Why Getting Rejected Can Be the Best Thing to Happen to You | Michelle Niziol

Cold open

Aleksandra's spoken introduction, ending over the title music.

00:00:00 Aleksandra King: In this episode I interview Michelle Niziol, who was actually on the same series of The Apprentice as I was. Now, I might have been a little bit responsible for Michelle getting fired in week one– however, Michelle isn't bothered, because Michelle is running at least seven businesses, she has won multiple awards. We go into everything about The Apprentice, and how to succeed in business as a woman. We discuss mental health, we discuss what it's like to be a woman in business, and winning respect– peaceful success. So tune in.

Interview

00:00:39 Aleksandra King: Michelle, welcome to the podcast.

00:00:42 Michelle Niziol: Thank you for–

00:00:43 Aleksandra King: I am so happy to have you in. I'll tell you the main reason I'm really happy is because you're proving everyone wrong. You've gone out in week one on The Apprentice, but look at you– six, seven businesses that you're running, successful businesswoman. Lord Sugar must be crying– crying. What happened?

00:01:04 Michelle Niziol: I was shocked to go out in week one, but at the same time I've made the most of it.

00:01:09 Aleksandra King: Right, so let's go back a little bit. Why did you apply in the first place?

00:01:14 Michelle Niziol: I've run businesses since my early 20s, and you know, you could probably relate to this– it's really lonely, and I was a female running businesses. So there wasn't– back then, I certainly wasn't the only female entrepreneur, but there wasn't many of us, certainly where I live– in quite a small market town. So I did it because I was lonely, you know, because I really wanted to mix with other entrepreneurs and gauge myself against, you know, how am I doing– because from a very early age I've been the boss, so it's like, how can you compare yourself against other business owners? Where– you go and put yourself through the biggest TV show, you know, in the country, and see. So for me it was a challenge– could I actually get on the show, and then how could I do on the show?

00:02:05 Aleksandra King: So besides feeling that, you know, you were a bit different, what in your personality– really, just be honest– gave you the courage to do this?

00:02:15 Michelle Niziol: I'm super competitive, so you know, if I'm going to do something, I'm going through this process to win it, right? What people don't actually know is I did actually apply for the show– was it– it was the Olympic year, so actually– yeah, I don't think you knew that, did you?

00:02:32 Aleksandra King: No, I didn't.

00:02:33 Michelle Niziol: Hadn't made it through at that point– as you know, you never know you're on the show until you're on the show, right? But I'd made it through a few rounds, and I thought, you know what, I don't think I'm ready for this right now. I didn't apply again until– was it about six years later– and I just had this gut feeling. So I actually applied for The Apprentice five minutes before it closed– right, so literally I think it was– midnight was the closing time, and I just had this– I didn't even know that the applications were out again, and I just come across it online– on social media, I think it was– and I just knew that I was going to be a candidate, so I just applied. I know these things– I just– it was just a gut– I said on the show– spoke to– I spoke to a couple of other of the ex-candidates, and you just know.

00:03:25 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:03:26 Michelle Niziol: You just know. I did my application and I thought, I'm in.

00:03:29 Aleksandra King: So how did you find the interview process? You said difficult.

00:03:34 Michelle Niziol: I wish everyone could experience it, because it was the hardest thing that I've ever had to do. You know, I remember having the [unclear: UHS?] meeting with a psychologist, and I nearly didn't do the show– I nearly pulled out– and the psychologist really put me through my paces, because she said, do you, Michelle, put your baby to bed every night? And I said, absolutely I do. And she said, he's not even going to know who you are in the 12-week process. And that– I was just like, I can't. I went home and spoke to my husband and said, I can't do this– like, I can't do it. And he said, you are doing it– because literally, like, you– I'm not going to put up with you going, I could have got on the show, I could have got on the show. But yeah, I nearly didn't do it because of that.

00:04:17 Aleksandra King: What feelings did you experience when you got on the show?

00:04:21 Michelle Niziol: It was quite emotional. You know, I was made a project manager on the first task–

00:04:27 Aleksandra King: You were indeed.

00:04:28 Michelle Niziol: Yeah, that's how I got fired.

00:04:30 Aleksandra King: But never be project manager on the–

00:04:32 Michelle Niziol: No, never be project manager on the first time. But you know, I was super emotional that day– so we had a wake-up call at like 3:00am, and I'd literally not slept the night before, and I remember waking up, going into the bathroom, doing my makeup, and thinking, what have I let myself in for, you know– serious.

00:04:53 Aleksandra King: Overwhelming, isn't it? Overwhelming.

00:04:55 Michelle Niziol: Yeah, the whole pro– I mean, the whole process is set up to absolutely test you, and I think again, what people don't see is– we make silly mistakes on that show, because you are literally pushed to your limits.

00:05:06 Aleksandra King: Well, I think we make silly mistakes on the show, but the show is also– it's a TV production, I think– which– there is business within that, but it's also there for entertainment. So obviously the stress that's created, and the scenarios, that– the pressure that you're put under is deliberate, to kind of, you know– and the lack of family contact– it's all deliberate, to stress you out, which would never have in real life.

00:05:30 Michelle Niziol: But I did enjoy it– I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the filming. I absolutely loved getting to know the production team– you know, that was my favourite part– is I love creative people. So you know, and in my world, in my job, in my industry, it's very much professional services– so it's finance– so yes, there are some people with creativity, but it's not the same as being around people that are making a TV show, and that was, for me– that was a blessing. I absolutely loved it, and hence why, since that show, I've gone on to do as much TV and media work that I possibly can do, because I just absolutely love the process.

00:06:13 Aleksandra King: OK, so what did you think of some of the other candidates? Let's be honest now.

00:06:17 Michelle Niziol: I thought some obviously have got huge characters. I wasn't there to be a celebrity– I've never wanted to be a celebrity, I've got zero interest in it. I think when you go on a show like that you do attract a lot of media attention, but that's not why I did it– I did it for the experience. Whereas I think there was some people on the show that obviously went in different– I think some people wanted to go in for celebrity.

00:06:42 Aleksandra King: And do you think they were chosen and selected with that in mind– that these are the celebrity people, these are business people– still, do you think? So are– still smart business people?

00:06:51 Michelle Niziol: I think every– and I think that's another thing that people don't understand about the show– every single candidate you would have employed in your business.

00:06:58 Aleksandra King: You know, that's right. You know, I agree with this– which is why I wanted this platform as well– because it's true, every single person that was there had something– there was something to them. Either they were incred– actually, most were good at sales– let's be clear, everyone could sell– you wouldn't make it on the show if you can't sell– but they all had some sort of business acumen. And some were crazier than others, some were more, you know, professional, let's say, some were a little bit more out there– but they all had something.

00:07:23 Michelle Niziol: The crazy thing for me to watch was– in the house, everybody's your mate, and then when it's filming, we're ruthless with each other– and the switch is immediate. And I found that brilliant, because actually, that's what I'm like in my business life– is right, in business you have to turn it on sometimes, and actually be someone that you're probably not, quite naturally. So you know, my husband always says he never would have married business Michelle– you know, he would have married Shelly. And I think that was the same dynamics on the show– was when we were in the house, we're all friends, we're all getting on, we all have a glass of wine with each other.

00:07:59 Aleksandra King: I have a slightly different take on that, in that I am– I treat– I'm very much like– my business, my clients, you know, whoever I'm working with– even professionally, when I was working for people, and now that I have my own business– I treat everyone in a similar way. I do have this thing where it's all family to me, and when someone's close to me– the clients are close to me, I bring them into my network. And I did find that odd– the turning– but I kind of expected it, let's say, from some of the candidates. It's not necessarily what I would do, though.

00:08:31 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– I mean, I don't mean that– I'm still a really nice person at work, it's just I'm a lot fiercer, I would say. That's not necessarily with clients– it's with– I think if you show any sign of weakness, say, with–

00:08:46 Aleksandra King: You show it to the candidates, you're finished.

00:08:48 Michelle Niziol: Yeah, exactly. And I think that, you know, sadly, I've had to have a different type of facade– where I'm an absolute real softy at heart, you know. So I found it– difficult– in business, you have to make decisions that not everybody likes– so that's sort of what I mean. So clients get to know almost Shelly– and actually, in the business world, you know– because otherwise people are coming after your business, people are coming after your clients, you know– and sadly, I've had to behave in a way where you're very clear, you're very direct–

00:09:21 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:09:22 Michelle Niziol: –so that people can't misunderstand or misinterpret what you're saying, or where you're coming from. Whereas at home, I'm not like that at all– I'm super fun and relaxed.

00:09:33 Aleksandra King: Of course. And also, when you're working with clients, a lot of these relationships last years, hopefully– that's the goal– you know, five, six, seven, eight, ten years– and they get to know you.

00:09:45 Michelle Niziol: The majority of my clients have been with me 20 years, you know– which is crazy.

00:09:49 Aleksandra King: Awesome.

00:09:50 Michelle Niziol: Been with me through my journey, and I think they've loved watching my journey. I think that they're super proud that they've been a part of that, you know. And also, I think the comments that I get quite a lot is– it hasn't gone to my head, and I'm super grounded.

00:10:03 Aleksandra King: And you are grounded.

00:10:05 Michelle Niziol: You know, whether– you know, even the clients where I might be doing like a 25 grand mortgage, I treat them exactly the same than a client where I'm doing a 5 million pound mortgage. So although the difference in the money is obviously huge, every client to me is important, and every client feels like they're my only client– and that's what I've managed to retain, to be able to do– and I think that is probably one of the secrets of the success of me running my businesses. You know, some of these clients have dealt with me ten times over in the 20-year period, and I don't think for a second that they're going to stay with me again– one minute you're right at the top, next minute you're right down there. It can– business is a risk, it just is– anything can change, and also with your health, things like that. So you can never allow that sort of arrogance and complacency– I don't think there's a place for that in business. You've got to be prepared for the roller coaster– but it's– that's what I love about business. So there was a few things I had to sort out on the way up here, where– emergencies, where, you know, clients have found a property and they desperately need something sorting right there and then– so then I'm calling around the agents and things– and I think it's that that keeps me going.

00:11:15 Aleksandra King: Do you think– do you think you're addicted to stress?

00:11:18 Michelle Niziol: I think I handle stress really well. I don't try and see it as stress– I try and see it as a challenge, and it's how to overcome those challenges. And yes, I've worked with therapists, I've worked with psychologists– I would definitely recommend– everybody needs therapy, even if you don't think you need therapy.

00:11:37 Aleksandra King: So you worked with a therapist to help you manage stress? So they've taught you techniques to help you?

00:11:44 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– and it's all about controlling the way your thought process– and actually, also controlling– that you can't control other people's thought processes.

00:11:52 Aleksandra King: Oh, that's a huge–

00:11:53 Michelle Niziol: That was huge for me– huge, that was–

00:11:56 Aleksandra King: And actually, because it's so tempting.

00:11:58 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– and actually, it was working with a therapist that made me realise that– because my expectation levels on myself are so high– you know, incredibly high– that I'm never going to meet them. That's my issue– that's it. And so– expectations on myself were super high, so expectations on my team were super high–

00:12:18 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:12:18 Michelle Niziol: –and actually, working with a therapist made me see that good is good enough– and they work for me for a reason, you know, in the sense that they're amazing– but I have to lower my expectations in the sense of– of them–

00:12:34 Aleksandra King: You mean of them?

00:12:35 Michelle Niziol: And– and of myself sometimes– because otherwise, if your expectations are so high, you'll never– you're always going to feel defeated. I think if I can deliver anything to any entrepreneur, male or female, it is– you have to work on yourself. So I've always been– you know, personal development's always been higher on my agenda– and really looking at, what is it that I can improve on personally, you know. And so I've always gone into therapy sessions and– God, oh my goodness, I've done this– or, I think this about this person– or, you know, can you please work with me on– to– you know, I mean, the therapists have said they've never met anyone so honest or self-aware. And I think– I think most people's issues, that I've come across, is the fact that they're not self-aware– and that actually, you will find it difficult to change unless you address the issues that you have. So– therapy.

00:13:26 Aleksandra King: Interesting– totally interesting, and something that I'm definitely going to look into. You're on The Apprentice– you got on– brilliant– interview process for all those months– you get in, you're buzzing, excited, competitive– but then you get fired in week one. How did you take that?

00:13:43 Michelle Niziol: Not very well. I was just completely shocked. And also, when I was going into the boardroom, I think a couple of people– you know, a couple of people in the production team had gone, Michelle, you got this– you ain't going anywhere.

00:13:57 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:13:58 Michelle Niziol: So of course, I'd gone really cocky, if I'm being honest– so, really cocky– didn't say too much, because I genuinely thought that he had a plan– he knew what the plan was, and I wasn't going anywhere. He–

00:14:11 Aleksandra King: You mean Lord Sugar?

00:14:12 Michelle Niziol: Yeah. And actually, that was the biggest mistake that I made– again, learning from that in business is– don't ever be complacent, don't ever take things for granted. So I'd sort of gone in and not really done too much in the boardroom– so when he fired me, it just felt absolutely– yeah, I was in absolute shock. So it was the ne– I think it was the next morning I get my phone back– and so I ring my– my husband was obviously the first call that I made–

00:14:42 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:14:42 Michelle Niziol: –and he was like, oh, thank God for that– because, like, literally, being at home dealing– needed– yeah, he needed me. And so, you know, obviously a week was enough for him– so he was like, well done– like, really proud of you, but so glad you're coming home. And then I rang my little sister– and she works for me in my businesses, and she is like literally my biggest supporter– and I rang her, and she was just like screaming– she was like, oh my God, you know, Lord Sugar stopped the show– because he knows– he's seen you, and he's made you the winner already, after one week. And I was just like– I was like, Lindsay, honestly, he hasn't– I've been kicked out. But she's so believed in me.

00:15:24 Aleksandra King: So sweet.

00:15:25 Michelle Niziol: And I love telling that story, because I'm just like– as if he's stopped filming.

00:15:30 Aleksandra King: So it sounds like you had the right support network around you– and then you sort of licked your wounds, didn't you, and then got up again.

00:15:37 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– do you know what– because obviously, you– you know, you're not allowed to tell anyone– and the close people that you are allowed to tell– so I told– a couple of people in my team were allowed to know, I think my accountant was allowed to know, and my immediate family– because obviously, you've got to make up a story as to where– why you're going to go away for three months and no one's going to see you. So obviously, I'd called the members of my team– and, you know, they were shocked, but obviously really chuffed that I'd done it. And then I couldn't see anyone for a couple of days– so, like, literally, I went home, spent a couple of days at home, just trying to, like, process–

00:16:11 Aleksandra King: Process.

00:16:12 Michelle Niziol: –and then I booked a holiday to Disney World straight away.

00:16:15 Aleksandra King: What a good idea.

00:16:15 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– so that's it– yeah, that was it. I was like– distraction.

00:16:19 Aleksandra King: Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's a tactic– I mean, instead of sitting there, sort of letting things get into your head too much, and sort of, you know– off you go to Disney World.

00:16:28 Michelle Niziol: Yeah. And actually, the producers were there, you know, helping me pack my stuff when I left the show– and they said something that has always stayed with me. They said, Michelle, you never appreciate what you've achieved so far in life. And it was after that that I got a therapist for the first time. Even if I'd have won, I think it would have been the same, you know– I've done it, I've achieved it, let's move on. So for ages– for probably a couple of years– I couldn't even talk about it.

00:16:57 Aleksandra King: Yeah– same, actually. Quite hard.

00:16:59 Michelle Niziol: Yeah, yeah. And now it's like, you know– no, that's a big part of my journey– I'm super proud of that journey. And it wasn't that I wasn't ever proud of it– it was just that, through therapy, I've learned that actually, living in the moment– and actually, I always wanted to be present– and I wanted to, you know– people would go, oh, but you're so successful– and I never felt successful, you know– I never felt like I'd achieved anything. So that's why I was always like, I'm done with that, let's move on– I've got to always go bigger and better.

00:17:31 Aleksandra King: I don't know– not everyone goes in with that mindset, though, to be fair– that, I'm going to win. Some going in and have the– obviously, I want to go in and be famous– I'm going– and, I'll go see how it goes. Not everyone is, I'm going to win.

00:17:42 Michelle Niziol: But obviously, the more competitive you are, the more you want to win. Yeah– for me, it was not an option not to win– and I think that's why I was so devastated when I– but week one– I think the thought process was, as you know– like, it wasn't my choice to be project manager, you know. My family– the only thing my family said to me when I went in was, do not be project manager week one. So I got voted to be project manager.

00:18:07 Aleksandra King: Yeah– you did.

00:18:08 Michelle Niziol: And, you know, I didn't ask for it– and actually spent hours deliberating– I was like, no, no, no, no. I think it was a tactic, because no one really wanted to be project manager.

00:18:18 Aleksandra King: Was very brave of you.

00:18:19 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– suppose that's a good– well, you know what, I thought– so in the end, I gave in– because I was like, you know what, if I am going to go out of this process, I'm going to go out leading from the front– because I am a leader– I'm a natural leader. And I thought, where I would have regretted the process is if I'd got kicked out and just been hiding around in the background– like, I'm not a background person.

00:18:43 Aleksandra King: Oh, no, no, no– you're definitely not.

00:18:44 Michelle Niziol: You know, for me, it was like– just sort of hanging around–

00:18:46 Aleksandra King: Yeah, yeah– hanging around, not doing anything, and hiding in the background until, like, week– you know, the end of the process. Terrible.

00:18:53 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– terrible. You know, that's not my style. So I was like, you know what– if I'm going to go, and I'm going to be fired, I'm going to be project manager– because that's the way to go out.

00:19:03 Aleksandra King: Yeah. So now that you've had your therapy– what has The Apprentice taught you about yourself?

00:19:09 Michelle Niziol: It taught me to slow down. So I was on the verge– the reason I got a therapist was– I was on the verge of setting up another business, which would have been my eighth company. And I actually– at this point, I'd had my daughter Isabella– and I thought, when the children are older– because you think, oh, you're doing it for them, all the time– it's just an excuse. For me, it was about not facing up to– actually, being a mum is really hard, you know– and running businesses, for me, was giving me self-, you know, gratification– and also, it meant that I didn't have to face up to– actually, being a parent is really hard– and I've not really, you know– no one teaches you how to be a parent, you know– there's no parents' school. And I remember sitting there one day, and just sort of going, you know– I don't want the kids to be 18 and gone, oh, hasn't Mum got a successful business– but actually, I've spent no time with her.

00:20:04 Aleksandra King: So hard, yeah.

00:20:05 Michelle Niziol: So that was the point. But being a mum wasn't natural for me– because all I'd ever known was this business treadmill of, you know, running businesses– and just, more, more, more, more, more. Not necessarily more money– that was the thing– it wasn't really about the money for me, it was about the success– and how, you know– I'd never felt good enough, genuinely. Now, I am a lot more present than I ever have been– I pick my children up from school, and it's just about, you know, being able to put them first– so that, obviously, when they are older–

00:20:41 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:20:41 Michelle Niziol: You know– you know, my parents– they had very successful careers– not entrepreneurial at all, but in the Civil Service– and I think, really, just– the trauma came from– when I was 17, they, you know– they sadly went through a divorce– they get on absolutely fine now, but there was a divorce– and then, you know, the trauma started with– we nearly lost our house. So it– it was on the brink of repossession–

00:21:09 Aleksandra King: OK.

00:21:09 Michelle Niziol: –and the car did get repossessed– and that was the car that I was driving.

00:21:12 Aleksandra King: Yeah– horrible.

00:21:14 Michelle Niziol: And that's the trauma– is that we'd lost absolutely everything. And I didn't have a choice– to– I had to drop out of A-levels– I had to get, you know– I worked three jobs– put a roof over mine and my little sister's head– and that's why we're so close, and she works with me in my businesses. And that's where the drive came from– and that's what I had to unpick– because my fear was always, like, that's never going to happen to me. So, you know, obviously, watching your parents go through that, where, you know, they nearly lost their house– and I think that's why I went into property and finance– is because your home is your castle– it's what makes me feel safe. So from, you know, that age, I was like– I wanted this big house–

00:21:58 Aleksandra King: Relate– yeah.

00:21:59 Michelle Niziol: You know, I wanted a big house, where I would feel safe.

00:22:03 Aleksandra King: It's your nest, yeah.

00:22:04 Michelle Niziol: It's your nest. And– and I think that's where– I think that's where my skill set comes in, in my job– because I've had that trauma.

00:22:12 Aleksandra King: So what's going through your head at that point– your divorce–

00:22:15 Michelle Niziol: This is never happening to me. So I waited till a lot later in life to have children– till I was financially secure. Also, you know, that's the reason for me setting up my businesses in property and fin– finances– to make sure that I was secure– make sure that every single one of my clients never went through that process of, you know, not having anything.

00:22:37 Aleksandra King: And you've got a personal reason, yeah– and trauma, in a way, that you've taken to become something positive that's driving you. I think also, ethically, morally– your values are in the right place.

00:22:49 Michelle Niziol: Yeah. So I thought, by setting up all these businesses, you know– then I would never go through the financial crisis that my parents went through. And so, sadly, I had to hire help– in therapy– to stop me from setting up businesses– because that's all I'd ever know–

00:23:06 Aleksandra King: It became a thing.

00:23:07 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– it became an addiction.

00:23:08 Aleksandra King: It became an addiction.

00:23:09 Michelle Niziol: It became an addiction– because, like, when you– when you've experienced that, you never want to go through that again. So my thing was– the only thing I knew– and I am really good at making money, you know– so my thing was, make money, make money, make money– it will– it will solve problems, and make me feel safe, you know. And now, getting off that treadmill, you know– and actually, I thought, if I get off this treadmill, then I'm not going to be successful any more– no one will think I'm successful if I don't set up another business, you know. And actually, then learning that– that actually– I think since doing that, and getting off that treadmill, and not setting up any more businesses– I'm focusing on the businesses that I've got– I think I've become more successful.

00:23:49 Aleksandra King: So let's– what businesses do you have? Let's list them.

00:23:51 Michelle Niziol: So, yeah– so I've got an estate agency–

00:23:55 Aleksandra King: Right.

00:23:55 Michelle Niziol: –a letting agency, a commercial mortgage brokerage, a residential mortgage brokerage, an insurance brokerage– and then I've got a portfolio– so, property portfolio building company– where, you know, I would build– buy you ten houses, and completely manage them for you.

00:24:12 Aleksandra King: That's insane– that's just crazy. So what qualities– what essential qualities do you need to possess, to be able to run a business successfully, do you think?

00:24:24 Michelle Niziol: I think number one is the passion for it. So you can see, you know, with my businesses– it's the passion to get you to own your own home– because that's what made me feel safe, and I know it'll make you feel safe. But so– so having the passion for it– there's absolutely no point in running a business– drives you, the energy– unless you are passionate about it– because there's going to be so many down times. So as long as you've got that, you know– the passion for what you're doing– whether it's, you know, hairdressing, or makeup artist, or photography– if you love it, and you're willing to put your all into it, then you're going to be successful.

00:24:59 Aleksandra King: Have you ever experienced a situation, over the years, running your own businesses, where being a woman has actually proven to be a hindrance in any way? Have you found that?

00:25:10 Michelle Niziol: Do you know what– I've been super lucky. I had, like, one job before I set up my own businesses, and that was in a completely male-dominated industry.

00:25:22 Aleksandra King: What was it? What–

00:25:23 Michelle Niziol: It was a roofing company. And I'm still– they're still my family to this day. So actually, they held me in such high regard that my journey into entrepreneurialism was actually really good– because I was a well-respected, very young female– I was almost like the most respected in that business, at such a young age– that gave me a bit of a false economy when it came to business. So when I moved into running my own business– apart from– people would walk into my office– especially older men–

00:25:56 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:25:56 Michelle Niziol: –and not take me seriously– initially.

00:26:00 Aleksandra King: How did you know they weren't taking you seriously?

00:26:02 Michelle Niziol: Just the questions that they'd ask– and they'd almost–

00:26:04 Aleksandra King: What, like–

00:26:05 Michelle Niziol: Just silly things– just testing your knowledge. So I've had– yeah, I've had a lot of men over the years that have basically gone, you need to prove that you know what you're talking about– but the minute then you know what you're talking about– and knowledge is power– then that all seemed to drop. But I've been quite lucky– I think it's because, you know– I don't– yeah, I haven't really put up with it. So the minute I clock that you don't think I know what I'm talking about– or you might be thinking, I've got daughters or granddaughters your age– I literally turn it on so much that they would then, in two minutes, know.

00:26:43 Aleksandra King: So it's not really lucky– it's not really lucky. And I love the way that you– again, you're coming at this from a position of control, in a positive way. You are controlling the narrative– and you see someone, and they're not really taking you seriously– and you take– you understand– you're aware of it– and then you turn it around– you're controlling that conversation. And also, you can't play the victim.

00:27:04 Michelle Niziol: No– I don't ever play the victim. You know, that is– that's on them. So their thought process being, oh, come on, what does Michelle know– it– I've always loved sales anyway–

00:27:15 Aleksandra King: Yeah.

00:27:15 Michelle Niziol: –and I've always loved proving you wrong.

00:27:17 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:27:18 Michelle Niziol: So the minute I clock that you think that, you know– I'm not– as you think I'm not good, or whatever, or I don't know what I'm talking about– oh, literally, I take pleasure out of making you realise that I do know what I'm talking about– and that I'm a formidable business person– I had– and, don't ever underestimate me, you know.

00:27:40 Aleksandra King: That's it. I had a similar situation in the IT industry–

00:27:43 Michelle Niziol: Yeah.

00:27:44 Aleksandra King: –where I started off in telecommunications, and billing, and analysis, and all these things– and I walked into the office, and it was literally 99% male consultants. And I walk in there, and it's like– well, you don't look like an IT person, you don't talk like an IT person– what do you know about IT? And that's when also the serious mode comes in– right, I'll show you.

00:28:04 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– I'll show you.

00:28:05 Aleksandra King: And then– and then they quickly learn, don't they, who they're dealing with. I don't really get upset about it, if it's a male or woman– because I think anyone's going to have their back up if you're asking them– you know, if you're trying to convince them to buy a car or whatever– oh, I don't– why would I want that car? It's the same thing. Maybe– I think women do get it a little bit hard, especially in male-dominated industries– like, you know, talk about roofing, con–

00:28:29 Michelle Niziol: It– that's fair. You have to work a little bit harder, maybe. Yeah– I think less now, because obviously, we're a bit more out there, and people are taking us a bit more seriously. But I've always loved it– I've always loved– I've always taken advantage of being the only female in the room, you know. I got a lot of business by doing that, sort of, many years ago– or, you know, people then will notice you, because you're not in a grey suit. So, you know, now– I think that, yeah, I think it's slightly easier for women now– but I've never seen it as a disadvantage– I've always seen it as a challenge.

00:29:04 Aleksandra King: What about the gender gap– persistent gender wage gap– that we've got going on?

00:29:10 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– I mean, running my own business, I've never really experienced that in a professional capacity– because I've, you know– I've had pretty much one job– and to be fair, he overpaid me– I wasn't– he was paying me way more money than I was actually worth at the time. So personally, I've not experienced it– but obviously, from what I've seen and heard in the press, I don't agree with it. You know, it's that– women, you know– we shouldn't be seen as women and men– we should be seen as, you know– can you do the job, can you deliver– irrelevant of who you are.

00:29:44 Aleksandra King: And I think women– you know, I've seen this in consulting– in the corporate world of consulting– you know, there's a floor full of consultants, and the men are earning basically double what the women are earning– same job, same everything. And I think, looking into it a bit more– I'm quite analytical about these things– and I've noticed that women aren't asking for as much money as men. Men are more confident– even though some of them might have even less skills, let's say– or even the same– even the same. Women aren't asking for as much as men, because they feel, oh, I'm not quite ready– they're perfectionists– they're kind of thinking, you know, I need to get into the job, then I'll ask for more– whereas men are more– a little bit more gutsy in that way. And I think women need to stop that.

00:30:27 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– and high– and you'll be surprised– you get it. But also, companies shouldn't be even waiting for them to ask, in my opinion– you know. I think– people talk– I– in a corporate world, you know– you might be a female, you might be sitting next to a male– like, companies need to take responsibility here, and go– irrelevant of gender, that is the pay.

00:30:49 Aleksandra King: They do ask– they do ask– and there's also a negotiation that goes on– because then they might present a salary, and then you can go, well, I– you know, I'm definitely worth more than that, because of– and this. And men are more likely to negotiate, I think– or they have been, traditionally– and I think women just need to take that position of power and go– well, actually, I am worth that– and I want to– I'm going to negotiate this, because I feel like I deserve that.

00:31:12 Michelle Niziol: But I do think it is employers' responsibilities as well. Like, I know my husband has a very large business– and I know that he– you know, the role is the role, and it is benchmark paid– and irrelevant of whether you're male or female, it's what you're bringing to the table. And he's really good at– you know, he doesn't have any gender pay issues in his business. And that's where I think, you know, companies do need to look at their own policies, and– and pay–

00:31:37 Aleksandra King: Have a look.

00:31:37 Michelle Niziol: Have a look– and just make sure that everyone– everyone on the same level, whether– irrelevant of gender– is paid, you know, the same. But yeah– that's women not, um– you know, like you said– not asking– and possibly believing that they're worth it– which, again, is another thing where we have to instil more confidence. And this is– this is the– that I'm on at the moment– is, you know– I've never necessarily suffered with, you know, a lack of confidence– if anything, I'm probably slightly overconfident sometimes– but it's about– that can be taught. I have taught so many women in my business to be at the forefront– to, you know, be open. And I think people misunderstand confidence for arrogance– and there's a very fine line– but actually, it can be taught, um, you know– so that you do speak up.

00:32:25 Aleksandra King: This stuff works.

00:32:27 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– this actually works.

00:32:29 Aleksandra King: People like the confidence, I think. And actually– if you fight– you shouldn't have to fight for what you're worth– but at the same time, you know, people do like the directness– and actually, if you're saying that you're worth it, then you must be worth it, you know. But I think that– I think a lot of women struggle with that.

00:32:45 Michelle Niziol: That's the journey I've been on with the females that I've employed– the amount of training and development that I spend on the confidence issues has been insane.

00:32:58 Aleksandra King: Years– confidence issues, for sure. And this leads me into my next question– which is the ongoing debate about under-representation of women in leadership positions. That is something we're still seeing today– it is still a fact. Why– why is this even happening?

00:33:12 Michelle Niziol: Again, I think women just are not putting themselves forward. Also, it's the whole work-life balance, isn't it– you know, organisations need to look at– because– because even myself and my team– you know, a lot of my team are mums– it's about the– what support is– are employers giving, you know, parents. And still– I'm not saying that this is all the time– but still, it's a lot of mothers that want to spend a lot more time with their children– and I'm trying not to be sexist there– but I certainly know, out of myself and my husband– he loves spending time with our children, but it's definitely me that wants to spend more of the working day with my children, you know. So I can't vouch for everybody, but that's in our family– that's definitely, um, the way goes. And I think employers being flexible around that, you know– and making sure that leadership positions offer some sort of flexibility.

00:34:07 Aleksandra King: I think, you know, going back to The Apprentice– I think my issue with the culture around that– even though that's a TV production– I get it, it's TV– I don't really want to necessarily fuel, or– or– or be part of, full-time, anything that takes that balance away– anything that skews too much to the other side, where it's deliberate stress, and it's deliberate, no, you can't see your family– as if that's a good thing– even in the name of entertainment. I mean, what is the problem with picking up the phone and talking to your kid for four minutes? What is the problem? I just don't feel that– that's– maybe I understand that it's there to stress– but anything that tips the balance– like, it becomes unnatural, and too unnecessarily high stress. For me, it's not something– and I certainly wouldn't want to work with anyone long-term that has that mindset.

00:35:02 Michelle Niziol: Yeah– and I think it wouldn't work– at the point in time where I was on the show– yeah, I was not in that present mindset with the children. Now, I wouldn't do the show.

00:35:13 Aleksandra King: There is something in that– that there are these stereotypes– and there's almost two groups of women– and either you're, you know, strong and tough– and then you– you know, you're labelled– unfair labelling– or then you're maybe softer, and a bit more meek– and, some ways, dare I say, you're sexy or something– God forbid– then you're not taken seriously at all. What do you think about this?

00:35:38 Michelle Niziol: I think the impression that people get of me is– they're super intimidated– which I've always found– because I don't get labelled with the sexy.

00:35:48 Aleksandra King: Yeah– OK. So– so what labelling have you– have you received?

00:35:52 Michelle Niziol: Labelling– I think– I think the whole intimidation. So people think I'm up myself– because I think that's the label that someone who is portrayed to be successful is– and it's when you meet me that you actually go, oh, she's so normal, you know. And– and actually– so I think the perception is very different to the real me– because I think, again, people, you know– if it was a successful man, you wouldn't think, oh, he's up himself– you just think, oh, how successful he is– how wonderful. But I think, because a woman is driven, you know– you automatically– this is the stigma that I get attached with– is that, unless you know me, you think that I'm up myself, and I'm better than you– and, you know– which couldn't be further from the truth. And I think that's sad– I do think that's sad. Whereas actually, when I meet, or see, or admire a successful woman– I don't think those things– I think, you know, I'm in awe of you. You– like, you know, Oprah Winfrey– I mean, Oprah Winfrey doesn't come across intimidating– so, you know, she's probably the most successful businesswoman on the planet– and I idolise her– you know, she's one of my idols.

00:37:02 Aleksandra King: Yes– but she manages to do it in such a way where it's humble, and it's soft, and it's– she disarms.

00:37:08 Michelle Niziol: Yeah, yeah– she disarms. And, um, you know– so I'm trying to work on that– because a lot of the, you know– people who don't know me necessarily think that, you know, I can be quite intimidating– and I think that that's their perception of me– rather than, actually, when they do get to know me, they go, oh, actually, you're really quite funny, and you're friendly, and you're–

00:37:27 Aleksandra King: It's quite an interesting one– because, um, I suppose it depends on your situation as well. So maybe if there's, you know, some insecurities, or, you know– then you feel a bit like, oh, I don't, you know– yeah. But if you're doing things yourself– and also, I think what women need to realise– what– you can be inspired, and you can be driven, by another woman's success too, you know.

00:37:50 Michelle Niziol: Absolutely.

00:37:51 Aleksandra King: Why don't you rub off on each other?

00:37:52 Michelle Niziol: Absolutely– but I think– go– I think women who are confident in– I think you're absolutely right– it comes from insecurity, these– so, obviously, I meet– I try and network with businesswomen all the time– and I'm a Prince's Trust Ambassador– so I'm pretty much one of the only non-celebrities in the Prince's Trust ambassadorship– and they certainly don't think I'm intimidating– because they're so successful, you know– and they don't have– I'm sure they've got their own insecurities– because haven't we all– but, um, you know, I think it is– I think it does come down to, you know– women who are really secure in themselves– they actually, you know– they go, what can I learn from– also, I'm doing the same thing, you know. You always want to be in a room where you're– yeah– you lift it up, and you pull together. And I love meeting– I mean, I have The Empowering Entrepreneur– where I do networking, um, for businesswomen– and that is purely to get in a room with like-minded women, like myself– so you can all, sort of, you know, help each other– lift each other up– support each other. And I think these kind of podcasts– and getting out there, and talking to women– and normalising a confident woman, you know– and seeing that as a very, very good thing– is something that should be continuing.

00:39:04 Aleksandra King: Yeah– absolutely.

00:39:05 Michelle Niziol: And this is why I'm on a bit of a mission– and, you know, doing loads of PR and media at the moment– one, because, you know, I've got nothing to prove– two, I think by sharing my story– particular around, you know, working with therapists and psychologists– that there should be no stigma attached to it– and actually, it's only going to benefit yourself. And for any women out there that, you know, are working mums, you know– whether they're an employee, or running their own business– that actually, you can do it– you can, you know, still be present– if you work– if you work on it, you definitely can– and have that work-life balance, but still be super successful at the same time. So you can be a mum, and still run businesses– and not one of those always, sort of, above the other at some point in time. I'm not saying I'm perfect with it, by any stretch– but I'm getting there– and I'm really learning to, you know, not beat myself up about, you know, not being present sometimes– or work taking a backseat sometimes.

00:40:02 Aleksandra King: Do you have a quote, or anything that you look to, that inspires you in any way, that you can share?

00:40:07 Michelle Niziol: Um– I think it's more about, you know– money doesn't bring you success– changing people's lives bring you success– and it's– Michelle Obama said something along those lines– don't totally quote me– but she very much– and I look up to her– I think she's an inspirational woman. And I think, you know, if you– I think if you focus on the money– I– I think that could be a little bit of a downfall. I think if you focus on the– what change are you going to bring to someone's life– I think the money will just come. That– that's my– that's the path I've always followed– and that is the path that I've been successful at.

00:40:42 Aleksandra King: Michelle, it's been amazing speaking to you. Thanks so much for coming today.

00:40:47 Michelle Niziol: Thanks– so– thank you.