The Price of Staying True to Your Values | Gene Folkes

Cold open

00:00:00 Aleksandra King: This is a really interesting episode, because we have Gene Folkes, who was actually on the American Apprentice, and he had a run-in with Trump. So we are going to get into that. We're talking about a military guy versus one of the most powerful men in the world– who wasn't president then, but believe you me, he was already a force to be reckoned with. So tune in to find out what happened.

Interview

00:00:30 Aleksandra King: Listen, thank you so much for coming on Beyond the Boardroom podcast. I am delighted to have you for so many reasons. Apprentice– you've been on the US version in 2010.

00:00:43 Gene Folkes: Yes, 2010.

00:00:44 Aleksandra King: Right. And I was on the UK version. So you had Trump, I had Lord Sugar. So that is a connection you don't get every day– both on Apprentice. And also I think we're both interested in politics on some level. So you are the best guest to have on.

00:01:00 Gene Folkes: Oh, thank you. You're the best host.

00:01:04 Aleksandra King: So tell us a bit about your roots and how those influenced you.

00:01:08 Gene Folkes: I am a product of a Jamaican father and American mother. Having roots in both places, I think that comes with a unique perspective globally, 'cause my family looks like the UN, right? My family has a history of service, starting from my great-grandmother to my grandmother, who was a foster parent– I think at one point she had 15 kids in her home.

00:01:32 Aleksandra King: Really? So–

00:01:34 Gene Folkes: Yeah, yeah, my mother was the same way. And so I went to an air show one time and fell in love with the sharpness and the discipline and the civility of young military veterans, and I acclimated into the Air Force and spent 10 years serving here and in Europe, and honourably discharged, and then became a recruiter and picked up that legacy of service. And so I began to help young men and women matriculate into the military. And then when I got out of the military and went into corporate, I ended up doing the same thing– mentoring young men and women.

00:02:12 Aleksandra King: Do you consider yourself a confident and driven person?

00:02:18 Gene Folkes: It's a tricky question, isn't it? You don't want to sound sort of, you know– but, you know, direct. Part of the problem is that we're not direct, right? I think there's a healthy way to say I'm a confident, driven person. I would say I'm confident in the fact that I know my strengths and my weaknesses, and I know that I'm ever evolving and growing, and I'm comfortable and confident– the fact that even though I may not know everything, but I know that I can figure it out. I always make this joke– do you want to get on an airplane with a pilot this confident, or not confident that he's gonna be able to land the plane?

00:02:54 Aleksandra King: Yeah, of course.

00:02:54 Gene Folkes: We want to go into surgery with a cocky surgeon with an impeccable track record, or the guy that's kind of unclear and not able to make the right decisions– then you might get the scissors left in.

00:03:06 Aleksandra King: You said something really interesting, which is about obviously the balance between the sort of– being confident, but not being a narcissist. And I think, yeah, I think in that is– you don't want also that empty confidence. You kind of have to earn your confidence. Even if, let's say, you haven't got all the stars and you're not sort of qualified in something fully– if you have the sort of confidence that you think, you know what, I can ask, I can find out, I can get that information.

00:03:33 Gene Folkes: Yeah, no, it's simpatico. It's so weird that you came up with that– which is not surprising. I think confident people– truly, authentically confident people– are not afraid to ask for help. And I think that's an epidemic within leadership, right? You know, leaders are meant to replace themselves. And yet we find ourselves– we have a rising young star, and we want to challenge them. But that's not true leadership. True leadership is to replace myself without feeling threatened.

00:04:04 Aleksandra King: With the military, there's a military regime. There's getting up very early. There's doing things you don't want to do. There's taking orders. There's humbling yourself. Everyone's the same. What have you taken from that?

00:04:15 Gene Folkes: I did 10 years in the Air Force. It was honour to be discharged. I was somewhat rebellious, in a way. You would think that having spent so much time in the military, that I would be pro military regime– and I am not. That those skills are transferable into the civilian sector, because there is a sense of honour and duty and integrity and responsibility. I'm not saying that every military person is perfect, but I'm saying that within the military lifestyle, there is an expectation of brotherhood, sisterhood– that we kind of speak the same language, and we know how to sort of, you know, have a little bit more self-control when it comes to knowing when to question authority, and then when it comes to knowing when to follow those orders. If something goes down, I at least have a framework from which to come from, to do the best that I can to protect myself and other people.

00:05:12 Aleksandra King: Apprentice.

00:05:13 Gene Folkes: Yes.

00:05:15 Aleksandra King: Why, oh why, did you go on it?

00:05:17 Gene Folkes: It was 2008, Aleksandra. And I think I was working on a project– on a real estate project– and I had some friends out in LA, and they called me and they said, hey, you know, there's a slot on the Apprentice. And I said, sure, I'd be interested. I figured that the star of the Apprentice was a real estate magnate. I had a 35 million dollar deal on the table. I needed another 5 million. It just kind of made sense to me. It really was like this, but they called me, they said, send in the tape, and then tell us who you are. And I did everything wrong, right? 'Cause it was so last minute. And I sent it to them, and then they said, we're going to send you an airline ticket to fly out to LA to go through your background.

00:05:56 Aleksandra King: So they wanted a piece to camera– sorry, for– they wanted to make sure that you can– is that, is that what happens with most of the candidates in America, or–

00:06:04 Gene Folkes: No, that was an unusual thing. So normally they would go through some sort of interview process–

00:06:09 Aleksandra King: Like we have in the UK, which takes– right, that's what I'm saying. Normally what happens is people apply for the programme, and then if you get invited, if they're interested, then what happens is they'll have you go through rounds of interviews.

00:06:23 Gene Folkes: I didn't go through that process, because by the time I got there, a lot of the other 15 candidates had– had a recall that they had met doing the interviewing round at one slot. And so mine was very unusual. They literally had just called me. I sent a tape, and I didn't interview with anyone, right? I didn't interview with any of the other candidates. No one in– interviewing anybody. I didn't meet Donald. I didn't meet anyone. So they literally flew me out to LA. I went through psychological– you know how it goes– psychological, criminal background, hoax bank. And then next, you know, I fly back. I was in Dallas– flew back to Dallas. And then I got a call, and they said, pack your bags. When it's in the ticket, and you're going to New York– you've been accepted on the Apprentice. What do you like to eat? And I was like, oh, okay. So within two weeks I had this whirlwind situation, and I just ended up saying, let's do it. And so I ended up flying to New York and going through that whole experience.

00:07:23 Aleksandra King: Do you think Trump had quite a say in that, then? Did he sort of think, yeah, this guy can go on camera, he's pretty good– go for it? 'Cause he likes to just sometimes use his instinct, I suppose.

00:07:35 Gene Folkes: Yeah. From what I understand, he handpicked me– and I don't know why. So– and I hadn't had any encounters with him prior to that. He has a lot of– because he owned the programme– I guess, I think, 50 percent of it– and he was an executive producer. He had say in who would come on the programme and who wouldn't.

00:07:59 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I mean, in the UK it's literally– yeah, well, probably it must be, in this way, similar in the US– that you got fast track there. That was really quite cool, I think, for you. And then for the rest of the– the rest of the herd, you kind of have to go through this application process– people from around the country, go in all the cities. You have a central location, and they go to these various central locations, and there's hundreds and hundreds of thousands of them. And then there's different phases, different levels. You possibly can– you can be there for the whole day. Then you come back, then you come back again, and then they just whittle it down, whittle it down, whittle it down, whittle it down. And I suppose the piece to camera– although I think they are filming you anyway the whole time when they're doing this– but the actual conscious piece to camera, like we've got it now, it's only towards the end– that that's like sort of the final– well, one of the final steps.

00:08:48 Gene Folkes: There's a lot of hoops. There's a lot of– most people don't realise, Aleksandra– and I know– and I'm so glad talking to you, because you can sort of– you can sort of breathe and– and share this experience. And I don't know how difficult your post-Apprentice experience has been, but it's interesting, because– and I know we're going to get to this at some point– but it's like, you know, people think you're– it's so weird, the reaction you get from people once they see you on sort of international television, or in your country. Like, they recognise you, but they don't. And then friendships can change, and, you know, things can get somewhat challenging, because, you know, there's this idea of, you know, celebrity, right? And you're just kind of like, no, I'm just a normal person that just decided to do X, Y, Z. And I think a lot of people don't realise the– how, how gruelling the– the selection process is. You're talking about some of the– I mean, like, on my episode, half of them were Ivy League lawyers, right? And I think that people don't realise the pool from which– you know, there's so many talented people, right? And you have to have almost like this magic formula– I don't know if you felt that way, but you almost have to have like this magic formula that says, I'm gonna bet on you. And it can, you know, it can change your life.

00:10:13 Aleksandra King: In a way, that's– that's interesting. And it really– you know, you do have to be a confident, driven person– to good or bad– to not let it get to you. Yeah, I think– I don't know if you found that. Yeah. I mean, I think– well, I think similarly here, anyone that actually makes it to the show has got something, you know. There might be– they all personalities that are big personalities, for sure, but they've also got something business-wise. Even if they are a little bit out there and a little bit, you know, whatever, they have something– some sort of mechanism, some sort of business plan that's credible. Because of course the bigger brand– so the Trump brand, Lord Sugar– they wouldn't associate themselves with anyone that didn't have the right sort of something– whatever it is– to attach themselves to. Even just coming on the programme– they're very careful who they associate themselves with, because then you obviously become part of this brand. Even now we're talking about it– there's this thing that will stick with you for the rest of your life, even if you don't want it. It's, you know– it's with everyone that applies– is good. And– but in the UK, they probably make fun of the contestants more– like, the production are more brutal. Just like our media here is really– like, when they want to go, they will. So over here, they've got no problem making you look really silly and whatever. I was quite lucky, but I have been interviewing quite a few candidates, and some of them, you know, have struggled to find work afterwards or whatever, because they'd be made to look a certain way, when they're anything but– they're very smart and credible people. So– so what's it like in the US? Do you think that they make the candidates look a little bit better? Or do they also sort of go for you?

00:11:55 Gene Folkes: No, they don't. I think that my experience was, you know, challenging, because, like we had just discussed, they got me raw. And, you know, you sign these contracts and non-disclosures, and, you know, you're so excited to be on the programme, and you're trying to read the fine print and do that whole thing. And you don't realise that you're giving your life over to a large media organisation, who is in the business of getting ratings, and they will do so by any means necessary. And so it's very similar. It's interesting that you said that about the UK, because I would think the UK would be nicer– but we're rough. I don't know how they do it in the UK, but I know in the US, we didn't get to see our episodes, right? We didn't get to see the process. And so I remember when– after the show started airing– and I didn't really watch it very much, because at the time I was so traumatised– we were asking each other questions like, I don't remember you being in that room, or, that's not exactly how that went down. Or, you know– 'cause they are filming, filming you all the time, and so they literally get to draw a narrative. And that narrative gets– it was brutal. I mean, the, you know, the gossip– the gossip columns– and the way that people would characterise you, based on what you were saying or what you were doing a lot of times– on, you know– 'cause they throw these tasks at you, that you're just kind of, you know, scrambling. And so they're recording you even in times where you're not cognisant that they are. And then they might take that and insert that into, you know, a narrative that says you look like an idiot, right? And without any– without any thought about– you have to go back into real life. The Apprentice is unique among all reality television shows, I believe, because it's not a dating show. You take real business people who have worked their lives and in different vocations– there are real-world consequences to how you're being portrayed that can ruin your life. And you– right– make it very difficult for you to, you know, brush that off, in a way, right? To where you're able to function in the– in the real world.

00:14:20 Aleksandra King: Well, the thing is, though, that when you're signing all these documents and the NDAs and all of that– that print– if you pay close attention– really what you're doing– and you won't really know this in the true form until you're actually in it– but what you're doing is handing over control of your own brand to that bigger brand. That brand has the PR behind them and all that stuff, and the budget, to protect– you know, in your case, it's the Trump brand, with a– with a show. And in our case, it's the Lord Sugar brand, and then also the show– it's a BBC production. So there's obviously– there's a lot of PR that goes into it. And the loyalty and the budget is towards that. You do not– unless you are loaded and have your own PR people and protection– you are on your own, right? We have not signed up for anyone making us look good. And I suppose the risk isn't that apparent until you're in it, and you're realising– I quickly clocked, very quickly– what– that it was more TV and less business– very quickly, you know. Then you start to navigate and go, well, how can I take control back here? And is it worth it? And there's millions of people watching, and you're aware of– of the games being played and all of that, you know– without giving too much– you– you become quickly, you know– so it's–

00:15:32 Gene Folkes: Right, right. Well, I– well, I can give away quite a bit. I think you're right, in the sense that, you know, I didn't go on the programme to play a game. I was just a guy who had left investment banking, who started a small firm and had a pretty sizable project. And it made sense to me at the time. What I did not anticipate was everything that you just said. The fact of the matter is, is that there's these huge brands, and they're not there to protect me. They're really there for entertainment. And I didn't really expect them to be protective. I saw it as an opportunity– good or bad– to be on an international stage, and sort of showcase who I am and what I can do. Now, obviously, things didn't work out the way I planned, because of my military background. There's a saying that we have in Texas that says, I'm going to– I'm going to show you how the cow eats the cabbage, right? And, you know, once I realised that I was playing a game– because they would always try to coach me to say this, and coach me to say that– and I'm like, I'm not doing that. I think I was told once that I wasn't playing ball. Okay. It became a situation for me, Aleksandra, to where I just didn't want to play, right? And I was not going to play– and you can make me– you're trying to get viewership up, and you don't really care how you do it. That goes against how I look at business. I'm not going to throw people into a pit just so I can walk over their bodies to do that. And for what reason, right? That was the tone at the time. And I remember having an adversarial conversation with– NBC– and basically said, in my military way, you know– F the Trump brand, F the Apprentice brand, and F the NBC brand. There's a Gene Folkes brand that I've actually put into perspective over these last 30 or 40 years. And when you're someone in America that looks like me, that becomes problematic– because I've worked so hard to avoid those stereotypes. And I haven't done it with a chip on my shoulder, or angry. I just know that if I focus on– my competence is competency– whatever problems you have with me or not are not mine. They're yours. Do you want to be successful and work around someone that has integrity and loyalty– and can you get past yourself? Can I do that? And so NBC and I had this battle, because they were portraying those very stereotypes that I've had to overcome. And it wasn't until I spoke to lawyers– 'cause we got really adversarial– that I said, you guys are damaging my brand. How do you want to play this? I don't care about an NDA. Nobody's shooting at me. So let's go. And they were completely silent.

00:18:43 Aleksandra King: From what I've found, it just really depends– like, your headspace– where is that at? Obviously there's an awareness of how you're being portrayed, and whether that's successful or not successful, and how that's going to look. But then there's also how much you– you wanted, I suppose– like, the end goal. What is it that I'm going for? What am I prepared to put on the table to get– to– to that point? Is that important? Am I prepared to put this onto the table, to risk, to get this thing? Or actually, do I not even want the reward? That's a very important question. And then that sort of together comes to– to determine the outcome, I guess– and whether you want to stay on– and I suppose your– your whole attitude towards that thing. So some really wanted it– you know, there was nothing else going on, let's say, in their life at that point. No kids, no this, no that. And it's like, you know, I'm basically young and broken– on the– on– basically on the street and all– in a– in a student hostel. So let me just go for it. This is it. I'm going to put everything there. I'm just going to block out the noise. Yes, all this stuff is going on. Yes, they doing this. Yes, my– my brand is at risk. But you know what? I don't even have a proper brand anyway. I'm just going to go now– let's rush, and let's go. And then that sort of energy, I think– older the contest– so, you know, there's a very different– big difference between someone who's 22, someone who's 32, someone who's 42. Your– your needs, your– your risk that you're prepared to take, is– is all different. For me, you know, I– I had already had, you know, three little children at home. I was moving house, and that– I wasn't probably in the right frame for this. However, the whole interview process and being on the show– that was all interesting. I enjoyed the tasks. I did well on them and all that. But, you know– you know, you kind of realise the gameplay in this, and then you think, well– not for me. It depends on where you are. I did the same thing. I walked away, right? Very acrimoniously. Whenever you present someone with an opportunity– if that– there are some people that are willing to do anything to make that opportunity work.

00:20:39 Gene Folkes: Yeah, a hundred. I am not of that mind– I am not of that mindset. And listen, I'm not saying that I'm some angelic saint or whatever, because I'm not. I'm a flawed human being, like everyone else. But there are just certain things that I'm not willing to do. And I'm not going to kiss anybody's ring or, you know, expose myself just so I can get ahead, when that doesn't really matter. And, you know, you and I, I think, you know– I had a lot of respect for Donald Trump in the eighties, as a young business student coming up. And, you know, he's just– real estate magnate. And I always tell people, be careful meeting your heroes. And, you know, he wrote this book and also stuff. And then I met him– we had a one-on-one sit-down– and this is not political, but personally, I was just not impressed. I can respect, you know, what you've done. I mean, if my father gave me 400 million, I hope I could flip that into something big, right? Because that's– that's Trump's story. He's not a self-made billionaire. And I would think that once you've– you can be sharp, and you can be shrewd, but you don't have to be cruel. And that's what I felt. I made the right call by saying, if you want to fire me, then F and fire me, because I'm not doing that. So– what you said, and that is what I said. Yeah. Yeah. And I think Don Jr said this– he goes, so why did you just fall on your sword? Why did you just do that? Well, you're trying to lead me down a question– a path that does not align with what happened. I'm not going to just say yes so I can stay on a programme. And by this point, I'm okay with walking away from it. So if you want to fire me, F and fire me. I don't care. That's exactly how that went. Yeah. So, yeah– I don't care how much money's on the table. I don't care what the opportunity looks like. And I think that that's a– that's a– a reality television lesson, I believe, that we're facing– and– real– in real business, right? This sort of lack of, you know– profits over people, or whatever. I don't care if you're a billionaire. I'm not doing that. So I'm– I'm out.

00:23:12 Aleksandra King: So was that– was that hard for you?

00:23:16 Gene Folkes: You know, he did one rare thing with me when I walked off. He says, you know, you didn't give me a trick– came down, loose in his tie– he doesn't like to shake hands and stuff– tall guy, taller than me. And he said, you know, you really didn't give me a choice but to fire you. I said, I know, right? So do I regret the way that I did it? Absolutely not. I do not. I do not regret the fact that, you know, I chose me that day. And I chose not to play the game. I think what's been challenging has been his responses– as, if you guys are watching, how Trump talks about his adversaries in the US. And when you are a person that has that sort of reach, and that power, and those resources, you know– it only takes a little bit of money to make, you know, your quote-unquote adversary– And so I think what's been challenging has been his attacks, and the nature of those attacks, and how he comes at it. My attitude is, I can run and hide, or I can keep shining the light and, you know, do what I did in the military– is, if there's danger, I'm gonna run– I'm gonna run towards a fire. So, no, I don't regret telling him to suck it. He had a young lady come up in front of him in the boardroom– 'cause, you know, it's a SAT– and he had a twirl for him. We all went shopping, because he wanted the women to be more provocative, right? There's a camera on that somewhere. Somebody has that.

00:24:49 Aleksandra King: I thought you were an eloquent person– but this happened when–

00:24:54 Gene Folkes: There's a video out there– that you see– I wear glasses, right? I wear bifocals. And there's a video out there of me saying, hey, I need to go get my glasses. I don't have them, because I can't see the fine print on what you guys are asking me to read. But the way that that was– narrative was portrayed– was as if I was an idiot– with a lifetime of public speaking, by the way– an idiot who couldn't form a sentence. And that– those are all those racial tropes that come to, you know– that you sort of have, unfortunately, become familiar with. Didn't want it– trying to do a deal– grateful for some of it. At the same time, I think, to be insensitive– or not– to other peo– [unclear] were comments about– you fired me– one of the pers– [unclear] for him, he was like, you– And then she said, you know, I work for you, Mr Trump. She happened to look like me. So you just assume that, you know, these two people of colour are a couple? What are you talking about?

00:25:56 Aleksandra King: I can't speak about the– obviously, with the racism thing– I mean, that's, you know– you've got this experience. You've heard what you've heard and seen what you've seen. I think on the women thing– the thing about someone like him– the Trump– and I do say someone like, because my dad– he's like a typical Polish dad. Some of the things that he says– and he loves women, and beautiful, and looking lovely, and, you know– but he'll say things like that. I know that in today's society, if he did speak about what he says publicly, he'll be cancelled. Then– then he'll, you know– I don't like– you wear a skirt– come on, wear a nice skirt. Show it– show your legs. If you've got pretty legs, show them. Put on some high heels– you know, all those things– get slaughtered. And he doesn't mean harm by that. I think sometimes, you know– sometimes we take things a little bit– and I also think some of the things you– that, like, you know, about the glasses and that– I think a lot of that is the whole production thing that you were sucked into, where they make some TV. And that TV will– you are going to be the lamb that comes to slaughter, because that's a golden TV moment. Like, that is what– that is what you've signed. When– when you got– awful– it shouldn't happen. That's, I suppose, the interesting thing about this whole messed-up situation. You know, this is what we're talking about– it's like, it's crazy. Yes, it is good TV. Yes, in a way, we want to see these people suffering and squirming, and that's why we watch the show. But then you're on it, and you're the one suffering and squirming, and then your reputation's affected– and then it's like, whoa, whoa.

00:27:39 Gene Folkes: I'll say this about what you were saying about Trump and– and people of that ilk. You know, I always respect– I'm a candid person, and I always respect people that are candid. And I get his generation, and I don't believe in cancel culture. I think, you know, what I fought for were people's rights to disagree and be who they are. And sure, the world's changed. Do I think it's gone way too far the other way? Absolutely, right? There's, you know– there's misogyny, and then there's, you know, there's toxic masculinity. Look, I– in some ways, I respect– just becomes a shocker– the fact that, you know, I did have a lot of respect for the way that he handled his businesses. And he did offer me a position within his company, out of all the 15 candidates. And– and I said no to that. But I also respect the fact that, you know, he's unafraid to speak his mind. That's why I said I don't believe in sort of cancel culture– whether I agree with him or not, right? I think, though, when you do it in a way that's malicious and meant to hurt people, then that needs to be addressed. Trump knows exactly what he's saying, what he's doing. I love the fact that he speaks his mind. He doesn't like when you push back. But I think there's a difference between someone like that– he's almost like a benevolent sexist, or benevolent racist. And I think he's so clueless, in some sense, on the potential responses that he would get. And he's so full of himself, and he doesn't really care. And I don't think that's healthy.

00:29:24 Aleksandra King: You know, listening to you, it's tough, because I– obviously, I'm in the UK. I watch a lot of the different media channels. I see what the BBC has to say. I'll listen to what Al Jazeera has to say. I'll watch a bit of CNN. I might even tap into a bit of Fox. I might also watch some YouTube channels, and what Piers Morgan has to say. And I like to spread the net really, really wide when it comes to media. I love the different perspectives. I have a sister who lives in America. She lives in Michigan state, and she's married to a– I mean, they love Trump. They love him. They really do. They think he is great. I can understand from my sister's perspective.

00:30:04 Gene Folkes: You know, I've struggled, because I've lived in a very conservative state, and, like you, I like to listen to liberal, I like to listen to conservative. Most people think that New York and California are the majority of America, when in reality, it's not. States like Michigan– where my daughter lives, in Michigan– it's states like Michigan and Texas and Ohio and Indiana, who may not subscribe to such a liberal mindset.

00:30:29 Aleksandra King: You think about it– you've got someone who's an entrepreneur. Yes, he's inherited his dad's business, but he's done pretty well. You know, you could have blown that whole fortune and being, you know– so he must have had some brain cells there to– to continue with that. And he's become really famous and done all these things. He understands business and negotiation, which makes him good. Also what he's done with NATO and things like that. You know, there's– there's certain things, you know, where he's forcing other countries to pay their dues. There's nothing wrong with that. That's the sort of thing that any– you would do it as a business, and I would do it as a business. Basic things that, I suppose, it needed an entrepreneur– someone with a business head– to go, well, that is a rubbish deal. Let's do this. So there were– it makes sense.

00:31:15 Gene Folkes: So I– I believe you are correct in what Trump did for the economy. I also think that you're right– as a business person, you do want someone ruthless. You do want someone that's going to be able to protect your interest. I think that, for me, the problem comes in when you– when you do it at the expense of all Americans and some of our allies. And I think, you know– it's almost– you know, my big thing is, make it more about the country, not about you. Most people– most sensible people– are actually in the middle. I believe in balance. Probably most military people do. But at the same time, I believe wisdom demands that I'm not going to blindly follow anyone if I think it's not in the best interest of the country. You know, and I'm not trying to be naive or altruistic, but, you know– you want to be on the right side of it. And when it comes to, you know, Trump's racial comments or sexist comments– if you ask me what I heard and what I saw, I'm going to tell you.

00:32:13 Aleksandra King: What's next for Gene Folkes?

00:32:17 Gene Folkes: So, like you, I've had a podcast– I've been running for about four years– and I'd be honoured to have you a guest on that programme.

00:32:25 Aleksandra King: Just for our– for our viewers, what's the podcast? Where can I find it?

00:32:30 Gene Folkes: It's on YouTube, and it's also on Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio– you know, all the normal channels. And then also, we're kicking off a clothing line. It's called Oshun. There is an entrepreneur spirit in me that's always doing that. And then my consulting firm– still capital raising for people, and trying to help small businesses, you know, take on Goliath.

00:32:53 Aleksandra King: I love the name Oshun. I love that. All right, Gene, thank you so much, and I'll see you on your podcast.

00:33:04 Gene Folkes: Okay. Definitely. You will. Thank you guys so much. Thank you.