What Really Happens After Winning The Apprentice? | Mark Wright

Cold open

00:00:00 Aleksandra King: You won BBC The Apprentice.

00:00:02 Mark Wright: I think I– I won it almost easily. I said, hi, my name is Mark Wright and I'm the winner of the 2014 Apprentice, and she was like– she just laughed. Anyway, on the night that I won the show, the lady from the reception came in to the You're Hired show, and she said, do you remember me? I'm the lady from reception, and you said, your name's Mark Wright and you're going to win the show– and you won it.

00:00:25 Aleksandra King: What are you afraid of in life? Are you running from anything?

[Music]

00:00:37 Aleksandra King: I'm Aleksandra King and I'm the host of Beyond the Boardroom podcast. In this episode we look at what happened after Mark won The Apprentice. How much help did Mark actually get, what actually happened, and why did he land up selling his business and walking away? Tune in.

[Music]

Interview

00:01:00 Aleksandra King: So you go in, you then win 250,000 investment. How do you feel?

00:01:09 Mark Wright: It felt like a made-up fairy tale sort of moment. It was like– all my family was there, and the sort of– there was so much happening, and, you know, my social media following went through– like, went up hundreds of thousands in one day. People on the street were asking me for selfies. I mean, you– you'll know this– it's just, I went from being a regular person that's backpacking in the UK to, like, everyone asking for photos, hundreds of thousands of people on social media, people wanting to pay me to go here and do this. And it was just so much– it was too much. I couldn't process it at the time; I probably haven't even processed it to this day. It was amazing. It was a once-in-a-lifetime, incredible, enjoyable experience, and I'll look back on it when I'm sitting in a nursing home, and I think no matter what happens in my life before that point, or to the day I die, that will be one of the things I think about on my death.

00:02:16 Aleksandra King: It's a moment of elation, of complete ecstasy, must be. So you then have Lord Sugar as a business partner. You're one year in, you're turning over 1.7 million, you've got over 30 members of staff, you've got 230-odd clients. That's a lot of clients, by the way, to cope– I mean, I know a thing or two about digital marketing companies, agencies such as– such as the one you were running– my husband runs the same– and it's like, 230 clients. So how are you coping with the pressure? And then you've got Lord Sugar and his accounting team, and you got meetings– like, how are you even surviving?

00:02:52 Mark Wright: Not– not well. Not well. I made a lot of mistakes in the first two years– the first three years particularly. My main mistakes being exactly what you just highlighted: I got way too many staff on low salaries, so the quality of the employee was not fantastic, and that caused its own issues. We got way too many customers on low retainers, on small budgets. So it sounds great to say 230 customers– not if they're all paying one pound each, that's– that's terrible. So the numbers– and it all sounds great on paper– there was some issues, like the old duck, you know: smooth on the surface, and the legs were going crazy underneath. And if you looked at my agency when I sold it, we had, like– I think we had like 43 customers– 45 customers– but they were enormous. Yeah, and we had, you know, not many more staff than the numbers you read out– okay, there quite a few more, but it was a long time on [unclear: big salaries?], and, you know, it was just working more harmoniously. So the things– the stress of winning the show, having the money, having Alan Sugar as your business partner, and– it was the first time I'd ever owned and ran a business. So I'm a business owner for the first time, I'm business partners with Lord Sugar for the first time, I've never seen 250,000 pounds before– that's all new, that's–

00:04:20 Aleksandra King: At this point, are you getting advice? Is Lord Sugar saying, listen, like, you need to scale back, you're growing too quickly, the retainers are too small– I mean, are you getting advice, or is it all on you?

00:04:30 Mark Wright: It's all on me– 100%. 100% all on you, and he tells you at the very start: you are going to do this on your own, boy. I'm going to look after the accounting, the finance; you bring to me legal stuff. But I don't want to know about digital marketing, I don't want to know about, you know, this, that and the other. I'll see you once a month at the board meeting, but you are either going to make it work or you're not going to make– you're in hot water. You've got this public following, you're now public figure, and you better succeed, or else. Yeah, and– you feel it. I felt every ounce of the pressure. People– we got sued, we had other digital marketing agencies hacking our website, hacking our server, hammering us on SEO, hammering us, giving us negative reviews– we had– I mean, it was a lot. I was stacking on weight, and eating and drinking really unhealthily, working just hours that were unbelievable, for a sustained period. It was a hard, hard, hard time. It was– thank God I was 24 and young and didn't have many obligations, because I pretty much lived in the office. Yeah– you have to, you have to. And I just made it– I made what– I made the opportunity work, but it took some working.

00:05:54 Aleksandra King: You see, you definitely have to be at that right stage in your life. I mean, yeah, I knew that that would have been– as a 34-year-old person, I knew that the outcome would be all of that, and you would have to literally give everything without any scope, because it's all on the table and it's like all or nothing situation. So you have to– your life– you have to submit– you give your life for that opportunity.

00:06:28 Mark Wright: And The Apprentice winners that haven't been as successful with the opportunity that I have– they haven't– and it might be the right decision for them, in their life and the place they're at– they haven't given their life to that opportunity, and it hasn't worked.

00:06:42 Aleksandra King: Yeah, yeah. I could kind of tell that that's the direction it's going in, and when I met Lord Sugar in person, he reminded me of my own dad, who has the same work ethic– my dad's also in business, and, like, crazy strict and totally like that, you know. And I had already had my kids, and I was thinking, I'm not sure I want to necessarily work in that way now. I had wanted it when I was the age when you went into The Apprentice, because that's how I was working in what I was doing, you know– building systems implementations and things– so I would do crazy hours, and I loved that, in the middle of nowhere, in a Gambian jungle or whatever, you know. But as your life changes, it's like, how much are you going to give, and also how much can you physically give? So– so you're now putting on weight, you're now– you're drinking, you're not sort of balancing the whole work-life thing, and you're getting stressed. So what's– what's going on now? What's happening to you, and how are you managing?

00:07:36 Mark Wright: It wasn't– it wasn't good. It manifested in me having fainting episodes, where I would, like, black out, or, like, just faint– which was new, that was[n't] something I had seen before. And I was just so stressed, and I was under so much pressure– from myself, from the media, from the board of my company– and it was challenging, there's no doubt about it. And that's what I say to people who message me and stuff, they're about starting a business: okay, you're not going to maybe have the same public profile I have, and maybe Alan Sugar's not your business partner, but it's going to be tough. The first 12 to 18 months of a startup business is relentless. You need to live and breathe it, and really ride the ups and downs, for it to get to where needs to go. And look, later in my career it was not like that at all, but certainly for the first three years, it was pretty rough.

00:08:37 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Okay, but then you kind of work through that, somehow, and then you sell the business for 10 million. So why– why did you sell, Mark?

00:08:52 Mark Wright: Why did I sell? Well, first of all, I got an incredible offer for my company to be sold. The average digital marketing agency in the UK sells for two to three times EBITDA; we sold for nine and a half times EBITDA, so that's a pretty good offer. The other side of that coin is, I wanted to be spending more time in Australia, which is where I'm doing this from. I'd missed every friend's wedding, funerals, birthdays, births of children– I'd missed everything, and I was starting to be forgotten amongst my friends and family at home. I'd sacrificed 12 years of my life to building up my career and all of that good stuff, so I felt it was time to spend more time with the people that mattered most to me. So the offer came at a good time, and the other businesses I own and manage are either in Australia or can be done, you know, vice versa, over here. So that's what led to that decision.

00:09:51 Aleksandra King: So a bit of work-life balance, which we'll get to in a second. So your work ethic– like, from the email correspondence that we've had, you know, LinkedIn, whatever– you're very good at responding to emails. I quite like that. You know, you're very professional. Is that super important to you?

00:10:10 Mark Wright: Yeah, yeah. My email inbox, and all my inboxes, are meticulously organised. I respond to everything within the day I receive it. Everything– I'll have– we have the [unclear: sundown?] rule in my offices, where anything that comes in the day, we respond to before we leave, because that is part of the service you get from working with me at any level. I answer my phone quickly and professionally, I write back to you quickly and professionally, and I'm honest with you– and that's a guarantee that I give the people that I work with. And even organising this podcast, or anything that I do– we do it properly, we do it fast, we do it organised, and we do it that way.

00:10:55 Aleksandra King: And where– where does that come from? Did Lord [Sugar] rub off on you in that way? Is he similar?

00:11:03 Mark Wright: Oh, gosh– he's– he's probably a bit more than me. But probably my dad– my dad always had a theory, you know: how you do anything is how you do everything. Whether you're washing a mug, whether you're cleaning your car– he always said you can tell a good employee from how they keep their car, you can tell a employee from how they keep– maintain their house– you know, all of this stuff. And Lord Sugar was exactly the same. He would comment to me on how I was dressed, how I was shaved– you know, stuff that maybe you shouldn't do these days, let's say. He doesn't give a stuff about that, no. His brand of mentoring is direct, old school– let's call it old school and direct. But my dad is a hard bastard– he is a hard, hard bastard. So I grew up in a household with a tough dad, and then I went into business with a tough guy, and I love– look, getting sworn at, to me, is– it's just a Monday, let's rock and roll. Some people get really offended by that, and they want to, you know, take it to the employment tribunal or have a whinge. I love that stuff. That brand of mentoring works for me– it doesn't work for everybody, you know. I got a business partner that was right for me: believes in competition, believes in working hard, believes in tough love– and it works for me.

00:12:27 Aleksandra King: Right. So do you ever ghost people?

00:12:32 Mark Wright: Not– I will tell them I'm going to ghost them. I find ghosting so rude. It's so– I don't get that ghosting thing, I don't get it. There's only– I can only think of one or two people I've ever ghosted, because I don't think they're– cognitively got all the stuff going on upstairs. But most people, I'll say, look, I'm not interested in what you're selling here, or what you're doing here, or your podcast is a load of tosh– I'm not interested. And then they'll write back, and– say, I told you, I'm not interested, don't write to me again. But– so with me– some of my ex-girlfriends will– might attest to this– you always know where you're at. You'll always know if you can send another message or not.

00:13:12 Aleksandra King: Yeah, I love that. And I love, you know– in this podcast, your honesty is coming across as well. You're talking about, you know, those numbers that– that I read out, you know, that are on– from the different magazine articles– so, like, well, that's a bit inflated, or that wasn't a good number, because– you know, you are super honest, and that comes across. And it's– life is too short, right? Especially with things like partners and that– why would you– why would you stay in a relationship with someone when you're not, like, feeling it? Why can't you just have the courage to tell them, you know, to their face, like, listen– like, it's– you know, I don't– I don't get why people don't do that. But yeah.

00:13:47 Mark Wright: I don't– I don't understand it. And I think it better– you know, I used to be the best bullshitter in the game when I was younger, and as I've gotten older and more refined, more mature, more professional, I've just learned that if– telling the truth, and being direct with people, and being honest with people, is the best policy. It gets me the best results in business, it gets me the best results in my personal life, and– do you know– the people left in my life, after I'm direct with them, are the ones I enjoy being with anyway. So it's the results– great.

00:14:26 Aleksandra King: Yeah, they've accepted you for who you are, and they love you for that, so that's– that's amazing. Right, so let's go to where you are now. You're in property. I mean, that's– that's where you want to be, right? That's– that's a sweet spot, I would say.

00:14:41 Mark Wright: Well, Lord Sugar used to say to me, pretty much at every board meeting: Mark, we do business for fun, and property to make money. And I agree. It's– I love it. I love it because it's challenging, but it's fun. I love it because I'm good at it. And it's different, and I can do it anywhere in the world, so there's– there's so many elements to it that I'm working with, and I have lots of new stuff happen every week, and that– that keeps me interested. But it is– it is good for the back pocket as well, if you get it right– if you get– if you get it right, it can work. So I've just– I'm starting a new property company in New Zealand at the moment, I'm doing one in Australia at the moment, I've got one in the UK that's– that's doing very well. So it keeps me interested, and it's a good place to, you know, hone the stuff that I learned from Lord Sugar, who's a massive property tycoon. You know, I might as well– if I've seen success, go and have a bit of that myself.

00:15:46 Aleksandra King: Okay. So, are you happy?

00:15:49 Mark Wright: Oh, definitely, yeah.

00:15:51 Aleksandra King: And what's the best thing about your life right now?

00:15:54 Mark Wright: I've set my life up– I've designed my– my life is by design. I live in a house on a lake in Australia which only has 20-plus degree days. I have a fantastic fiancée who I'm about to marry. I have an amazing son who is very healthy and doing– developing well. And I have an office down the road which is amazing– I have a great office, I have businesses where I go to the board meetings– I drive to the meetings, and I enjoy the people I'm working with, and that's not always been the case. So I've set up my life where I love my house, I go to a gym I enjoy, an office I enjoy– so I'm in this phase of my life of doing hard stuff, but that I enjoy, and that makes me happy.

00:16:47 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Okay, so in terms of your work-life balance– I mean, are you doing anything to do with, like, mindfulness, or journaling, or anything like that for your mind? And you mentioned working out– so how was that balance going?

00:17:02 Mark Wright: Yeah, I mean, I try to meditate every day, for 15 minutes at the end of every single day. I'm a bit of a nutter about self-help stuff– I'm always listening to self-help books and different podcasts and things about improving my health and wellness. So I have two coaches that I pay for coaching: a nutritionist, and one that I work with like a personal trainer type thing, but it's like an exercise [unclear: physiologist?], because I have some issues in my back. I believe– because people pay me to coach them about business, why would I not believe in paying people for their expertise to help me in other areas I need in my life? So I'm working really hard on my– on my health at the moment, to complement the other stuff that I'm doing in my businesses.

00:17:53 Aleksandra King: I love that. I love the fact that you say you engineer your life– it's like drawing your ideal life, and then you go for it. I love that– I love it. Right, we're now going to move on to your LinkedIn posts. Okay, so I'll start with this one. This is what you're saying: I've always been different. Whenever I've tried to cover that up and act more normal, I found less success. What do you mean by that?

00:18:21 Mark Wright: I– I'll give you a reference to The Apprentice, actually. The candidates that watch the previous series before they go on– the series that's before them– and they try and act like, or take on the personality of, a contestant that's been in years past– always fail. Because you cannot fake being someone you're not for 12 weeks– impossible situation, it's too tiring. You can be you, and that's either going to be accepted by Lord Sugar and the public, or it's not– but at least you're going to be realistic, and go on to be successful in whatever your realm of life is. That is the same– I've had times in my life where I have felt the need to act differently, against my will, or against who my nature is, or my ethics– and it's always turned out badly.

00:19:17 Aleksandra King: Differently how?

00:19:18 Mark Wright: To fit in, maybe– you know, to fit in at school, or to fit in to try and date a girl, or to get a job, or to work in a team or an organisation. And I've always done it to try and get some form of success, or a goal, and I've either got it and it's not felt right, or I've either not got it, and crashed and burned miserably. And I've traced that back, like an air crash investigation, to always acting not in a reflection of who I really am– not being who I am at my core value– and whenever I've done that, I've failed. So my theory is: if you are just you– we're all weird, we're all messed up, let's just agree to that– and be who you are. And I agree that sometimes people will come into my life, hate who I am, and they leave; and sometimes [they]'ll come in and love who I am, and stay. And that's all fine. And if you just do that, you're going to have better people around you, you're going to get into the opportunities that are right for you, you're not going to get into the ones that are wrong for you, and the net positive of that is going to be a better life.

00:20:30 Aleksandra King: Yeah, because if you look at someone like Lord Sugar as well– he's completely and utterly, unashamedly and unapologetically, himself, isn't he?

00:20:38 Mark Wright: Yes– let's– let's be clear about–

00:20:40 Aleksandra King: And like your dad, and my dad, you know– it's people with strong personalities that don't apologise for who they are. They're not–

00:20:49 Mark Wright: And they– they tend to live the best lives– I– I need to be honest. The more you flex to other people's will, you know– Lord Sugar probably always gets to go and eat where he wants to eat, because not too many people are going to argue with– he– he's picking that restaurant, you know. I've got friends where I know, when I'm out with them– they've got very strong wills– they picked the restaurant, they picked the bottle of wine, you know– they just get what they want in life, and they seem pretty happy.

00:21:18 Aleksandra King: When I saw my husband at work– I mean, I was on holiday at the time, and he joined the company while I was on holiday– and he walked into the office, I was like, I'm definitely going to marry him. And then the night– yeah, yeah– the next night, we went out, you know, and I just was like, you know, do you want to have kids one day, and– he was like, yes. And then I went home to my friends, I was like, I'm gonna marry him. And that's exactly what I did, and I'm very happy. You know, because if you do what you want to do in life, and you– you know, like you're saying, Mark– like, you engineer your life– then you can– you have to be happy, because you're doing what you want, so the outcome is going to be more in your favour.

00:21:57 Mark Wright: Yeah. And I don't understand– I cannot comprehend– people who– you see them– like, I've got some– some family members like this– who say, you know, oh, you know– I think about– I'm [unclear: so?] unhappy in my career, I'm so unhappy in my life, I'm so unhappy, I'm so unhappy. And I just think: you mustn't be that unhappy, because why would you just not change it? It's so easy to– there's so many companies to work for, there's so many gyms to go and improve your– like, there is so many ways to be not where you are– but you just mustn't be uncomfortable enough. Because you– I literally– I call it, with my partner– we call it braining it out. We brain out every element of our house, of our life, of– you know, I want every bit of my house and life and business thought about– brained out. I want to just– I want to design it so– and people say, wow, this is amazing– it's on purposely amazing.

00:22:54 Aleksandra King: Yeah, but some people are also on purposely– they have victim mentality, because they kind of, like– and that sounds really horrible to say, but I have seen it in people, where they like the sort of– the being miserable, because they get attention from it, and every[one] go[es], oh no, and, you know, you can do this– and they get a lot of feedback, and in a way, that feedback is rewarding– which– which sounds horrible, but there are some people like– and you're right, they obviously don't like it– dislike it– enough to change.

00:23:25 Mark Wright: But no one's coming to change their life. Like, no one's going to magically wand them out of that situation except for them, and a lot of the time, it– it doesn't change. I– I'll give you another example. I'm getting married in the Gold Coast in December, and we sent–

00:23:41 Aleksandra King: Congratulations.

00:23:42 Mark Wright: Thank you, thank you. And obviously a lot of my friends live in the UK, and my partner's from Finland, and so there's a lot of invitations going out across the world. And some people have said to my– to my partner and I– it's, I wish you would [unclear: hold?] the wedding until we can afford to come– for the ticket, or whatever, you know– some close members of family. The issue is– which I said to my partner– they'll never be able to afford to come. In my experience, poor people are always poor, and rich people are always rich, because it's in here– nothing to do with what's in your bank account. It's a way of thinking, and once you change that way of thinking, everything else changes– and that's the hardest bit of the process to change, in most people.

00:24:28 Aleksandra King: Yeah. That's a very interesting one. Okay, so another LinkedIn post.

00:24:33 Mark Wright: Go for it. You hit me with them.

00:24:35 Aleksandra King: Okay: if you don't have haters, trolls and enemies, you aren't doing anything worthwhile. Really?

00:24:44 Mark Wright: In my experience, there is a direct– the more people that have trolled my posts, attacked me on Google reviews, on LinkedIn, on Twitter, and all of these various places– there has always been a direct correlation between the better I'm doing and the more haters I have. Right? So when I was broke– flat broke as a pancake, working at a steak restaurant, sleeping on the floor– I had no haters, I had no trolls, I couldn't get any likes on my Facebook posts. Then I won The Apprentice, and I had hundreds of thousands of followers, and all of a sudden people were saying: he looks funny, he speaks funny, he doesn't deserve to win, I know more about digital marketing than me– hang on, that person doesn't know me. And all that had– had changed was: I was doing better. I was doing something worth doing, I was doing– other people– I was doing something that other people were jealous of, and that made them dislike me, because I was being successful at it. And I found, whenever your business is doing better, you're more healthy, you're earning more, you're doing better– people start to say things about you, and comes from a place of jealousy in their own circumstances. Get– I get some pretty savage stuff. Mainly about, just, you know– I don't know what I'm talking about, I've only been successful because I was in business with Alan Sugar– all of that sort of stuff, you know, I get all of that– you know, go kill yourself, and all of that sort of stuff. But it is water off a duck's back, and sometimes– I'm going to be completely honest with you– I'm at a place in my life now where I'm so content with it, sometimes I do posts just to upset the– the trolls, because it amuses me.

00:26:42 Aleksandra King: Okay, I've got one of those. I've got one– this must be one of them. This is you responding to an article, okay, headlined: how to get 55 days off this year while only just using 25 days annual leave. Mark replies: what a time to be alive. This is the new culture that goes hand in hand with nonsense like a four-day working week and working from home. Holy guacamole. I mean, this– there's a lot in this post, okay?

00:27:14 Mark Wright: Are you bringing this up because you don't agree with my– my viewpoints, and– and they've upset yourself?

00:27:24 Aleksandra King: I'm bringing it up for two reasons. I can see that the response from the public was meaningful– like, there was a response, people had a lot to say. I['m] also bringing it up because, I guess, the way it's worded– it's definitely trying to annoy some people, because obviously it's very generalised, and you– you can't possibly make a statement like, working from home isn't good at all– because, like, you know, people work from home, and very effectively. Obviously there's people that work from home, and they work from home, like– we know, we know. So it's a very general thing. But it was just one of those Mark moments, I think, where– I'm not sure– is that a wind-up, or do you actually think this?

00:28:08 Mark Wright: I intentionally word some things to create conflict, because the– the best way to increase social media visibility is engagement.

00:28:17 Aleksandra King: So it is a wind-up. So it's not–

00:28:20 Mark Wright: Well, let me– let me finish by saying: I completely stand by that post, and I agree with all of the things that I said. And– and let's break it down, one at a time. I don't– I fundamentally, at my core, believe a four-day work week will be a disastrous situation if big companies enter into it. I believe that working from home full-time– working from home– kills the culture of a company, and it's hard to build a brand and a company culture, and retain staff, and for them to understand the values of a company that they don't go into. But I need a way of communicating with people who don't really want to hear me out, so I sometimes go for the jugular on one-liners that I know will really upset them. Because if you're sitting at home in your pyjamas, taking the biscuit, getting a full salary, and you– you're one of the people who really take the mickey, and you see my post– you are going to be– you're going to be fearful that your way of living is going to leave. And so they come hard in the paint at me, and I– I absolutely love it.

00:29:33 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I mean, I suppose it does depend on the type of business. I mean, I work with teams that, you know– they just do work from home, but my word, do they do a brilliant job. Because for those guys– like a designer that's doing a specific logo, or some sort of, you know, print that you're doing– and either they deliver it, or they don't. I couldn't care less what pyjamas they're wearing, or what biscuit they['re] eating– I literally don't care what time [they do it]– what I care about is what ends up in my inbox is something that I like, and, like, you've done a good job. And it better be on time– it better be on time– and also, you better respond, you know, when I send that text– reply, like– that efficiency. Like, you can be on the moon, I couldn't care less, as long as it comes in. But I obviously get your point that there's some businesses where you've got to have that brainstorming session, and you need that culture– I completely understand. So that's why it depends.

00:30:27 Mark Wright: Definitely. I– for– for me, the way you build a company is by having a good brand, a good culture, and good values. It's very hard to instil a culture, values, and all of that good stuff, if you never see the person that you– you know, that you're working with. And I think my concern is– people can do what they want, no one's waiting for Mark Wright to tell them what to do, let's be completely honest– but with the development of artificial intelligence, and the ability now, out of places like India, the Philippines, and all of these places– the US, the UK, Australia– they need to be very careful what you wish for. You might wish for a four-day working week; it won't be long before you have a zero-day working week, because AI and the Philippines are willing to do your work for you. And that's– I'm– you might hate me, these folks out there, but I'm on your team. I'm trying to foresee what is coming, and make sure that we all have jobs and money for the future.

00:31:38 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I– I'm– I'm totally with you on the four-day working week– I mean, that's nonsense. I agree about that– that's silly. You've got to just at least work your five working days, please, every– everyone. It's not that hard.

00:31:51 Mark Wright: If you– if you're upset about working five days a week, you need to change jobs– you're in the wrong profession, you're in wrong career. Because I love– I want to work. I race to the office on Monday– I can't get there quick enough, because I love– I love it. If you're not doing that, change jobs.

00:32:08 Aleksandra King: This brings me on to a very, very, very controversial one, where you say you don't understand businesses that close between Christmas and New Year's Eve, and that you sell more when others are closed.

00:32:25 Mark Wright: Yeah. It's just– that really upset the– the wokies, that one– that one really– that lit the [unclear: touchpaper?] on the– on– on the people in the cheap seats. And the reason, basically– I– I went to do– I was doing something– I don't know, sending– oh, [I] was moving house, and I was trying to get some quotes for some stuff for the house, and everyone– I– removal company, internet, this thing, this thing– we're closed from the 20th of December till the 17th of January. What? Oh– so I can't have internet until then, or I can't remove my stuff, and whatever, whatever, whatever. Now– and people were like, oh yeah, good luck working on your deathbed, good luck, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. Listen: people need a break. People need to go on holidays. People need a weekend. One of the best pieces of business advice I ever [got]– maybe the best– was from Alan Sugar: that he's never worked a weekend. He finishes at 5:00 on a Friday; he doesn't start again till 9:00 on Monday. I was not saying don't have a break. I was saying that organisations should be able to take orders, process customers, and still trade– to help people and– and create revenue– through holiday periods. Now, there is– there's 52 weeks in a year. The week between Christmas and New Year is one week; there's still 51 other weeks you can go on holidays, or some staff could still work that week and go on a holiday at different time. My companies do it– we do record trade in those times. Maybe there's something that, when other people are closed– people go to the– you know, if there's– all the cafes are closed, and there's one who's open, who's selling all the coffees? Sometimes, just being the only game in town is a– is a pretty powerful sales strategy.

00:34:26 Aleksandra King: Okay, again, you've– you've explained it. So the controversy was there on purpose. Because you're not saying don't go on holiday over Christmas– because obviously parents, you know, you've got to go when your kids have a holiday– they've got a break, which is normally over the Christmas period. You're going to go with your son– you're gonna, you know– you want to– that– that family time is really important, and it normally comes around that period. But you're not saying don't do that– you're just saying keep business operating, especially if it's critical business. I mean, obviously hospitals and all that, you know, that's a no-brainer. But, like, you're not saying just work, you know, work over Christmas– you're just saying–

00:35:00 Mark Wright: Christmas is my favourite time of the year. It's my favourite day of– of the year. It's my– I love it, I absolutely love it. I love sitting at the Christmas table with my family and my friends, and it's– it's the most beautiful, sacred time in my– in some of my life, is being at the Christmas table. But that doesn't mean my business is shut down. That's all I'm saying. And– and this is what I'm saying– business isn't for everyone. I think what I'm saying is the best business advice I can give you. It might sound uncomfortable– maybe you– your business doesn't want to open then– but my businesses do, and I still enjoy Christmas. But I'm just saying, spread it out– have– you might have Muslim employees that work that Christmas period, and you give them– that– Christians– that time off, and you work over Eid, or what– whatever it is.

00:35:53 Aleksandra King: Exactly, yes– so you be more flexible. You see, Mark– which is what I– what I wanted you to explain about your post– because that– that makes more sense to me than what you posted. Because obviously I agree with that, but I wouldn't agree with the just flat post, which says, you know, just, basically, work over Christmas– go– if you go, like, Mark, you as well– forget your kid, go work over Christmas. But obviously, these posts are designed for–

00:36:15 Mark Wright: Yeah– no, they– they're interesting. Here we are, talking about them, and I get so many messages and– and stuff. But look– this is my true beliefs, and when you ask me to explain them– tell me if you disagree.

00:36:30 Aleksandra King: Yeah, no, I– I actually agree with that, now that you've explained it. I agree– I agree with everything, pretty much, that you've said. So maybe– maybe except this one. This is the one post– it's the last LinkedIn post. All right– you talk about the fact that you have never met a business person– a good business person– that isn't ruthless. That triggers some emotion in me. Obviously, I come from entrepreneurship– it's, like– it's been in the family– like, I've– I've grown up living and breathing everything that business is, you know, from the ground up, all that journey, up and down, all of it. There is something about the ruthlessness in business that I have, like, a problem with, you know. I had an ex-boyfriend once– I wonder if he's listening– he lied on his application to go to– to do an MBA. You know, these business schools– they're very tough, you know, the application process– and he lied that English, you know, wasn't his first language. So he sort of, you know, manipulated the– the whole thing about his mum, and so on, for this application– and got in, and would write the exam that's easier, in English. And that really bothered me, because I was like, well, that's dishonest– you've– you don't really deserve to be in that position, you've cheated. And you know what he said to me? He goes: you know, people like me are going to get ahead in life, because I– I know how to play the system– I know– I'm ruthless– I– you know, because there are people out there that will sell their kidney to get ahead in business. And he was sort of saying that to me, and never have I ever been so put off a man in my life, you know– human, like– I couldn't understand, you know– I don't relate that.

00:38:36 Mark Wright: I think you did well making him an ex-boyfriend– let's– let's, uh, say that. And the– the answer is: what he was doing was not ruthlessness– it was dishonesty. And when I talk about ruthlessness, I mean resilience, and I mean toughness. Every successful business leader I've worked with, or ever met– speaking, doing podcasts, on my journey, across boardroom tables– to be successful, you need a level of resilience, and toughness, and decision-making ability, that is– I deem– ruthless. And it comes down to what the definition of ruthless actually means. And it is not being dishonest, it is not taking advantage of people, it is not doing anything at all costs. It's making the tough decisions, at the right times, and doing what needs to be done. And if you do it with a resilience, and an honesty, and an integrity– that is ruthlessness that makes you successful, and I truly believe you can't be successful without that.

00:39:51 Aleksandra King: Right, okay. So let's unpack the definition of ruthlessness, which is actually, according to the Oxford dictionary: having or showing no pity or compassion for others.

00:40:04 Mark Wright: Well, then– then– then I– I've used the wrong word.

00:40:07 Aleksandra King: I think you've used the wrong word. I think you used the wrong word.

00:40:11 Mark Wright: I– if I was looking for one word, it's toughness. Toughness is–

00:40:17 Aleksandra King: Ruthlessness sounds better than toughness, right?

00:40:19 Mark Wright: It does– it sounds– sounds more robust, yeah. So I– I don't mean at all costs– absolutely not. Because you– you could go and set up a Ponzi scheme and just steal money, if you wanted to be successful– make money– but that, to me, is not successful. That– that's– that's just making money at– at any cost, and that's ruthlessness, and that, you know– that– that's not the right way to go about it.

00:40:46 Aleksandra King: Yeah. I think I'm be– I'm being a little bit tough on you there, because of– you know, I've read ahead of this– I was doing research on this, and especially this post, and I actually came across so many articles– you know, business articles– you know, the Entrepreneur, there, that– credible, you know, journalists– writing about ruthlessness in business, but in a very, very positive way. So it's not like it's un– unheard of, and unusual, for you to say that. I will just say– when you talk about ruthless business people, I would consider one of those to be Steve Jobs. You know, I think the way that he operated was a little bit ruthless– not just with the people– his team– like, come on, why aren't you working later hours? Let's go, let's go, we need to get the product out. I don't care that you haven't eaten, I don't care that it's 3:00 in the morning– you got to work. And he was also incredibly ruthless with himself. He had no pity or compassion with the fact that maybe he didn't eat breakfast, he's been in the same clothes for three days– these are real stories– he would not even get changed sometimes, because why– why would you? There's no time, you have to work. So he was incredibly ruthless, and I feel like that– there's going to be a price, right? And he paid, I think, with his life– he gave his absolute health for this.

00:42:05 Mark Wright: I agree. You know, I agree. I love Steve Jobs, for– for– for multiple reasons– but he was– he was ruthless in probably every sense of the word. You know, if you even look at the way– what– how he was with his daughter, and all of that sort of stuff– he– he really– he really was ruthless. But he was a incredible businessman. If you read the Glassdoor reviews for Elon Musk's company– he is a ruthless guy. He is– there is no doubt about the way he operates– he's– he's a ruthless guy. But coming back from that: I believe you have to be tough and resilient to be successful in business. I– I've just seen too many people– there's too much that happens to you, on a weekly basis– for– if you cannot handle pressure, stress– to– to make it– it's just too difficult. And that's what I was trying to get across in that post.

00:43:03 Aleksandra King: Yeah. Well, I think there was one thing he said as well, which I quite liked. Because obviously, I walked off The Apprentice– it wasn't for me– so I– I will always do what's right for me. And maybe there's a ruthlessness about me, because it's like, oh, you took other people's place, and someone else could have– something, something. But then the ruthless side of me is like, well, hang on a minute– I got myself in, I will get myself out, if that's what– I feels right for me. No one is going to tell me what– I'm like a cat– you can't make me do anything I don't want to do. Like, there is no way on God's earth I'm going to do something I don't want to do. And he was the same, in the sense that he was like: if you w[ant] to get out of something– if something isn't working, if it's not aligned with your– your deep values– then you've got to change course. Like, in that way, I agreed.

00:43:54 Mark Wright: But I can tell, in two minutes of meeting you on this podcast tonight– you– you are what I would call a ruthless, tough person, without a shadow of a doubt. I know that you are a certain type of person that can handle pressure, that can handle stress, that can handle tough conversations– I know that straight away, by talk– by talking to you, in– in– in two minutes. And my friends have this, like, joke about me– they call me Houdini– because as soon as I'm in a situation where I don't want to be there– a meeting, a night out, a dinner– I don't even say goodbye to people– I'm just not there anymore. And– and, like you with The Apprentice, or– or– or anything– as soon as I'm in a situation, I think, this isn't for me– I'm off, I'm out, I'm out the door.

00:44:42 Aleksandra King: It's just a waste of time, isn't it, Mark? I've taken up a lot of your time. I've got three last, very quick questions, and this has come from the public– so I've just chosen the top three. I said, I'm interviewing you– let's see what have you guys got. So, first one– this is really funny– have people ever got you confused with Mark Wright from TOWIE– The Only Way Is–

00:45:02 Mark Wright: I know, know– yeah. I mean, this is probably the number one thing I get asked now, and– all the– all of the time we get confused. I get letters for him, I get emails from him, I get social media DMs from people that certainly think I'm him– we get confused all the time. I've met him, and he's a charming guy, he's a lovely guy, and he– he's done incredibly well, and he's a lot more famous– quote unquote– well-known than I am. And– but he deserves all of his success.

00:45:38 Aleksandra King: Okay. And what was your favourite task on The Apprentice, and why?

00:45:44 Mark Wright: We had one at a farm show– the Bath [and] West farm show– and I sold 11 hot tubs. And it was my favourite task, because I did well, and we won– but– but I just loved the selling, and I loved being out in the public, selling to people. And it felt like– when you're trapped in that house with the same people– I felt like I was getting a bit of, like– like a bit of, like– being in jail, you know? Like, I felt like I was trapped, almost– like you said before. And when I was out at the farm show, selling with the public, I kind of felt like I was normal again– like I was, like, part of the people again– and there was– there was something nice to that as well.

00:46:24 Aleksandra King: Okay, last question: how much time do you really get, to get ready, in the mornings? People love this.

00:46:31 Mark Wright: Why is this– can I ask you– because this is– the– out of all the questions I get asked, the two biggest questions are: what's Alan Sugar like–

00:46:40 Aleksandra King: Yes.

00:46:41 Mark Wright: –and, when the phone rings, do we really have 20 minutes to– I must have been asked this [unclear: a thousand times?].

00:46:47 Aleksandra King: They want to know– loads of people, yeah.

00:46:49 Mark Wright: And I– as you will know– it's true. Yeah– you don't–

00:46:52 Aleksandra King: I mean, obviously– because I couldn't sleep, so I– I was, like, next to– I slept next to the window, so I could hear them sneaking by and parking their little cars, and I knew– I knew they were on their way. So I was kind of, like, mentally– I was mentally prepared for them anyway. So– sort of, yeah. But it is really short, isn't it? It's just–

00:47:11 Mark Wright: So really, really short– and it's really, really early– like, 4:00 a.m. in the morning. I just remember it being so early. And– but, like I said, I loved every minute of it.

00:47:24 Aleksandra King: Brilliant. Mark, thank you so much for coming on this podcast– like, you've been absolutely amazing. Thank you for your honesty– like, it's been super interesting. Thank you.

00:47:37 Mark Wright: Thank you. Thank you for your tough questions, and inviting me on. It's been a pleasure to be with you, and hear my LinkedIn posts read out loud– that's the first time that's ever happened. But I– I wish you every success– I know it's going to be a great podcast– and thanks again for having me on.

00:47:51 Aleksandra King: Thank you, and likewise.

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