to be fair– when we did the wrap party, he apologised– said if he'd have watched it back, there's no way he would have got rid of me.

00:32:27 Aleksandra King: So that was a bit of [unclear: vindication]. So what's the main thing that The Apprentice taught you?

00:32:35 Adam Hosker: For me, I think– so– the way the tasks work– 6 o'clock in the morning you're given a dossier, and it's– today, guys, you're going to go to London Zoo and sell sweets– or– today, guys, you've got to set up a coffee business or a food business, and go and sell it on the street. The fact that– with a group of people, and a seed fund of sometimes a few hundred, maybe a thousand pound– between 6am and midday, we've created a company, bought the supplies, and gone out on the street and started selling something– is phenomenal. And I think that's the lesson that the show really fails to deliver to the public. Because if I was a 13-year-old kid at school in Blackburn watching that, I'd be like– I could do something– yeah– it's easy to start a business– I just need a couple of quid, some stock, and off I go– and then build from there.

00:33:30 Aleksandra King: You say that– but most businesses fail, don't they?

00:33:33 Adam Hosker: They do, they do. And I think most people that start a business– they're either not really worried about risk, or they don't have anything to lose. So a lot of businesses that are started by young people– because they don't have [unclear: mouths] to feed at home– but yeah– they do fail. Other businesses fail because people go into something they don't know anything about– and Alan Sugar talks about that often– stick to what you know. And there's definitely something in that. If it's not something that you know about, you've certainly got to learn about it, and learn as you go. So I wouldn't say that– if you've got a great idea, and it's not something that you know enough about– then you've got to go out and talk to a lot of people. If you just start something– you don't know what you don't know– so you're not going to be in the best position. But there's a lot of businesses out there that are started by people a little bit further into their career that do succeed. So if you look at the average age of an entrepreneur that has a net worth above a million– it's about– it's between 42 and 45– that's accurate. So I think– go out there and learn– let other people pay you a wage while you learn– and then set up your own business– would probably be the advice I'd give to a young person. But also– I would never put someone off starting something. Because actually– if you start simple– you can go and buy some stock, and get a licence to sell on a street corner somewhere, and go and start selling something– do some stuff.

00:34:54 Aleksandra King: So– your old boss, actually– because you're now in sales, and you're pretty much at the top of the pack with that– you're doing really well– your old boss said that nobody doubts your talent, hard work or your skills. So– taking that into account– how would you rate your success today, on a scale of 1 to 10? One– bad. Ten– amazing.

00:35:19 Adam Hosker: Probably a six.

00:35:22 Aleksandra King: Oh.

00:35:23 Adam Hosker: There was a middle part of my career where I don't think I put work first.

00:35:29 Aleksandra King: What did you put first?

00:35:33 Adam Hosker: Friends– music– women– all the classical distractions.

00:35:38 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:35:38 Adam Hosker: Yeah– I think that– yeah– there was definitely a period there where– I was ambitious– I wanted to do well–

00:35:46 Aleksandra King: You got distracted.

00:35:47 Adam Hosker: I got distracted. But also– from where I'm from– the expectations– that I felt like– I proved the people I wanted to prove wrong, at one point. I think that self-actualisation piece I really struggled with post-Apprentice– a couple of years after getting some good jobs– the things that people told me I couldn't do, I'd then gone and done– and then it was like– really struggling with purpose. And I had to spend quite a bit of time and really look at what my purpose was– and then kicked on. So I think I possibly lost a few years there. I've been involved with a couple of businesses that haven't quite worked out– I've taken some big risks– I've put some big money into a couple of companies that haven't quite worked out. Do I feel like I fulfil my potential? Not even close. I regularly meet with C-level executives at massive, multi-billion-dollar organisations– and I feel like I could mix it in roles at that level– and I'm not at that level. So I do rather feel that I could have probably done more.

00:36:49 Aleksandra King: So why– why aren't you at that level?

00:36:52 Adam Hosker: I'm working towards it, still. I'm far from a finished article. But regardless of any titles that I have now, or I've had in the past– I'm ultimately still just a salesman– is the way I look at it. When– I do feel that I've got great capability as being a salesman– but I've also got capability above and beyond that– that I don't feel like I am either able to access, due to my role, or that anybody would want me to access. So there's times when I probably feel a little bit handcuffed by the role that I'm in. Like– I need to stay on task– I need to bring the deals in– and it's a lot of work– and there isn't time to do other things.

00:37:29 Aleksandra King: It's a lot of work– sales– especially at top level.

00:37:32 Adam Hosker: Yeah– so there isn't really the time to do that. But do I have– but do I have aspirations of getting to the point of being, like, a chief sales officer, or chief sales and marketing officer, at some point? Yeah– absolutely.

00:37:42 Aleksandra King: You can earn huge do– this is the other problem– this is the other problem with being in sales, isn't it? Because so tempting to chase the– yeah–

00:37:49 Adam Hosker: Cos I can earn a CEO salary–

00:37:51 Aleksandra King: Oh yeah.

00:37:52 Adam Hosker: –doing a sales role.

00:37:53 Aleksandra King: Yeah– of course– so–

00:37:54 Adam Hosker: And not have the pressure–

00:37:55 Aleksandra King: And not have the pressure of running a business. Yeah– but you do have the pressure of bringing the bacon home, to feed everyone else– they're all relying on you– waiting for their steak.

00:38:03 Adam Hosker: But that was a problem [unclear: for them]– but that was a problem in [unclear: career]– yeah– the problem with [unclear: career] was– I was earning really good money, and finishing work at 6 o'clock some nights, and just dropping it– forgetting about it. Whereas when I ran my own company, it was 24 hours a day– like, I was dreaming about it– it was just non-stop–

00:38:23 Aleksandra King: Which do you want? Which do you want? This is the– you want to be dreaming about a business 24 hours a day?

00:38:29 Adam Hosker: This is the thing, isn't it? I think– what I found– the second you think you've got there, you go backwards. The really top companies in the world value their top sales people–

00:38:41 Aleksandra King: Yeah– big time.

00:38:42 Adam Hosker: –and the top sales people are amongst that sort of– the elite crowd– because they realise that, without them, there isn't much.

00:38:50 Aleksandra King: Are you– happy?

00:38:53 Adam Hosker: Do you know what– mostly. Am I completely satisfied with everything–

00:38:57 Aleksandra King: Everything.

00:38:58 Adam Hosker: No. I have a really great life– I'll be honest with you. Like– the role that I'm doing today– I travel around seeing customers all the time. So my day-to-day– don't get me wrong– it's sales– it's high pressure– it's very difficult to win business these days– I haven't seen anything not be signed off by a CEO and an entire board in years– so there's pressure. But like– from the role that I do– from the job that I do– super happy with where I am, what I'm doing. I feel like I can do a lot better. But it's the stuff outside of that as well. So like– the podcast that I do as well– I really enjoy doing– I like having a creative outlet. I film music videos with a lot of musicians in Manchester, and try my best to help them with marketing and go-to-market strategy, and all the stuff that you wouldn't naturally be able to do as a musician. They never listen to me– because they're creatives– they've always got a vision for doing that– and as soon as I start talking about sales funnels or marketing funnels, they're like– no– disgusting. But yeah– I've got that– I've got a fantastic group of friends– like– especially at the age that I am now– like, mid-40s– and I've still got a really big group of friends– a really diverse selection. So yeah– and I get to see a bit of the world. And yeah– but do I feel like I'm there yet? No. I want to earn enough money to buy a house in Italy, and do more things.

00:40:15 Aleksandra King: Yeah?

00:40:15 Adam Hosker: So I worked in Italy for a year, with a company called [unclear: Wonderflow?], and just loved the country and the people.

00:40:22 Aleksandra King: And yeah– it's just beautiful, isn't it? And the food– the wine–

00:40:27 Adam Hosker: Like– just the way people are. Like I said before– I like having people around– I like that social engagement– I like going to the bar and having drinks with friends after work.

00:40:35 Aleksandra King: Italians like that too– socialising– so you'd probably be in the right place. Maybe not so much some other countries–

00:40:39 Adam Hosker: Fit– fit in– fit in there pretty well.

00:40:42 Aleksandra King: What about your health?

00:40:43 Adam Hosker: I need to lose a bit of weight.

00:40:45 Aleksandra King: How much– how much weight do you want to lose?

00:40:46 Adam Hosker: I need– I probably need to lose about two stone, to be honest. So– just getting in that routine is super difficult.

00:40:51 Aleksandra King: You know what I'm going to say to that– you've got to make time for it– there's no excuse. You've got to travel– your skipping rope, or your– whatever it is. Peter, that I work with, takes his running shoes and shorts– you can run anywhere in the world.

00:41:05 Adam Hosker: Yeah– that's my problem–

00:41:07 Aleksandra King: Anywhere in the world– you can– anywhere.

00:41:09 Adam Hosker: So– I can't run– I've got a– a knee–

00:41:12 Aleksandra King: Do you?

00:41:14 Adam Hosker: Yeah. And to be honest with you– I studied sport management at university– running and jogging are some of the worst things you can do for your health. Exercise is super important– endurance exercise– particularly things like HIIT training– super useful. But the human body is not designed for a constant pace. Your heart's not designed for it– your joints aren't designed for it. We're designed to hunt. So we're designed to walk, and track animals– and then sprint, and capture animals. That's what we've evolved to do. To run at one pace for a long period of time– we're just not physiologically designed to do that.

00:41:51 Aleksandra King: What if we're hunting an animal for 5K? We need to– we need to speed up–

00:41:55 Adam Hosker: Yeah– you would. So if you look at the tribes in the savannah of Africa that still do that– they don't run. They will walk, and they will jog– and they're lean– like– they are still what we are supposed to be, as a species. But it's akin to HIIT training– it's the change of pace. And actually– yeah– and if you want to lose weight– because this is the problem with me being a little bit overweight at the moment– is– I know exactly what I'm supposed to do.

00:42:21 Aleksandra King: Of course you do. So what's next for you?

00:42:24 Adam Hosker: So I think– yeah– there's a couple of things– like, obviously, getting back in shape– that's really important. But at the moment, the big thing that I'm thinking about is just securing my future, financially. I'm obviously mid-40s– I'm looking out as far as retirement, and making sure that I own a house in the place I want to retire to. So at the moment I'm living in the city centre of Manchester– I've got an apartment in the city centre– and it's perfect, because I'm easy to the train station, the airports– we're travelling– I love music– I'm out in Manchester watching bands and musicians all the time. So for now, it's great–

00:43:01 Aleksandra King: But you want your–

00:43:03 Adam Hosker: Yeah– but when I retire, I'm thinking, like, the [unclear: Amalfi Coast?] or something like that. So– yeah– so I need to bring in some business and earn some money, to be able to afford to do that, and retire by the time I'm 60 or 65. But then– I do lecturing at University of Leeds as well– there as a guest lecturer– and I've really enjoyed that. So the other thing that I'm looking at is getting my master's finished off, and then potentially doing a PhD. Because I wouldn't want to be inactive when I retire– I think I'd like to give something back. So I'm looking, really, at– like– on that long-term scale– of buying a house somewhere else.

00:43:37 Aleksandra King: Yeah. It's been brilliant having you on, Adam.

00:43:41 Adam Hosker: Oh–

00:43:42 Aleksandra King: [unclear: We?] loved hearing all the stories– all controversy– and I really hope that you get that beautiful house in Italy.

00:43:47 Adam Hosker: I'll be held [unclear: accountable] by everybody on YouTube–

00:43:49 Aleksandra King: That– exactly– now that you said it. That's what I love about it– you put yourself up there– you make yourself [unclear: accountable]– boom– I like it– I like it.

00:43:57 Adam Hosker: Thanks– much thanks for having me.