Stop Being Boring: An Expert's Guide to Confident Communication

Transcript

### Cold open

Produced cold open– a voiceover introduction plus a montage of clips lifted from later in the episode. The clip lines legitimately recur verbatim at their original points below.

00:00:00 Emma Taylor: I always say to my clients, think about a speech or a presentation like a gift.

00:00:06 Voiceover: Emma Taylor– public speaking coach with 21 years coaching everyone from MPs to entrepreneurs. She's seen every speaking mistake and knows exactly how to fix it fast. Actor trained, Emma gives real-world public speaking and comms hacks that work instantly, from wedding toast to boardroom pitches. You want to hear this one.

00:00:34 Emma Taylor: And make that bolder statement, as long as you're not barking at the same–

00:00:39 Aleksandra King: You know, it's tone.

00:00:42 Emma Taylor: Exactly– tone makes such a difference, as long as the tone feels right.

00:00:46 Emma Taylor: If you put controversial headlines after it– do this or you'll die, you know– then that's really going to–

00:00:55 Aleksandra King: It's okay and advisable and just the right thing to do to get help and to improve this, just the same way you would sharpen any other skill. You know, this is a very important life skill, public speaking.

### Interview

00:01:14 Aleksandra King: Thanks, Emma, for coming on. You've got an incredible set of skills that I know everyone listening will benefit from, and I'll call those– and correct me if I'm wrong– public speaking skills, presentation skills, how-you-speak skills. How would you frame it, the whole thing of performing, even on an online stage like this?

00:01:38 Emma Taylor: Yeah, I would say– I call what I do public speaking, and I think there's the public speaking that we all assume is a person on a stage– that's the real high-end, all-singing, all-dancing public speaking– but then equally I would say when you speak in a public environment. So if you're in a meeting and you make a contribution, or a Zoom call when there are more people present, or you're in a larger meeting– I don't know, you're at a parents' evening and you just want to ask a question, so you put your hand up and there's a room full of people– now in that moment you're not making a presentation, but you are public speaking. Speaking in public.

00:02:23 Aleksandra King: Speaking in public. And us– we're speaking in public online, so this will go out and people will see the way that we communicate– and feel free to tear apart the way that I present. I mean, I always feel it's so good to learn, and it's so wonderful to meet experts in their field and people that really know their craft. I mean, you've been doing this 21 years.

00:02:47 Emma Taylor: I have, yes.

00:02:48 Aleksandra King: It shocks me. You're really, really experienced. You work with actors, lawyers, politicians.

00:02:53 Emma Taylor: Yes– I mean, it's a real array. I mean, surveyors, chess players–

00:02:58 Aleksandra King: I mean, that's the beauty of– chess players?

00:03:00 Emma Taylor: Well, I think this person had to go and give a talk. She was a chess professional, and she also runs a school for children learning chess, and there was some conference and she was asked to give a speech at– and so from being someone who's an expert at chess to suddenly, you know, a conference where you've got a thousand people to speak to– and that's it– that's a huge task. So that was a really lovely speech, to help somebody prepare and then get over. But no, it really is– I do run the gamut of clients, and actually I would say in one sense that's what makes my job interesting, because the skills don't particularly change but the people do, and the types of speech that they need to give are always very different.

00:03:51 Aleksandra King: The politicians just want to skirt around the thing– but in a way they've got to do so– if there's something very controversial and they don't want to answer it, they have to politely move away or gently steer from that.

00:04:01 Emma Taylor: Well, they should address the question and then get on to their key message.

00:04:05 Aleksandra King: They need your training.

00:04:06 Emma Taylor: Some of– some of them.

00:04:07 Aleksandra King: Some of them definitely need your training, yeah– because it becomes really annoying when they don't actually answer the question.

00:04:12 Emma Taylor: So they're being probably given the wrong advice, I would say. But yes– then you've got CEOs, and then you've got just someone who's trying to have the confidence to put their hand up in a meeting, or to speak up in a Zoom call.

00:04:22 Aleksandra King: Which, you know, can also be scary, and it can be quite intimidating when you've got all these people looking at you, and it's like– yeah.

00:04:28 Emma Taylor: I mean, I think that's the difficulty about the Zoom call. It's not just that you've got a lot of people there– and that's if they've got their cameras on– but it's the closeness of the screen. I did some work a couple of years ago at a solicitors' firm in Leeds, and the week before I went in they had a psychologist go in and give a talk about– well, I don't particularly know– I mean, it couldn't have exactly been public speaking, but it doesn't matter– but she was saying the reason why so many of us dislike speaking virtually is because when you're on that meeting and you've got 16 faces on the screen, they're right up against your– imagine if that happened in real life. It would be absolutely petrifying. And then of course there's the lack of feedback.

00:05:18 Aleksandra King: Or with the Zoom call, it's any little facial muscle– or someone yawns, maybe because they are a little bit tired or lacking oxygen, and then your mind just starts to run on and, well, potentially catastrophise.

00:05:32 Emma Taylor: Totally, totally.

00:05:34 Aleksandra King: And it's okay and advisable and just the right thing to do to get help and to improve this, just the same way you would sharpen any other skill. You know, this is a very important life skill, public speaking.

00:05:49 Emma Taylor: Yeah, absolutely. And it always amazes me that people assume it's an innate talent. Now for some people it is– you know, Barack Obama was always going to be a great public speaker. Michelle Obama, however, had to work at it. And you can work at it. You can learn technique– with structure, thinking about how am I going to structure this speech. So many people are so quick just to rush and come up with a PowerPoint presentation. That's no good– the speech needs to have a journey, it needs to have some flow. And then after that, of course, thinking about delivery technique– so that sometimes you're still, sometimes you're moving, that the face– the emotional organ– is selling the message, that your pace is right, that the range is good so that we don't have that monotone as we're talking. And again, that can be taught. So I think children that have been to schools where there is a debating society, and then those children that do get involved in drama as well, are at an advantage– they're learning these skills from a very early age. But for those of us that weren't taught debating at school– and maybe there wasn't that fantastic drama club– although there was, but our parents couldn't afford to let us go– we then have to come to it a little bit later in life and pick up those skills. But you can pick them up, and it's up to you to embed them.

00:07:21 Aleksandra King: I mean, the difference between what public speaking can do for a person is huge. You know, if you think about someone like JFK– you know, most of the great politicians of the world– anyone who's sort of advanced in business has had to learn that as well. When they get in front of these huge crowds– you can move a massive audience just with the tone of your voice, can't you?

00:07:43 Emma Taylor: Oh, absolutely.

00:07:45 Aleksandra King: Crazy.

00:07:45 Emma Taylor: Yeah– pace and tone, and knowing when it's nice to use that chest voice, and then other times when you're selling ideas to keep it speedy and be in the head and sing a little bit more– and then to measure it, to change between the two– that can be really effective.

00:08:03 Aleksandra King: Okay, so what we're going to do– we have so many questions to get through, and they're all valuable, and I want to get through as many as we possibly can. See how we're going to get through these questions.

00:08:13 Emma Taylor: We're going to get through them somehow.

00:08:16 Aleksandra King: But we'll take it one by one and just go– because, okay, this is the way– these are the questions that people are asking, and I know that if we can get them answered, we're totally giving value to our audience, and everyone can get better at public speaking.

00:08:29 Emma Taylor: And we're all about giving value.

00:08:30 Aleksandra King: We're all about giving value, and we want people to watch this episode and learn from this episode and become way better at public speaking. That's basically– it's a simple goal. Let's see– let's see if we can do it. Okay– you've got two– generally– generally good– you're a bit– you're a better, more professional speaker– but, you know, we'll see how we can– can we get– this is a challenge for us– can we get through this volume? Okay, let's go from the first thing– what's the biggest public speaking mistake people make?

00:08:56 Emma Taylor: Not really thinking about who you're speaking to. I see so many presentations where you can feel that the presenter is just rolling out what they've always done, rather than thinking, who's this audience– be an audience of five or 35– what do they care about, what do they need to know, and therefore tweaking my presentation appropriately, rather than just doing the same old sales presentation that they always do. You know, it's a case of getting rid of this section and these slides– but actually this audience will probably benefit from knowing X, so I'll put in some other fresh material there. So it's not always about having to start from scratch– this is what people feel, you know, I haven't got the time to write it all from scratch– it's fine, but as long as you adapt it so that the audience feels the presentation is absolutely relevant, and more than that, that the audience feels that it was considered when that presentation was being crafted. I always say to my clients, think about a speech or a presentation like a gift. When you're on the receiving end of a gift, you can feel if you've been considered when this gift was purchased. Equally, you can feel if someone just grabbed that bottle of vodka from the local off-licence and thought, that will do– and you're not even a vodka drinker. You know, it's got to feel pertinent to the audience.

00:10:29 Aleksandra King: That's very powerful– because I asked you what's the biggest mistake we make when we speak in public– you know, a person makes– and it's not about what the person is speaking, how the person is speaking– it's about the message to the other person– what they're receiving, rather than what you're saying, how you're saying, whether you're standing, breathing like this, or high tone, low tone. That's crazy– it's about them.

00:10:49 Emma Taylor: And sometimes– it's funny, here today you're being a host– sometimes I'll say to my clients as well, think about that– as a host, imagine someone's coming into your home. How would you treat them? You would make that evening go in such a way that's going to make them feel comfortable, and they're going to go away having had a good time. Now, a speech isn't all about having a good time– I appreciate that– but it's about them knowing that their needs have been met and that they'd been considered.

00:11:16 Aleksandra King: Because I suppose you're saying something for a reason– you're delivering a message that's hopefully of importance, that the person is receiving– that needs to receive it, for whatever reason– so you have to make sure that you're considering them. I love that– that's why you're on– this is incredible. Okay, so if you just had 60 seconds to give someone a tip that transforms their speaking, what would it be?

00:11:42 Emma Taylor: There are two– but it's got to be one, in which case I'd probably say work on your eye contact. We always talk about connection, and I would say, aside from the voice– you have to have a voice in order to speak– the next important technique, the next way of really conveying a message, is by seeing your audience. Let them know that you have seen them. So many speakers, though– their eyes are anywhere. They're at their notes, a screen, looking around the hall, or just sort of fading out– you know, it's dreadful. Let your audience, regardless of the size of it, know that you are seeing it. So sometimes see that room as a big circle. Other times zone in– speak to the five to 10 people that are sitting in a certain pocket of the room– connect with them. And then have some one-to-one eye contact– if your audience is less than, say, 70, then that's possible. And make sure you see everybody– and it's not just about the people that are directly in front of you, it's also about the people in the awkward pockets– making sure that you physically turn around and you acknowledge their existence.

00:13:06 Aleksandra King: Yeah– and of course in a Zoom call you can't do that, but you might refer to someone or you might acknowledge them. You know, there's something as well about customer service– you know, if you're, you know, in a queue to check in at the airport or whatever, it makes such a difference when the person who's actually serving everyone looks up and acknowledges you, doesn't it? It's a little look– it's very simple and very human.

00:13:30 Emma Taylor: Yes– and the thing is, when you do that to an audience, then it looks at you– it gives you its full attention. Whereas if an audience feels that you haven't got your eye on it, well then they'll look– they don't owe you anything– they'll look around, they'll get their phone out. Whereas when it knows you're looking at them, it's less likely to.

00:13:53 Aleksandra King: Okay– and then this one's interesting. It's a question about trying to get a message across, you know, let's say 30 to 60 seconds– you know, you don't have a lot of time– you don't want to– I mean, I'm quite conscious of this as well, but in a Zoom call you don't want to ramble on too long. But how can people sort of– is there a way to test how long you're speaking? How can you be aware of how long you're speaking? Should you be thinking about, you know– you know, I'm going on a bit? How do you measure?

00:14:20 Emma Taylor: I think the second you think, am I going on a bit– you probably are going on a bit. Yeah– I mean, it always depends on what it is you're trying to get across. You know, so sometimes 30 seconds will be too much for a particular point– other times two minutes won't do a point justice. But my rule is, when you open the contribution– have a statement to open with, a nice clear statement. You know– I don't know– tipping in restaurants needs abolishing and waiters need to be paid a proper wage. That's the statement, right? Then after that you will illustrate it– you'll say why that's true– and then you'll finish, you'll round off neatly. Because what we don't like– or what never feels good in a meeting– and we've all done it and we've all witnessed it– is when someone does start to ramble, and they go on a bit, and you think, is this where it's going to finish? And then they go on a bit more, and you think, I think I've heard this before. And they just– know that you're going to end– and that can sometimes just be by repeating your statement, you know. So, for that reason– and so that's why I say tipping needs to stop– we need to pay waiting staff fairly.

00:15:46 Aleksandra King: Okay– I love it. Okay, so it's a story–

00:15:49 Emma Taylor: Yeah– or a message sandwich, if you like, with your illustration in the middle– that's the filling– in a way that is filling– and you've got statements either side.

00:15:58 Aleksandra King: It's like newspaper headlines– big story–

00:16:01 Emma Taylor: Oh, definitely.

00:16:02 Aleksandra King: Detail– but you close.

00:16:03 Emma Taylor: Yeah– and if you can just start embedding that habit–

00:16:08 Aleksandra King: Well, okay– so we need to think a little bit more about our structure– you know, having a story to tell. Even if it's a little point–

00:16:18 Emma Taylor: A little point– it deserves a structure as well–

00:16:20 Aleksandra King: –is what you're saying.

00:16:21 Emma Taylor: Yeah, absolutely.

00:16:22 Aleksandra King: The eye contact, and then considering who we're speaking to, so that we know, to the best of our ability, that they're receiving the message in the right way–

00:16:33 Emma Taylor: That– yeah– that it's relevant to them.

00:16:36 Aleksandra King: Okay– already I feel we're making a good point. Okay– so if someone wants to try– smart– you know, sound smarter, let's say, more– or maybe authoritative– like, just more– you know, wants to sound like a leader, whatever you want it to be– is there a way, something simple that they can do with their voice, with their body language, to command a bit more, you know, authority, or whatever you want to call it?

00:17:04 Emma Taylor: I mean, leaders come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, don't they? I think excitement, sometimes, when you're selling an idea– enthusiasm, passion– when you are in sales mode or you're trying to be persuasive. I always think about Professor Brian Cox and his physics– I mean, if he wasn't as enthusiastic about it as he is, he wouldn't have the following he gets. Part of it is inspired by his personality– he loves it. So I think where you are genuinely– genuinely passionate and excited about something, really let that show. Other moments, if we're looking to be authoritative, it is about being able to have the difficult conversations, of course, and mentioning the elephant that's in the room– and doing it with steadiness. So again, thinking about being composed– slow pace, making people's eye contact– then– I mean, that's really important when you're delivering a harder message.

00:18:26 Aleksandra King: Oh, that's good advice. You know, there's also things going around– I find these quite interesting, actually– little clips on TikTok, social media, about certain words that we can use, certain phrases that– or that we shouldn't use, right– that make us sound a little bit, you know, like we're not really sure, and it doesn't give that credibility. You know, like kind of–

00:18:48 Emma Taylor: Kind of– think of the qualifiers, yeah. Those– get rid of them.

00:18:54 Aleksandra King: Do that– why– is it– [unclear: politeness?]– what is it? I don't know.

00:19:01 Emma Taylor: Sometimes– it's a bit cultural, in that to be too strong with the point doesn't feel very British– that we'd say kind of, because we think that was more gentle. And I think that's why women do that as well, because otherwise you might come across as being strident. But I think it's absolutely fine to take away the qualifiers and make that bolder statement, as long as you're not barking at the same–

00:19:31 Aleksandra King: You know, it's tone.

00:19:33 Emma Taylor: Yeah, exactly– tone makes such a difference, as long as the tone feels right. But I mean, one thing– and it's similar to the qualifiers– try and get rid of the fillers– the uh, um. I think those hesitations can give people the feeling that you don't really know what you're talking about, and for so many people it's just a habit. I know people– they'll– at the end of sentences– or they'll finish a sentence and they'll say, you know– you know– or, you know what I mean– you know what I mean– and it's– yeah, it's just a habit, you know.

00:20:07 Aleksandra King: You know– literally, I said it just now. When I edit these podcasts, I have a look– and I'll go through the podcast and then I notice them, because I look– how many ums are there– and– you know, you know, you know– and kind of– and sort of– you think, seriously? I didn't even– I didn't– I wasn't aware that I did it as much as I do. I was not aware of that– I thought, I'm actually pretty good, I don't go too much.

00:20:31 Emma Taylor: I think there'll always– there'll always be some, and don't beat yourself up too much. But there are some speakers who just– uh– and– you know– you know– really– and then the problem with that is not only do people then potentially lose confidence, they start looking out for the uh– uh– the you know– the so– so it's like an infection.

00:20:51 Aleksandra King: So– yeah. Okay, another thing– uh, um– do that– should you rehearse before doing a speech? Should you rehearse before going into a Zoom call? How much practice do you need– or does that make you robotic?

00:21:08 Emma Taylor: Yeah, I think it completely depends on the speech. I mean, I would say going into a Zoom call– no– it might not be a bad idea, you know, as I said before, if you're making points, just to say aloud the statements– those messages that you want to convey. Say the statement out loud a few times, that you know you can really get your mouth around them, and that there's not a word in your head that you think you're going to use that has five syllables– and then as you try and say it, you're dropping all over it– best to substitute that with a one- or two-syllable word. Yeah– but no, keep it– keep it nice and relaxed then as you're illustrating why you've made that statement in a Zoom meeting. If you've got a keynote speech– yeah, you know, in that context then absolutely you've got to get that on its feet and go through it a few times– and particularly, I'd say, the opening and the close. That's the most important thing. If you can work from a few bullets or prompts mid-speech– because, yes, I know this section, and by this stage adrenaline will have died down, I'll be feeling calm– great, you know, that's not so vital. But I would say getting the beginning and the ending right is key.

00:22:27 Aleksandra King: Okay, let's talk about this keeping calm thing. So I remember doing a lot of speeches as a child in public speaking festivals– I love that– but it was like a nervous energy– and I love stress, in a really weird way– but I remember feeling the intense nerves and things, and I think the only thing that ever helped me with that was breathing.

00:22:49 Emma Taylor: Yep. Yeah– I mean, there are lots and lots of techniques. The two that I find most beneficial myself are to remind myself I've done my preparation, for one. Yeah– okay– that's so important. If I know I've put in– let's say it is a keynote speech– and I know that, in terms of thinking about my topic, structuring the speech, getting my visuals together, rehearsing it a few times– I've probably put in six hours of work there. I mean, you've not done it in a block, but bit by bit– and as you've been driving along, thinking about it– six hours of work. That's a lot of work. So remember– remember that. And then the next thing is, as you say, breathing. As you're waiting to go on, breathe properly. I've been practising yoga for well more than half my life now–

00:23:48 Aleksandra King: Awesome.

00:23:48 Emma Taylor: –and in pranayama, what's always key is that your exhalation is longer than the inhalation. So say you breathe in for four– hold it for two– there's that place where you're neither inhaling or exhaling– now exhale for six.

00:24:10 Aleksandra King: In for– and then you can–

00:24:13 Emma Taylor: Exactly– you can make that in for seven, hold for two, out for nine– just make sure the exhalation is longer. And not only is it calming, it's also preparing the whole respiratory system for the job that it's got to do– but also it does bring down blood pressure. So there's so many perks to that. And let me tell you what I do as well– I marry this then with preparation– reminding myself about the preparation. So on the inhalation I'm saying to myself– I have done my preparation– internally, not out loud– and then on the exhalation I say– I am prepared. So the mantra is, I have done my preparation– I am prepared. And let that happen a few times– and that works a treat for me.

00:25:02 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:25:03 Emma Taylor: Things, though, that other people need to be aware of is just tension. So many people– when we're tense, it goes to the neck, the shoulder, all around here. And of course you need your larynx to work well– so it's about being able to release that tension.

00:25:24 Aleksandra King: Why people have this nervous–

00:25:26 Emma Taylor: Yeah– it's because– for some people it's all around the neck– some people it's very much in the jaw– quite a male thing, for it to be in the jaw– around here. So outside of public speaking, what I'd say as well is, when you find yourself in moments of tension– you know, when things aren't going well, you're a bit scared– think about, what's my body doing, where is that tension– and get into the habit then of being able to release it quite quickly.

00:25:54 Aleksandra King: Oh– therapy, therapy. I just did something, which was interrupt you–

00:25:59 Emma Taylor: Ah.

00:26:00 Aleksandra King: So let's talk about that. How can you politely interrupt someone? And let's actually also, whilst I'm asking this question, talk about Piers Morgan– I'm sure you know him. He's wonderful at interrupting people, and it's a normal thing for him, and it's part of the show. How come he gets it right– is that because it's his brand? And is it okay to interrupt people?

00:26:18 Emma Taylor: Well, I think most of the time when people interrupt, they're doing it because they're excited and they agree with somebody– and as long as you're aware that that's it, and you still want them to finish their sentence, you can chip in and then say, but go on– you were telling me about–

00:26:37 Aleksandra King: That's a good way– that–

00:26:39 Emma Taylor: And that's absolutely fine. I think rarely do people do it actually because it's been fuelled by arrogance– that they think they've got something better to say. Usually it's just done by excitement. I mean, we should probably try and wait it out and let the person finish and then come in– but let's not beat ourselves up if we are interrupting for the right reasons.

00:27:02 Aleksandra King: But sometimes it's– go on– sometimes, you know– and in podcasts as well, I can't– I can't let people carry on and on, so you go, you know–

00:27:12 Emma Taylor: Now is that because they're rambling?

00:27:14 Aleksandra King: Sometimes they're rambling– they might be going off-piste, in their own world.

00:27:18 Emma Taylor: Well, that's different if they're going off-piste– if– if we're no longer within the realms of the discussion– and I think– I always say, say the name. This is– you know, in meetings– say the name, it gets their attention. Say, thanks for that– now– and then something different.

00:27:34 Aleksandra King: Okay– okay, I'll use that– I'll use that. Voice– let's talk about that. Should you be warming it up? I know singers do that– but for a speech, before a Zoom– if you don't want that– is there something you can do?

00:27:48 Emma Taylor: Yeah– I mean, absolutely. I'll tell you something that I always find incredible. So you'll have actors, say at the Edinburgh Festival, and they're going out and they're playing to houses of six people sometimes– I've done it– yet they will still warm up their voices. Conversely, you'll have CEOs who are going out to conferences, you know, where there are a thousand people in the hall– they won't even think to do it. So absolutely– when you have that large audience and there's no amplification, or little amplification, you should warm up your voice. So humming is a great thing to do– just hum along to some music– Beatles ballads– put on a Beatles ballad and hum along to it in the car, and that really starts to warm up the voice– and it helps the breath as well. And then other things that are nice to do– tongue twisters– warm up the articulators– because even if you do have amplification, getting your mouth to move around your words can be tricky. I mean, I had that today.

00:29:00 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:29:01 Emma Taylor: And you think, it's not even a particularly difficult word– but for some reason the mouth journey to go from E to O maybe isn't there– and that's why there's sound–

00:29:12 Aleksandra King: Okay, okay– so like, she sells seashells on the seashore–

00:29:15 Emma Taylor: Yeah– I'm sure the shells that she's– ah– Red Lorry, Yellow Lorry is a brilliant one, because it's so tricky– because what you're asking your mouth to do is make two very different shapes– there's lots of E– O– and actually it's that journey, making that shape, that just becomes too tiring–

00:29:32 Aleksandra King: That's why the sound–

00:29:34 Emma Taylor: Yeah– it– it starts to go. But if you can consciously– I'm going to make the effort to– oh– e– oh– red lorry, yellow lorry– red lorry, yellow lorry– red lorry, yellow lorry– then you're getting a really nice warm-up in the cheeks. And this is what I'd say– vary them– because if all you're doing is she sells seashells, you're going to get good at it fast– but that's not the point.

00:29:57 Aleksandra King: I'm very good at that one, actually– I can challenge people.

00:29:59 Emma Taylor: It's about– yeah– about changing them, so that you're constantly being exercised.

00:30:03 Aleksandra King: Okay– so you spoke about preparation, and that's something that you inhale– I'm prepared– you know, I know that I've done that. But can you also still fake a confidence on stage if you are really scared?

00:30:17 Emma Taylor: Oh, yes. And I suppose the good news is most symptoms of adrenaline are not visible. People can't see–

00:30:28 Aleksandra King: Oh, your heart–

00:30:29 Emma Taylor: People can't see–

00:30:31 Aleksandra King: Actually true.

00:30:33 Emma Taylor: The sweat– they won't necessarily see that. The dry [mouth] that you might have– ah, now that– we can speak about that– that's a separate thing. So when the symptoms aren't visible– as long as you go out there and you look at your audience and you give them a nice smile, and you take your time– you keep that introduction nice and slow, and you've warmed up, so you're not going to trip on your first line– which would be dreadful– then five minutes later that adrenaline will pass, and everyone will think, isn't she fantastic– and you were, from the start, you know– that's easy. So yes, you can absolutely fake it– and I think you should.

00:31:16 Aleksandra King: Okay– and of course the more you do it, the less daunting it becomes as well.

00:31:20 Emma Taylor: And I think that's the problem for so many people that come to me– is that they're only doing it once or twice a year, so it does become such an exceptional–

00:31:29 Aleksandra King: It's a big deal.

00:31:30 Emma Taylor: –occasion. When, though, the symptoms are visible– now that's something different, because you feel the–

00:31:39 Aleksandra King: Going– yes– anxious. Lots of people have it, and I have had it in my life.

00:31:44 Emma Taylor: Yeah. I think in those situations I would ask a friend– a good friend– to tell you how red it is. So if you're not particularly red, then you can get away with it. But I know when I was at drama school– there was a girl– woman now– girl on my course, and before she'd go on stage she was scarlet– and you could actually see it rise from her neck to her hairline. It died down quite quickly. But people who sweat a lot, or who have the shaky– the jittery hands– now with the sweats and the red face, I would say if it bothers you– that you know your nerves are betraying you– then the best thing to do is probably to draw attention to it yourself, and say, now look, you can probably see I've gone a bit heavy-handed with the blusher– this has nothing to do with the fact that my heart is racing presently– and they'll– they'll know it, you know. Address it– maybe make a virtue of it. And then with the hands– the shaking hands– use them. If you can, sort of press out the shake by making some nice sharp gestures, as I'm doing now– you get rid of that shake.

00:33:06 Aleksandra King: Interesting.

00:33:06 Emma Taylor: So that's– make the sharp gestures, make the small fists– and then as that calms down, you can relax and make more natural gestures.

00:33:16 Aleksandra King: Oh, that's interesting. Okay– so you can possibly address it. Okay– and what's your go-to three-part formula for a talk that people actually remember?

00:33:28 Emma Taylor: Oh– I'm not sure I've got a three-part formula. Well, I think a good opening and close– and something that's bold. Now, that means you're taking a risk, and lots of people are nervous to do that– you know, to end with the story– just to end in such a way that–

00:33:51 Aleksandra King: Yeah– a punch.

00:33:52 Emma Taylor: Something that they're not quite expecting– that is inspiring. I think that's really important. I think that everything you're stating– or maybe asking for– needs to be plausible.

00:34:09 Aleksandra King: Okay.

00:34:13 Emma Taylor: Yeah– you don't– you always think, yeah, right, well– nice idea, but that will never work– saying something irrelevant– maybe run it by someone before, if possible– bit of market research, I would call it. And the other thing I would say is always come in slightly under time. You know, if you're given 30 minutes to speak– speak for 25. It's not a test of endurance– no one's going to tell you off if you haven't filled every single second. Make it a really good 25 minutes– and then if they want to ask questions, they can– and no one ever begrudges having a slightly longer coffee break, in my experience.

00:34:53 Aleksandra King: That's good advice too– that's good advice. And for the modern Zoomers who want to use a PowerPoint presentation– and we hear the saying, death by PowerPoint– and I do use PowerPoints, you know, for clients and things, and the people that work with me use them– but I'm always afraid of the PowerPoints, because I find them very boring, and I try and keep them very minimal.

00:35:19 Emma Taylor: Are we talking about on Zoom now?

00:35:20 Aleksandra King: Yeah– well, Zoom, yeah. So you're presenting– you know, also it doesn't matter, in real life as well– but you've got that PowerPoint, because you have to show a graph or you want to show some statistics– or, well–

00:35:29 Emma Taylor: I mean, my view is– for a graph, statistics, a table, a photo– if it's going to add value to your point, then it's absolutely fine– in fact, go for it– why wouldn't you? What I'm not so keen on is– let's imagine we've got that Zoom presentation, and the second the presenter says hello– bam– we're in the Zoom, and they become that tiny box. No– don't do that. You be present– you fill that screen– and then, just five minutes in, then go and open a couple of slides, talk around there, then get back out again and take up the space.

00:36:10 Aleksandra King: Yeah– because, I mean, imagine if we had a big PowerPoint here, and like, these are the– these are the three things we're going to discuss today– we're going to discuss– and read it all– bullet point one– bullet point two– it's just– you want to almost die from the boredom of that. I don't know– it just– kills something about it.

00:36:26 Emma Taylor: It– it is– I mean, I don't think it's a terrible tool, though– but I think it's about you being in control of it, not it controlling you– and you just bring it in now and again, when it's enhancing and adding value to the point.

00:36:40 Aleksandra King: Okay. And how can you make technical information– difficult, complicated– you know, people that deal with finances and heavy facts– how can you make that interesting, in a public speaking kind of way? You are presenting, now, numbers and graphs– how does that–

00:36:57 Emma Taylor: Yeah, that can be really– I mean, I think it depends on the audience. Generally, people who are presenting that information are presenting it to an expert audience– so I think in that context it doesn't matter. It's when they are presenting it to more of a novice audience– that then they've got to think about how they're going to go about it– and I think that's where a good analogy can come in. So that instead of the– break it up– information on the mortgage– they can give us that information and then put it into a different world, so that we can see how it works in that world– and then continue– what's nice is, continue with that analogy a little bit into the presentation. So a bit like, you know, a stand-up comedian will often do a callback at the end of their set, where they refer to an observation that they made much earlier on in the set– and that's something that you can do with a good analogy or a metaphor in a presentation. I also think a nice simile can just– I mean, it's a very light touch, here and there– an original simile can really brighten a presentation. I remember seeing Victoria Coren Mitchell once open up– well– a series of Only Connect– and I think she described it– she said, a quiz as hard as butter that's fresh out of the fridge.

00:38:27 Aleksandra King: Oh, I hate that.

00:38:28 Emma Taylor: And that was, again, a nice simile– because we all know that dragging at your bread– and– oh– but that's what I mean– think about it– can you bring in a simile that can just lighten a point? It will stop their presentation from being so boring and dry.

00:38:46 Aleksandra King: And again, you're considering your audience– which is the first thing you said. Save them– just a little bit of light relief.

00:38:53 Emma Taylor: It's a relief from these terribly boring facts– give– give everyone a break.

00:38:57 Aleksandra King: And they want their coffee. Okay– so on Zoom– whatever you might use, whatever technology– should your camera always be on, or is it rude to have it switched off?

00:39:07 Emma Taylor: Oh, I would never have it off if I'm giving a presentation– I just–

00:39:12 Aleksandra King: And even if I'm just in a meeting–

00:39:14 Emma Taylor: In a meeting– yeah, I still– I would always put my camera on.

00:39:17 Aleksandra King: You see, the younger generation like to have it off.

00:39:20 Emma Taylor: Yes, they do.

00:39:22 Aleksandra King: They switch it off. It's like– I– yeah– that's– maybe it's generational. I just think it's a bit– it's a bit rude.

00:39:30 Emma Taylor: I think it's rude. And it helps– I suppose– I just think it helps the speaker. You know that listeners control the quality of a speaker's speech? So let's imagine you ask me what I was doing at the weekend– and then, as I tell you, you're looking around the room, or behind my shoulder–

00:39:49 Aleksandra King: I see– yeah– see if there's anybody else more interesting here than me.

00:39:53 Emma Taylor: Now– now that's going to–

00:39:54 Aleksandra King: It's just rude– it's horrible.

00:39:56 Emma Taylor: Yeah– that's going to change my ability to communicate. Suddenly I'm going to phase out, because I'm thinking, she's not particularly interested–

00:40:03 Aleksandra King: She's not interested.

00:40:04 Emma Taylor: And that's what I think about the camera– just put it on, and show that you are interested.

00:40:09 Aleksandra King: Yes– and also switch the microphone off, maybe, when there's background sounds, right?

00:40:16 Emma Taylor: Yeah, exactly– I think– I think so. Keep it off.

00:40:20 Aleksandra King: You know, there are people like that in real life, where they're always looking– you know, they say hi– oh, hi– and– oh– is that– looking beyond you.

00:40:27 Emma Taylor: I know.

00:40:28 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I think, you know, for me it was really interesting switching to the podcasting world– because I grew up, as I said, doing public speaking, and I love that, because I love to see the audience– I love adding something fun into their lives and making them laugh– or just– it's giving them energy– just– I love the notion of entertaining the crowd. I just love the crowd. And then– but with this, you don't see them. You don't see– I know from the stats– okay– like the demographic, and I know the countries and things like that– but I don't really know. And I mean– how do you find that– it's a bit sort of– for a public speaker, it's a different way to operate, isn't it, when you're not seeing your audience?

00:41:17 Emma Taylor: No– but I think– I think they can still feel quality and care, you know– and do your preparation. You thought about the qu– you've not just sort of raced in here– you've thought about the questions that you were going to ask me– you sent them to me– I've considered it– I've considered them– what they might find useful. I think as long as you can put in that quality of care, in your preparation and in the delivery– no, you can't see them– but I suppose you'll know from figures whether it's hitting the spot or not.

00:41:49 Aleksandra King: Yeah– you'll know– you'll know what topics they find interesting. So I guess that's a little bit different. You know, you've got– yeah– some of the really huge mega-podcasters now, today– they'll know that, for example, health is a mega topic– and that if you put controversial headlines out there, then– do this or you'll die, you know– then that's really going to– you know–

00:42:14 Emma Taylor: But draw them in.

00:42:16 Aleksandra King: Yeah– it's the old clickbait, isn't it? It's a bit of a different– it's not as– yeah, it's not as honest, or clean– or, you know, as a one-to-one. You know, even now in business, as much as possible I will always go and see the person and sit with them and touch base– and we'll have millions of these Zooms– all the time, every day, all the time, no problem– but I just feel that that personal connection, you know– nothing can ever beat that.

00:42:49 Emma Taylor: Yeah. Well, it's– it's that, isn't it– you're not going to get a round of applause with a podcast, as you do when you give that 30-minute speech. And yes– I understand that it possibly then feels a bit deflating– but as long as you're getting some– that's– that's the–

00:43:11 Aleksandra King: It's not so much deflating, because I love it– I know that it's still entertainment. It's just that you're not getting that hit– I'm not seeing them, so I'm not seeing the reaction– and then I've got to look to analytics– for the analytics to tell the reaction– whereas, like, you know, when you've got your audience, you can tell immediately exactly how it's going.

00:43:29 Emma Taylor: You can read them.

00:43:30 Aleksandra King: You read them– you get a giggle from them– yeah– spontaneous clap here and there.

00:43:36 Emma Taylor: And also you get giggles in places where you didn't expect them– you thought, oh– I didn't realise that was– that was as funny as– it's clearly landed.

00:43:44 Aleksandra King: So is it okay to read off notes? I have a lot of questions that I've just asked, and I can't– I just cannot memorise them all– it's just me, my brain– but yeah, I can't memorise these all, and I want to refer to the detail within them. So is that okay– or is that considered rude– or what are your thoughts?

00:44:03 Emma Taylor: No, it's absolutely okay– given the context– it's not like your eyes are glued to your phone for– you know– it's just a prompt, isn't it– and then talking. Yeah– I think notes are absolutely fine. In fact, for some types of speech, I think it's fine to have it written out full-hand and almost read it– but sight-read it– so you're coming up and you're seeing your audience. So if someone's to give, say, a maiden speech in the House of Commons, they'll probably want the entirety of that speech– because if your mind suddenly does go blank, it's going to be very tough to rec–

00:44:41 Aleksandra King: Yeah– it's going to be really tough to recover from that.

00:44:44 Emma Taylor: Recover– yeah. Whereas if I'm seeing a 20-minute or 10-minute sales pitch, and someone is absolutely glued to their notes– that's not going to give me much confidence, because I'm thinking, they should absolutely know about their product. They should be able, if they are using a few slides, to refer to them– but just talk to me.

00:45:06 Aleksandra King: Yeah– that's the thing– you should know that information– but if you're referring to it as a prompt–

00:45:12 Emma Taylor: Prompt– yeah. And also, people often have more prompts than they need. Sometimes I look at people's prompt cards and it's absolutely loaded with– I mean, it's just fully written– and if it's so fully written, you can't see the prompt. So on a prompt card you just need to have three bullet points– three words that trigger you, rather than sentences.

00:45:40 Aleksandra King: That's a good tip, actually. Do you know– we were talking about the podcasters– so I know that some of the podcasters who do– a lot of the polit– ones that love politics– and political ones– so especially the American podcasters– I know that they've got a teleprompter. You can see the eyes a little bit– but they give these really long, you know, 20-minute speeches– I would– it is a speech– to the camera. They have to know all of these figures that they're listing– and it's normally statistics, and it's a lot of facts– and there's no way on earth that you would know that without– so they are looking at the screen, and they're reading at their pace. And I know the politicians do that as well.

00:46:16 Emma Taylor: So when you say– in that whole speech– that's what you mean?

00:46:21 Aleksandra King: Yes– it's an on– yeah.

00:46:22 Emma Taylor: Okay– yeah– oh, that's interesting.

00:46:26 Aleksandra King: And I suppose it's also the modern way of doing it now, when you've got that kind of thing.

00:46:30 Emma Taylor: And I know that with politicians, when they get up and they do their– a lot of them, not all– it's a part of conference season now– and a lot– they'll have that on a teleprompter. I mean, Ed Davey gave his a few days ago– the start of the week– and he made it look like he wasn't using a teleprompter– it was there, in the corner. But then, famously, in the past– well, not recent past– David Cameron, when he became the Conservative leader, did so partly on the strength of his ability to stand in front of the conference for 45 minutes and give a speech without– he didn't use anything– and you have to think, you know, it takes balls to do that– but then, what do you want your leader to have?

00:47:22 Aleksandra King: And in some ways it's a silly thing, because it's all just a memory game– but people were so impressed that he could do that. But you know what I think– if it's a– if it's that– the speech– the speech that we'll talk about in a minute– the wedding speeches– if it's the speech that you're giving, and you're now going to become party leader, and it's everything that you passionately believe in– I would hope that you're not reading that off. I would– I would hope, you know, that that's coming fully from the brain and heart.

00:47:54 Emma Taylor: However– well, the danger is– sorry to interrupt– the danger is, I think the year after, then– Miliband– not David Miliband, the other one– oh, I've forgotten his name– he'll come to me in a second– anyway, he was then Labour Party leader, and he gave a speech at conference, and he did the David Cameron trick– only he went and missed sections, because he didn't have the teleprompt.

00:48:19 Aleksandra King: Ed Mili–

00:48:20 Emma Taylor: So– so that's the danger.

00:48:24 Aleksandra King: I see. Because the– the podcast– this is something that they're doing every single day, so it's a bit much to– you know, you couldn't possibly–

00:48:32 Emma Taylor: No.

00:48:32 Aleksandra King: And– and all the questions– I've got three of these, you know, in a row– I'm– how– you know– so you can't. But if it's your life speech– but let's talk about life speeches– wedding speech. Lots of people need to prepare one. How do you even begin? How do you structure it, to make sure that people go, that was a great speech?

00:48:52 Emma Taylor: Right. Well, first of all, I think know what the rules of your speech are. So for a father of the bride– they need to think about, what are they doing there? Well, they're there to welcome everybody– to welcome the groom into their family– to do a bit of a sales job on their daughter– and to wish the couple well. The groom speech– now, this is interesting, of course, because it needn't be a groom's speech– really it's the couple's speech– and in the last few years I've had the couple come to me, because they've decided, we're going to give that as a couple. So for the couple speech– really, again, that's about them thanking parents– anybody that's paid towards the day– people that have helped– the bridesmaids, the groomsmen– and then it's nice when they can talk about one another, and tell us why they are the perfect– the perfect fit–

00:49:49 Aleksandra King: Romantic.

00:49:49 Emma Taylor: And then traditionally their toast should be towards the bridesmaids– and that's nice to do, to the wedding party, when it is the couple that are giving the speech– so we can have the bridesmaids toasted and the groomsmen toasted as well. Traditionally, that's the way that should happen. And then, of course, then– best man's speech.

00:50:13 Aleksandra King: Scary– scary for the bride. What's going to come out of this?

00:50:18 Emma Taylor: He just sort of does– does a few thank-yous, and then tells everybody why his best friend or brother is a catch, and is ready for this– and why– off to the wild days– and why he knows that this union will be a success. And then, again, his toast is to both couples. So– sorry– I think it really is just about knowing, what should your speech cover– because so many meander and get into other territory, which isn't good. I mean, I've seen a father of the bride speech where the father of the bride ended up talking about all the motorcycle trips he'd been on round Europe with his brother in the 70s and 80s– I mean, it went literally– direction– I mean, this went on for ages.

00:51:11 Aleksandra King: And then– awful– he literally ruined the wedding.

00:51:14 Emma Taylor: Ruined the– the grooms' men's speeches– who– because they think, oh, this is the moment I'll tell my bride how much I love her– they also start telling their mother, their brother– it just becomes an excuse to– to tell everybody how–

00:51:27 Aleksandra King: Drunk by then–

00:51:27 Emma Taylor: Exactly– it can be over– so people are going, ah– they're thinking, stop it.

00:51:34 Aleksandra King: Yeah– cringey.

00:51:36 Emma Taylor: So, yeah– understanding the rules, keeping it short, keeping it original. People know when you've lifted a joke off the internet. The best jokes are those that come from actual stories that are true– or misunderstandings– so, the groom thought this, meanwhile the bride's thinking that– and we've learned about this, and there's a discrepancy– that's where you can really mine some original humour.

00:51:59 Aleksandra King: Okay– gosh, a lot goes into it. Funerals– I mean, how difficult it must be to get up and do a speech when you're feeling that down. I mean, what are the dos and don'ts of a– of a speech at a funeral?

00:52:16 Emma Taylor: Right– so I think, if it's a real close relative, it is nice for you to write the speech. Don't put the pressure on yourself to deliver it, though. If you think it's going to be too much– then have a good friend who understands your voice– so when they read the speech, they'll be able to read it in your voice. Have that person on hand– so that if you decide it's too much, somebody else can do it for you. Equally, do know that if you have a moment where you break down and you just have to stop– you just stop. You stop– you blow your nose– you rally– you continue. Nobody cares– nobody thinks any less of you.

00:53:04 Aleksandra King: Okay. We spoke a little bit earlier about maybe the lack of teaching public speaking in schools– you don't see much of it– not that many opportunities– it might be the odd school play that you do once. Do you think that that's the case? Do you think they should be actively teaching public speaking as part of, let's say, the English curriculum– getting up, presenting– do you think they should?

00:53:27 Emma Taylor: Oh– I don't think it would hurt at all. It wouldn't hurt, would it? I'm not an English teacher, so I don't know exactly what is covered on the curriculum– but when I was at school, every year we had to, as part of English, recite a poem and deliver a 10-minute speech. This was– this was something that happened in class– and then you'd go through to speech day– and that was really great practice. You learned so much from doing that. Also, my school was an all-girls school, and I think that really helped me– and this definitely– girls were given the floor– and I think in mixed settings they're probably not given the floor so much. The boys tend to speak more– and then teachers will often invite those boys to speak in order to control them and discipline– you know, it's a case of, right, Tommy– if there's something you want to share– if they're being naughty– please share that with the class– what did you think to that? The questions are being directed at the boys more than they are the girls– just because the girls are less likely to misbehave. And then that follows through– and then, when they get into the world of work, women have then become conditioned to be quiet, and not be heard in that public space. So yes– I think the more that can be done, the better. And also, for adults– just keep practising. Every opportunity you have– even if it's in a restaurant– ask things– to speak to strangers–

00:54:59 Aleksandra King: Oh, definitely.

00:55:00 Emma Taylor: You know, if it's a friend's 40th– do take a little speech along. The more you can do in day-to-day life, you'll improve– just to send your voice out there.

00:55:11 Aleksandra King: My dad is such an extrovert, and he's a terrific public speaker. One thing I have noticed that he does– sometimes it's a bit annoying, I have to say– but he does speak to people– like, random strangers– and he'll strike up a conversation and speak to– you know– it is also cultural things– you've got to be careful which country– but he does tend to speak to people he doesn't know– and then, you know, in a nice way– and then they respond– and he has all these practices– the one-on-ones and things– and that also helps you to be a better speaker, doesn't it?

00:55:41 Emma Taylor: Oh, gosh, yeah– not feeling self-conscious to do that. The art of conversation– I mean, I think that's probably what will need to be taught in schools– as people– you know, kids are on their phones–

00:55:55 Aleksandra King: The art of conversation.

00:55:56 Emma Taylor: Conversation– and then suddenly– yes– they are thrown into a networking situation– and there– it's not– you can't go and hide into your phone– you've got to go up and speak to people. I mean, it's so easy as well– just ask a few questions.

00:56:12 Aleksandra King: I suppose– a few questions.

00:56:14 Emma Taylor: Apparently the Queen would always say, when she was at events– what keeps you busy? Or, what keeps you busy? And you think, well, that's great– because it doesn't matter what anyone does– you're not being a career sniffer and saying, what do you do–

00:56:30 Aleksandra King: It's not, what do you do.

00:56:33 Emma Taylor: Yeah– you're just saying, so what keeps you busy? And if somebody is unemployed, but they're a terrific darts player– they're going to tell you about their darts. If they're a stay-at-home mum, but they've got into knitting– they'll tell you all about that. If they are a CEO– it doesn't matter. But it's a really nice way in.

00:56:52 Aleksandra King: And it takes us right back to the beginning– which is, you're considering the other person.

00:56:56 Emma Taylor: The other person– yeah– take– take the pressure off yourself, all the time, by considering them– being a host– how are they feeling– how can you make them feel better?

00:57:08 Aleksandra King: Emma, you've been terrific– absolutely terrific. I've loved every second, and I've absorbed it like a little sponge– and I hope that everyone else watching– that you've taken something from this– and that we're all better speakers, and better in the art of conversation.

00:57:24 Emma Taylor: Ah– lovely.

00:57:25 Aleksandra King: Amazing– thank you so much.

00:57:26 Emma Taylor: Brilliant– thanks, Aleksandra.